Blue Jays Discussion: MVP: Most Valuable Pillar

[Canada4Gold]

If your name is Ryan Goins I agree. For Bautista I think he's got a better shot to hit a homerun than score via hits and small ball.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

why? because that fits your argument?

I'll make an illogical assumption as well then since you like them. I'll assume Bautista and EE only hits homeruns or outs in the 9th. Oh look, that makes me win the argument

Thats what i think. My argument is what i think. I'm not passing my argument off as the truth im saying this is what i think and unless i have evidence proving otherwise i will continue to think this way and criticize based off what i think

Me criticizing based off what i think does not equal me forcing my opinion on people. I understand i could be wrong and i will change my way of thinking if im wrong

I find it funny that im actively searching for someone to disprove what i think yet people rather just talk then show math or stats. As the person who is not trying to force my way of thinking on people i feel that i dont really have to back up my assumption and i will readily admit i could easily be wrong

 

[Natey]

Is Mooney hurt? I'd prefer him to Goins.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I find it funny that im actively searching for someone to disprove what i think yet people rather just talk then show math or stats. As the person who is not trying to force my way of thinking on people i feel that i dont really have to back up my assumption and i will readily admit i could easily be wrong

I don't know of a mathematical way to disprove your theory because you can't differentitate between hitters who swung for the fences and those who were trying to get on base, unless you go abck and ask them when it happens.

Is Mooney hurt? I'd prefer him to Goins.

God no, Kawasaki sucks defensively and offensively. He just seems clutch which is imaginary, and hit singles occasionally which he can't do now as much with the slow turf, and is funny.

Goins is a million times better. At least he's good defensively if he can't hit. Which he has been able to do in the spring.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

I don't know of a mathematical way to disprove your theory because you can't differentitate between hitters who swung for the fences and those who were trying to get on base, unless you go abck and ask them when it happens.



God no, Kawasaki sucks defensively and offensively. He just seems clutch which is imaginary, and hit singles occasionally which he can't do now as much with the slow turf, and is funny.

Goins is a million times better. At least he's good defensively if he can't hit. Which he has been able to do in the spring.

Well then...Perhaps dont speak with so much certainty and leave room for the possibility you are wrong like i did

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Is Mooney hurt? I'd prefer him to Goins.

Aside from seeing a lot of pitches Kawasaki is bad. Imo worse then Goins defensively with no room to improve offensively. Im not sure if Goins is better offensively atm(i think he is) but i think he has more room to grow

 

[Blitzkrug]

The line up is fine.

I'd be more concerned about the bullpen at this point.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Is kawasaki even on a MLB contract?

If so...

Could the bluejays just not spend the mil for Goins and Kawasaki and use it on a replacement SS/2B who can be a positive or break even war player?

 

[Natey]

God no, Kawasaki sucks defensively and offensively. He just seems clutch which is imaginary, and hit singles occasionally which he can't do now as much with the slow turf, and is funny.

Goins is a million times better. At least he's good defensively if he can't hit. Which he has been able to do in the spring.

Anyone can hit in the spring.

Kawasaki is alright offensively. He's not perfect, but he's adequate for a bench player/injury replacement. He's definitely weaker than Goins defensively, but he's not awful. 5 errors in 781 innings at SS isn't going to hurt us that much. His range is a little weak, but he's always above league average in fielding percentage.

Plus, he's just fun. And I'd venture to say, as a SS.. he's definitely a 1+ WAR player.

Aside from seeing a lot of pitches Kawasaki is bad. Imo worse then Goins defensively with no room to improve offensively. Im not sure if Goins is better offensively atm(i think he is) but i think he has more room to grow

Kawasaki has had 563 PA's as a Blue Jay and posted a .327 OBP%. That's not lighting up the world, but it's pretty good for an injury replacement, IMO. He improved his average by 30 points last year, while his OBP% went up slightly.

Goins' average went down 60 points and his OBP% went down 55 points in his second year. He is very good defensively, but I don't see Kawasaki as a huge black hole defensively at SS.

I don't see much room for Goins to grow, maybe that's why I'm hard on him. Never been high on him. I'm not high on Kawasaki either, I just think he's a better player. If I saw the potential some do for Goins, I'd understand.

Is kawasaki even on a MLB contract?

If so...

Could the bluejays just not spend the mil for Goins and Kawasaki and use it on a replacement SS/2B who can be a positive or break even war player?

Both are above 0, but not by much. Goins posted a 0.1 WAR last year and Kawasaki was a 0.4 WAR. Difference is Goins has always had the majority of his appearances at his best position, where-as Kawasaki was forced to play 2B a lot last year. At mostly SS, the year before Kawasaki posted a much higher WAR. And I'm sure it'd be higher last year if you just accounted his SS games. Goins WAR was pretty solid a couple years back, but it went down harshly last year.

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Anyone can hit in the spring.

Kawasaki is alright offensively. He's not perfect, but he's adequate for a bench player/injury replacement. He's definitely weaker than Goins defensively, but he's not awful. 5 errors in 781 innings at SS isn't going to hurt us that much. His range is a little weak, but he's always above league average in fielding percentage.

Plus, he's just fun. And I'd venture to say, as a SS.. he's definitely a 1+ WAR player.


Kawasaki has had 563 PA's as a Blue Jay and posted a .327 OBP%. That's not lighting up the world, but it's pretty good for an injury replacement, IMO. He improved his average by 30 points last year, while his OBP% went up slightly.

Goins' average went down 60 points and his OBP% went down 55 points in his second year. He is very good defensively, but I don't see Kawasaki as a huge black hole defensively at SS.

I don't see much room for Goins to grow, maybe that's why I'm hard on him. Never been high on him. I'm not high on Kawasaki either, I just think he's a better player. If I saw the potential some do for Goins, I'd understand.

Kawasaki doesnt have great range defensively and im not sure his arm plays at short as opposed to 2nd. In reality were arguing between two nearly equal non consequential players.One might be slightly better then the other. There is no huge gap.

Goins being younger and seemingly having a good work ethic might give people hope for improvement i suppose well kawasaki is older.

I always hear that Goins had good winter ball numbers and was good in triple A before his call up. We also saw him have a decent hitting streak in his last call up

 

[Natey]

Kawasaki doesnt have great range defensively and im not sure his arm plays at short as opposed to 2nd. In reality were arguing between two nearly equal non consequential players.One might be slightly better then the other. There is no huge gap

I said his range is weak, but I disagree that there is no gap. I think the difference (at SS anyway), is probably about a 1.0 WAR player.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Goins has 1.5 WAR in 102 games, Kawasaki 1.4 in 239 games. If you base that on 162 games for both then Goins is 1.4 WAR better. And that's with a .188 average in 67 games last year. The defensive component he brings just puts him head and shoulders above Kawasaki.

If you're talking backup infielder you want someone who excels at something. Goins can be an defensive replacement late in games. Kawasaki can't, you don't want to play him for any reason ever because he's both a offensive and defensive downgrade compared to your everyday players.

Goins is also way younger so there is room to improve, even if you don't see it.

Kawaski should be like 5th in line to be on the roster. Izturis, Goins, Tolleson, Diaz, maybe even more before him. I can't even believe we're having this conversation. He was literally being a 3rd base coach in Buffalo last year because he couldn't get any playing time.

As for spending the 1 million we are on Goins and Kawasaki on a competent replacement, where are you going to get a good replacement for a million? Izturis is making, what 3? Good luck

 

[Vesa Awesaka]

Goins has 1.5 WAR in 102 games, Kawasaki 1.4 in 239 games. If you base that on 162 games for both then Goins is 1.4 WAR better. And that's with a .188 average in 67 games last year. The defensive component he brings just puts him head and shoulders above Kawasaki.

If you're talking backup infielder you want someone who excels at something. Goins can be an defensive replacement late in games. Kawasaki can't, you don't want to play him for any reason ever because he's both a offensive and defensive downgrade compared to your everyday players.

Goins is also way younger so there is room to improve, even if you don't see it.

Kawaski should be like 5th in line to be on the roster. Izturis, Goins, Tolleson, Diaz, maybe even more before him. I can't even believe we're having this conversation. He was literally being a 3rd base coach in Buffalo last year because he couldn't get any playing time.

As for spending the 1 million we are on Goins and Kawasaki on a competent replacement, where are you going to get a good replacement for a million? Izturis is making, what 3? Good luck

Izturis was paid 3 to be a starting 2nd b no? Just asking if its possible to acquire a decent back up middle infielder especially with Reyes being so injury prone and there being quite a few question marks at 2nd base before we knew if travis would play at the MLB level.

Not like its a big deal. I dont hate Goins in that role.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I think Goins fits that role perfectly. Amazing defensively, there is some potential that he isn't a complete black hole offensively, even like .220 is fine with the defense he brings. Our lineup can handle that especially from a backup player. And if he fails you have Izturis there when he gets healthy, I'm not sure why you need someone else.