Confirmed with Link: Muzzin signs 5-year extension

[GoldenBearHockey]

2013, obvious typo as I said "Hickey was claimed on waivers on January 23, 2015, or a year after"

And again, I said A YEAR AFTER, not right before he went on waivers. A YEAR BEFORE.

A year after, a year before etc,

Doesn't change the fact that Hickey did not have the value of a 2nd or 3rd round pick and if you think he did, you are either delusional or you overhype LA prospects,

That's like saying we can trade Nick Shore for a 2015 2nd round pick, how many teams do you think would do that? I can answer that for you, raise your hand in a clinched fist manner, yea, that's a zero.

Seriously, losing Hickey on waivers is nothing, neither would losing any one of our young players, you make it sound like the end of the world, and in reality, losing players on waivers means you have an incredibly deep team and system, it's the cost of doing business.

With LA's defense,

Doughty, Muzzin, McNabb, Voynov, Greene, Martinez, you think that they would move one of them, or let one of them walk to make room for a guy who may or may not be ready etc, while they are vying for championships?

Greene will more than likely be traded before his deal is up, probably in the last year of the deal, if any one of the aforementioned kids are ready to go, if they aren't ready and we lose them to waivers and keep Greene, no big deal either.

 

[kingsfan]

A year after, a year before etc,

Doesn't change the fact that Hickey did not have the value of a 2nd or 3rd round pick and if you think he did, you are either delusional or you overhype LA prospects,

That's like saying we can trade Nick Shore for a 2015 2nd round pick, how many teams do you think would do that? I can answer that for you, raise your hand in a clinched fist manner, yea, that's a zero.

Seriously, losing Hickey on waivers is nothing, neither would losing any one of our young players, you make it sound like the end of the world, and in reality, losing players on waivers means you have an incredibly deep team and system, it's the cost of doing business.

With LA's defense,

Doughty, Muzzin, McNabb, Voynov, Greene, Martinez, you think that they would move one of them, or let one of them walk to make room for a guy who may or may not be ready etc, while they are vying for championships?

Greene will more than likely be traded before his deal is up, probably in the last year of the deal, if any one of the aforementioned kids are ready to go, if they aren't ready and we lose them to waivers and keep Greene, no big deal either.

Sorta like how Vey didn't fetch a 2nd huh? Yeah, how many predicted that before it happened.

And I'm delusional.

In the right market you can maximize your assets. DL did on Vey, he didn't on Hickey and yes, he could on Shore if he felt like it.

And again, I did not say anything about moving ANY of the D you said will play in LA. How often does that need repeating?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Sorta like how Vey didn't fetch a 2nd huh? Yeah, how many predicted that before it happened.

And I'm delusional.

In the right market you can maximize your assets. DL did on Vey, he didn't on Hickey and yes, he could on Shore if he felt like it.

And again, I did not say anything about moving ANY of the D you said will play in LA. How often does that need repeating?

Yes, you are delusional, if you think that Hickey had the value of a 2nd - 3rd rounder, I like the Vey comparison though, completely neglecting the fact of different positions, different scenarios, Vey actually played a few games in the NHL before being traded, etc.

You think he can get a 2nd or a 3rd for Shore?

Really?

Wow....I think that just ends this conversation now and on the agree to disagree note...

 

[kingsfan]

Yes, you are delusional, if you think that Hickey had the value of a 2nd - 3rd rounder, I like the Vey comparison though, completely neglecting the fact of different positions, different scenarios, Vey actually played a few games in the NHL before being traded, etc.

You think he can get a 2nd or a 3rd for Shore?

Really?

Wow....I think that just ends this conversation now and on the agree to disagree note...

So I give an example where he got a 2nd, you can only reply that basically 'I know DL couldn't do that for Shore and Hickey' and we are supposed to just bow to your powers of perception?

And if you think 18 games of NHL play and being a forward suddenly jumps your value way up, you are delusional. D-men are at far more of a premium than forwards, that's Hockey 101. It takes a lot more than 18 games to negate that.

 

[Captain Mittens*]

Thomas Hockey... What might have been... But he also might have clock blocked Voynov or Jazz Hands.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

So I give an example where he got a 2nd, you can only reply that basically 'I know DL couldn't do that for Shore and Hickey' and we are supposed to just bow to your powers of perception?

And if you think 18 games of NHL play and being a forward suddenly jumps your value way up, you are delusional. D-men are at far more of a premium than forwards, that's Hockey 101. It takes a lot more than 18 games to negate that.

Completely different situations, not sure how else to tell you that.

Different players, different positions, different upsides, different skill sets, different, everything.

And yet you think because one thing happened, the other thing must have been able to happen,

Interesting...

BTW, do you think Lombardi did not shop Hickey around trying to trade him before submitting him to waivers?

 

[kingsfan]

Completely different situations, not sure how else to tell you that.

Different players, different positions, different upsides, different skill sets, different, everything.

And yet you think because one thing happened, the other thing must have been able to happen,

Interesting...

BTW, do you think Lombardi did not shop Hickey around trying to trade him before submitting him to waivers?

Btw, can you not read? I said already he likely shopped him. My point was WHEN he shopped. Shopping him during training camp after the lockout when teams had 10 days to determine their line ups does not present a reasonable timeframe to get anything. Shopping him at the trade deadline or the draft before the lockout may have however.

Also, I never said it 'must' happen, I said if Vey can fetch a 2nd than there's reasonable cause to consider that it is possible that Hickey could have fetched something as well. DL traded Vey, at the draft, knowing that Vey would be in tough to make the team out of camp and would require waivers if he didn't make it. If he had done the same with Hickey perhaps he could have got something for him at the draft.

But if you want to sit there and think it's completely unrealistic simply because Vey is a forward and Hickey isn't, I won't stop you.

 

[Captain Mittens*]

Btw, can you not read? I said already he likely shopped him. My point was WHEN he shopped. Shopping him during training camp after the lockout when teams had 10 days to determine their line ups does not present a reasonable timeframe to get anything. Shopping him at the trade deadline or the draft before the lockout may have however.

Also, I never said it 'must' happen, I said if Vey can fetch a 2nd than there's reasonable cause to consider that it is possible that Hickey could have fetched something as well. DL traded Vey, at the draft, knowing that Vey would be in tough to make the team out of camp and would require waivers if he didn't make it. If he had done the same with Hickey perhaps he could have got something for him at the draft.

But if you want to sit there and think it's completely unrealistic simply because Vey is a forward and Hickey isn't, I won't stop you.

Oy Vey! (I am super stoked than I can use this!)

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

In light of the T.J. Brodie extension, Muzzin's deal is a steal. Number two dmen are pushing $5M.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Btw, can you not read? I said already he likely shopped him. My point was WHEN he shopped. Shopping him during training camp after the lockout when teams had 10 days to determine their line ups does not present a reasonable timeframe to get anything. Shopping him at the trade deadline or the draft before the lockout may have however.

Also, I never said it 'must' happen, I said if Vey can fetch a 2nd than there's reasonable cause to consider that it is possible that Hickey could have fetched something as well. DL traded Vey, at the draft, knowing that Vey would be in tough to make the team out of camp and would require waivers if he didn't make it. If he had done the same with Hickey perhaps he could have got something for him at the draft.

But if you want to sit there and think it's completely unrealistic simply because Vey is a forward and Hickey isn't, I won't stop you.

Only one slight problem with your scenario,

DL knew that Vey wasn't going to make the team, not with Kopitar, Carter, Stoll, Richards, Lewis, etc up the middle, he had the luxury of being able to shop him at the draft.

With Hickey, you had Doughty, Mitchell, Greene, and Voynov...who? Muzzin and Martinez were not established, they were playing for spots, Hickey still had a chance at making the roster...

Like I said, completely different players, positions, and scenarios, but if you want to boil that down to one is a D and one is a F, I won't stop you...

 

[kingsfan]

Only one slight problem with your scenario,

DL knew that Vey wasn't going to make the team, not with Kopitar, Carter, Stoll, Richards, Lewis, etc up the middle, he had the luxury of being able to shop him at the draft.

With Hickey, you had Doughty, Mitchell, Greene, and Voynov...who? Muzzin and Martinez were not established, they were playing for spots, Hickey still had a chance at making the roster...

Like I said, completely different players, positions, and scenarios, but if you want to boil that down to one is a D and one is a F, I won't stop you...

Martinez wasn't established enough? He played 51 games the previous season and all 20 playoff games in our cup run. You remember that Alec Martinez don't you, the same one that I think was a minus player for just one game in the entire playoffs? How much more established do you want?

Also, you completely omitted Scuderi. So our D was Doughty, Mitchell, Greene, Voynov, Scuderi and Martinez, with Hickey and Muzzin battling as well. Oh yeah, we also had Davis Drewiske in the mix too.

Got another straw to grasp at here? At least research stuff before you post it.

 

[driller1]

Btw, can you not read? I said already he likely shopped him. My point was WHEN he shopped. Shopping him during training camp after the lockout when teams had 10 days to determine their line ups does not present a reasonable timeframe to get anything. Shopping him at the trade deadline or the draft before the lockout may have however.

Also, I never said it 'must' happen, I said if Vey can fetch a 2nd than there's reasonable cause to consider that it is possible that Hickey could have fetched something as well. DL traded Vey, at the draft, knowing that Vey would be in tough to make the team out of camp and would require waivers if he didn't make it. If he had done the same with Hickey perhaps he could have got something for him at the draft.

But if you want to sit there and think it's completely unrealistic simply because Vey is a forward and Hickey isn't, I won't stop you.

Hickey's value doesn't fluctuate between a 2nd-3rd rounder as you previously stated to waiver wire fodder. We get what you're saying. Its just wrong. The dude's perceived value by the league is what the market is set at. Hickey didn't get hurt nor did he have a stellar playoffs; his value neither increased nor decreased in the time frame that you are talking about.

Also, most deals at the trade deadline are done within 10 days of the actual deadline. (In fact, most deals are done within 3 days of the deadline). I don't know how you can argue that 10 days isn't enough during training camp but that there was plenty of time at the trade deadline.

There are plenty of reasons why Vey got traded for a 2nd and Hickey didn't. Different situations, skills, and most importantly projection of future success at the NHL level.

 

[kingsfan]

Hickey's value doesn't fluctuate between a 2nd-3rd rounder as you previously stated to waiver wire fodder. We get what you're saying. Its just wrong. The dude's perceived value by the league is what the market is set at. Hickey didn't get hurt nor did he have a stellar playoffs; his value neither increased nor decreased in the time frame that you are talking about.

Also, most deals at the trade deadline are done within 10 days of the actual deadline. (In fact, most deals are done within 3 days of the deadline). I don't know how you can argue that 10 days isn't enough during training camp but that there was plenty of time at the trade deadline.

There are plenty of reasons why Vey got traded for a 2nd and Hickey didn't. Different situations, skills, and most importantly projection of future success at the NHL level.

10 days at training camp versus 10 days at the trade deadline are hugely different. I don't know how else to explain that to you if you don't understand it. Especially for unproven players like Hickey and Vey.

 

[driller1]

10 days at training camp versus 10 days at the trade deadline are hugely different. I don't know how else to explain that to you if you don't understand it. Especially for unproven players like Hickey and Vey.

Hickey sucks. He's an undersized d-man with a history of injuries. No team wanted him for draft picks, certainly not a 2nd or 3rd rounder. I don't know how else to explain that to you if you don't understand it.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Martinez wasn't established enough? He played 51 games the previous season and all 20 playoff games in our cup run. You remember that Alec Martinez don't you, the same one that I think was a minus player for just one game in the entire playoffs? How much more established do you want?

Also, you completely omitted Scuderi. So our D was Doughty, Mitchell, Greene, Voynov, Scuderi and Martinez, with Hickey and Muzzin battling as well. Oh yeah, we also had Davis Drewiske in the mix too.

Got another straw to grasp at here? At least research stuff before you post it.

51 games is established? Are you kidding me? He was still fighting for a spot with Muzzin,

As far as Scuderi, yes, he was there, so you have 4 guys fighting for one spot, with Drewiske never really having a chance, 3 guys for one spot, and they let them fight it out, and Hickey didn't make the grade, in fact, he was waived in January of 2013, not out of training camp, not after given chances etc,

Simple fact is, he was given a chance at beating out Martinez, and Muzzin, and couldn't do it. When DL found out he couldn't make the grade, he tried to shop him and found there was no market for him, not sure why you would have wanted him to trade him when it was unclear of who would make the grade

You have Vey who has ZERO options as he wasn't going to replace Kopitar, Carter, Richards, Stoll, Lewis etc.

 

[kingsfan]

Hickey sucks. He's an undersized d-man with a history of injuries. No team wanted him for draft picks, certainly not a 2nd or 3rd rounder. I don't know how else to explain that to you if you don't understand it.

He had one major injury, that was in 2009. Other than that he's missed a maximum of nine games in a season since the 2005-2006 season which dates back to junior. Since we waived him, he's played 126 games, all in the NHL, and on a less than great Islanders team he's been a +16 over that time span and averaged 16:51, 18:52, and now 19:54 respectively per season in ice time. He's a top four defenseman on an NHL team.

Yeah, he really sucks.

 

[kingsfan]

51 games is established? Are you kidding me? He was still fighting for a spot with Muzzin,

As far as Scuderi, yes, he was there, so you have 4 guys fighting for one spot, with Drewiske never really having a chance, 3 guys for one spot, and they let them fight it out, and Hickey didn't make the grade, in fact, he was waived in January of 2013, not out of training camp, not after given chances etc,

Simple fact is, he was given a chance at beating out Martinez, and Muzzin, and couldn't do it. When DL found out he couldn't make the grade, he tried to shop him and found there was no market for him, not sure why you would have wanted him to trade him when it was unclear of who would make the grade

You have Vey who has ZERO options as he wasn't going to replace Kopitar, Carter, Richards, Stoll, Lewis etc.

Wow. DO SOME RESEARCH!

Hickey was waived out of camp. Do you not remember we had a lockout that year? Training camps were in January, it's why we had a 48 game season. Jeez....

Secondly, you say that a guy with 51 games wasn't established, yet you claim Voynov is. You know how many games Voynov had at that point in his career? 54.

I guess those extra three games made all the difference in the world huh?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Wasn't a top anything when he was waived

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Wow. DO SOME RESEARCH!

Hickey was waived out of camp. Do you not remember we had a lockout that year? Training camps were in January, it's why we had a 48 game season. Jeez....

Secondly, you say that a guy with 51 games wasn't established, yet you claim Voynov is. You know how many games Voynov had at that point in his career? 54.

I guess those extra three games made all the difference in the world huh?

Forgot about the lockout,

And no, Martinez was not as established as Voynov, Voynov played three full years in the AHL, was more acclimated to the pro game than Martinez, and quite simply, has more natural talent than Martinez.

Martinez played a year and a half in the A, and then was called up, but was never able to fully establish himself, all the way up to last year one can argue.

But you are going to think what you are going to think, regardless, you think putting Hickey on waivers was bad asset management, you are probably in the minority with that.

 

[driller1]

He had one major injury, that was in 2009. Other than that he's missed a maximum of nine games in a season since the 2005-2006 season which dates back to junior. Since we waived him, he's played 126 games, all in the NHL, and on a less than great Islanders team he's been a +16 over that time span and averaged 16:51, 18:52, and now 19:54 respectively per season in ice time. He's a top four defenseman on an NHL team.

Yeah, he really sucks.

He's the Isles #6 d-man. Let's not get carried away. He's improved a great deal since he was with the Kings. I wish him nothing but the best - seemed like a kid with heart. But he's hardly a top 4 d-man.

At the time, he didn't have trade value. It happens. Like the Kings signing Kyle Quincy off waivers. This is why the CBA was drafted the way it was - to give some of these kids stuck in insanely deep organizations a chance.

 

[Captain Mittens*]

 

[kingsfan]

Wasn't a top anything when he was waived

Neither was Vey when he was traded, which was my entire point.....

Forgot about the lockout,

And no, Martinez was not as established as Voynov, Voynov played three full years in the AHL, was more acclimated to the pro game than Martinez, and quite simply, has more natural talent than Martinez.

Martinez played a year and a half in the A, and then was called up, but was never able to fully establish himself, all the way up to last year one can argue.

But you are going to think what you are going to think, regardless, you think putting Hickey on waivers was bad asset management, you are probably in the minority with that.

So Voynov was NHL established because he played more AHL time? I guess Andrew Campbell was a veritable stud? You are changing your argument each time I defeat your point, but whatever, enjoy your thoughts. There's nothing wrong with calling bad asset management, DL's done it before and will do it again. All GM's do.

He's the Isles #6 d-man. Let's not get carried away. He's improved a great deal since he was with the Kings. I wish him nothing but the best - seemed like a kid with heart. But he's hardly a top 4 d-man.

At the time, he didn't have trade value. It happens. Like the Kings signing Kyle Quincy off waivers. This is why the CBA was drafted the way it was - to give some of these kids stuck in insanely deep organizations a chance.

The only reason Quincey wasn't traded by Detroit was due to a medical issue:

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/nhl/rum...nearly-traded-for-Kyle-Quincey?urn=nhl,195831

Operating inside a bubble, up against the waiver wire is not very conducive to making a trade. Detroit was in a similar situation and thought they had mad it work, but medical issues stalled it. Since it was the start of the season, similar to Hickey, there wasn't a lot of other options. That happens coming out of camp when most teams already have their own unproven players they want to give a shot to. Most teams would rather see what their own drafted and homegrown players can do rather than trade for someone else, not to mention those teams already spent a full summer signing players to fill holes.

At the trade deadline or the entry draft thought, that's a different mindset, Vey being an example for that. Vancouver felt he'd be a fit on the team. If they had gone through the entire off-season, maybe they sign a guy in UFA that can do the same job and they decline to trade for Vey in September. And do you see Vey making the Kings out of camp? Maybe, maybe not, just like the Hickey situation.

As for Hickey, I'll let overall ice time dictate best where he slots in on the Islanders blueline. Following the waiver claim he was eating up 16:51 a game in icetime which was 6th on the team, though 5th if you don't count Brian Strait who missed two-thirds of the season. Last season he was 6th as well at 18:52 a game, but if you ignore Visnovsky and Czuczman, who played a combined 37 games (and really Czuczman was just a trial run as a college UFA after the Islanders were pretty much eliminated from the playoffs), he was 4th. This season, which granted is quite short yet, he's 4th at 19:54, just two seconds per game behind Nick Leddy.

I'd say overall, he's been a #4 in NYI, and clearly his ice time is increasing as the seasons go on.

As a comparision, Muzzin got 17:53 in 2012-2013 and 19:01 last season. He hasn't played this season. He was 5th and 4th respectively in ice time for LA those seasons.

I'm not saying Hickey is as good as Muzzin, I think LA made the right choice between the two, I just feel Hickey, if shopped at the trade deadline or at the draft, could have fetched something. I suggest a 2nd or 3rd based on what Vey fetched for us. I don't see that as outlandish in any way, shape or form.

 

[cyclones22]

The problem with your scenario is you're assuming the Kings brass knew they were going to keep Muzzin over Hickey at the trade deadline of the previous season or the draft. 20/20 hindsight. Obviously, they didn't, otherwise they would've traded Hickey earlier rather than try and pass him through waivers. It's way more likely they were still unsure who was going to get the nod of the 2 waiver eligible defensemen and they decided they would let the competition play out in training camp and be sure they were choosing the right one to not waive and risk losing the other, than making an earlier decision with less information. They obviously made the right choice.

You're free to view losing Hickey to waivers as bad asset management. When the front office's due diligence leads to the long term signing of a first pairing defensemen, who was lights out in the last Cup run, I don't think DL and company are losing any sleep over waiting to decide between waiving one of Muzzin or Hickey. They may have lost sleep then, but not now. It actually takes a lot of confidence in your scouts and evaluators to completely overlook any draft position status when making the call. Hickey being a top 5 pick and Muzzin being a free agent signing.

 

[kingsfan]

The problem with your scenario is you're assuming the Kings brass knew they were going to keep Muzzin over Hickey at the trade deadline of the previous season or the draft. 20/20 hindsight. Obviously, they didn't, otherwise they would've traded Hickey earlier rather than try and pass him through waivers. It's way more likely they were still unsure who was going to get the nod of the 2 waiver eligible defensemen and they decided they would let the competition play out in training camp and be sure they were choosing the right one to not waive and risk losing the other, than making an earlier decision with less information. They obviously made the right choice.

You're free to view losing Hickey to waivers as bad asset management. When the front office's due diligence leads to the long term signing of a first pairing defensemen, who was lights out in the last Cup run, I don't think DL and company are losing any sleep over waiting to decide between waiving one of Muzzin or Hickey. They may have lost sleep then, but not now. It actually takes a lot of confidence in your scouts and evaluators to completely overlook any draft position status when making the call. Hickey being a top 5 pick and Muzzin being a free agent signing.

And I'm not losing sleep over it either. As I said above, I think they made the right call. My concern was that they failed to maximize an asset, or even recoup anything for that asset.

As I noted above as well, the Kings were fairly deep on D going into that camp and both Muzzin and Hickey were waiver eligible. They knew they'd lose one. Yes, they likely didn't know which one they'd keep, but really the same could be said for Vey and Andreoff. Both would have required waivers if demoted, both were battling for a lower line spot (albeit likely different spots to a degree). LA knew they couldn't fit both in, they elected to trade Vey at the draft rather than battle it out in camp and risk losing one for nothing. That's how I'd rather have seen the Hickey deal play out.

 

[cyclones22]

And I'm not losing sleep over it either. As I said above, I think they made the right call. My concern was that they failed to maximize an asset, or even recoup anything for that asset.

As I noted above as well, the Kings were fairly deep on D going into that camp and both Muzzin and Hickey were waiver eligible. They knew they'd lose one. Yes, they likely didn't know which one they'd keep, but really the same could be said for Vey and Andreoff. Both would have required waivers if demoted, both were battling for a lower line spot (albeit likely different spots to a degree). LA knew they couldn't fit both in, they elected to trade Vey at the draft rather than battle it out in camp and risk losing one for nothing. That's how I'd rather have seen the Hickey deal play out.

Okay, and I get that. I really wish they would've dealt Hickey for something too, but that's 20/20 hindsight. It's also apples and oranges. Vey was never going to play center for LA. He's either centering a scoring line or a healthy scratch here. Andreoff is a bottom 6 center who can also effectively play wing. It was pretty obvious to most that he was going to be the one kept because there was room for a player of his ilk. People here were talking about how Andy was going to make the team ages ago. Hickey and Muzzin were both LHD fighting for the same spot. One of them had to go and it boiled down to not knowing who until one of them had little trade value at all. So yeah, in a perfect world, trade Hickey way ahead of time and get something. But that's not how it all played out and given the circumstances, if you're going to make that call, you better be damn right about Muzzin. And they were and that's why they're in the front office of the best team in hockey.