Must Read Article on Leafs D System

[mikebel111*]

awesome read!
this is not at all tough system to understand. it does overwork our wingers but that isn't a big problem IMO. Our breakout just needs to be better.

Neutral zone will tell where the forwards are when the D have the puck, that I think will tell why we struggle with the breakout.

 

[leafstilldeath*]

Good article.

As far as the D system is concerned.

The Good:

-Shots are from the outside
-Less risky
-Goalies should stop the puck coming from far and bad angles.

The Bad:

1. To play the system Randy is advocating we need a big-bodied defensive D that plays the body rather than the puck. Take the body and take the player out of the equation. The other D does the same thing with the pivot covering low for the third offensive opposition player with wingers close by for an outlet.

This system will work only when...
Big body Defensive Ds man our D-zone with Big body C as well. This way all the 3 entrants are neutralized. We are good at the wing as all our top 6 wingers (except Clarkson) have good speed (Kessel, JVR, Lupul) and can easily chip and chase or skate the puck quickly. If we have possession on the wing we back the opposition D from our blue line and that gives up space in the neutral ice and easy entry in the opposition zone.

Easily said than done. btw

2. I personally like the collapse and overload strategy, however, the collapsing system is leaving points wide open to take shots. Furthermore, if we do not get possession of the puck the collapse system creates havoc for our goalies if the shot from the point is taken quickly as our goalie is screened not only by opposition but also our own players (unknowingly ofcourse).

3. The collapse if done in an overload collapsing fashion would create some what of an ellipse shape where the side of the puck is deeper with the other side on the upper side. However, as pointed out by the article the collapse system Randy is running sees our forwards lining up parallel to each other not giving enough space for zone exits.

My recommendations:

1. Keep the collapse strategy however, change the overload system to a semi-circle formation instead of an ellipse. And for the love of God change the friggen parallel collapsing system. Abandon it completely!

2. Why semi-circle? Because we have speed on our wings. I would certainly run this at least with our 1st line no matter what. One on one battles will be a bit challenging for 2 Ds and C but since Randy is a line matching coach playing our 1st line against the opposition's third line with the semi-circle formation would work.

3. Benefits of semi-circle formation:
We cover the half boards and cut the pass of the boards to the points. Ds keep the two players playing down low to the outside. If the pass has to reach the point it has to be a pass without using the boards. If the pass is slow the opposition D will have to pinch in losing position and giving up 2 on 1 chance. If the pass is hard, by the time the puck is settled our wingers can cover the D-man as the ice to cover is not much forcing the opposition D to pass the puck in hurry.

4. To control the oppositions scoring lines:

I would suggest to run man on man system but as pointed out by the article we do not have enough skilled D to make it count.

But as the great saying goes if life gives you lemon make lemonade. Given the set of players we have. I would like to see a system where 4 collapse with one winger at the half board to chip the puck out.

What do I mean by that?

If the puck is on the left side the left winger collapses leaving the left point open, however, due to left pressure we force the opposition to pass right with right offensive player covered by the other D and Center covering the third man in. Leaving the right side winger at the half boards to recieve and chip the puck out.

Yup not a possesion system but we keep the scoing chances to the minimum. The only problem is that it leaves the left point open, however, it is not easy to pass the puck from right side down low to the left point. It will not be an accurate pass for a quick shot.

Conclusion:

The breakouts have been excruciatingly bad and it would be nice if we can get better at it. I hate it when our scoring lines get hemmed in our zone.

Problems:
Bozak on the 1st line is not good enough

Kadri needs to be better at positioning in the defensive zone. Most of the times he is seen floating half-wall.

The present system is gassing our wingers, more importantly, our scoring wingers and that could translate into frustration mighty soon

 

[jimmycarter]

i vote the writer of this article for the next coach of the leafs.

he has a stanley cup right?

 

[BlueMapleDawg]

That Cup came with 2 of the 3 best dmen of our generation.

Carlyle doesn't have that here!

 

[Purity*]

That Cup came with 2 of the 3 best dmen of our generation.

Carlyle doesn't have that here!

Far from it, we have 1 real defensemen, and a bunch of 3rd-pairing guys. We should be playing to our strength which as at forward. We can run 3 dangerous lines when we are fully healthy.

 

[dimi78]

Why am I the only one on here to comment that the Leafs are actually good in the defensive zone and for the most part execute the D zone coverage as planed. It's this along with the goalies why the Leafs find ways to win games. It's not just the goalies folks.

You guys who constantly rip the D apart have to learn to accept one hard fact in that 2 teams play. A lot of the mistakes are in due to them being forced on you by the opposition something the Leafs are by far the worst in the league right now at doing forcing turnovers & mistakes and is the biggest reason why they're constantly being out shot. The worst I've ever seen by an NHL team to be honest ... that right now is the real weakness in the Leafs game. Tilting the ice over into the offensive zone, sustaining pressure, force turnovers and mistakes playing hockey in the offensive zone.

We're focusing at the wrong area of the game when talking about what's hurting the Leafs. When will we talk about the offensive game in why they generate so few shots on goal? 0 in an entire period and OT the last game at open 4v4 hockey.

EDIT:

I'll give it a kick start... They don't move there feet in the offensive zone as a group. They do a lot of puck watching waiting to see what the puck carrier will do with it that leads to offensive turnovers with the guys on the ice at a stand still which makes it easy to breakout on them. Anybody else want to chime in? Cause there's a whole boat load of issues with there offensive zone hockey a few that are squarely on the coach.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Why am I the only one on here to comment that the Leafs are actually good in the defensive zone and for the most part execute the D zone coverage as planed. It's this along with the goalies why the Leafs find ways to win games. It's not just the goalies folks.

Exactly, our D core in the defensive zone is actually very effective. They can collapse into their zone, and do a great job retrieving the puck.

You guys who constantly rip the D apart have to learn to accept one hard fact in that 2 teams play. A lot of the mistakes are in due to them being forced on you by the opposition something the Leafs are by far the worst in the league right now at doing forcing turnovers & mistakes and is the biggest reason why they're constantly being out shot. The worst I've ever seen by an NHL team to be honest ... that right now is the real weakness in the Leafs game. Tilting the ice over into the offensive zone, sustaining pressure, force turnovers and mistakes playing hockey in the offensive zone.

That's where our limitations begin. When we are transitioning into the offensive zone, we tend to produce a lot of turnovers.

EDIT:

I'll give it a kick start... They don't move there feet in the offensive zone as a group. They do a lot of puck watching waiting to see what the puck carrier will do with it that leads to offensive turnovers with the guys on the ice at a stand still which makes it easy to breakout on them. Anybody else want to chime in? Cause there's a whole boat load of issues with there offensive zone hockey a few that are squarely on the coach.

YES. If we fix up our offensive zone hockey, I'm certain we'd perform better. This is definitely the result of coaching, because we're not allowing guys like Gardiner and Rielly to play their game. In other words, these skaters should be allowed to rush into the offensive zone with the forward core. A conservative defensive defenceman as a partner would be cover the attackers. Seeing that we do a great job collapsing into our zone, we can afford to be a lot more creative with the puck.

On paper, we could be one of the best teams in the conference. During the playoffs, Gardiner was playing an offensive-oriented role ( while Franson was more defensive) and it worked effectively against the tight checking Boston counterpart.

 

[BlueMapleDawg]

As the article points out, our wingers are so deep, the opposition just kicks it out to point, and our down-low wingers have to haul-ass just to cover the open lanes, let alone get control of the puck.

The main issue is, our group spends so much damn time trying to retrieve the puck in our zone, that they're exhausted. Far too often we're gassed after so much time in the D-zone, our forwards just dump the puck in and change. The opposition gets a hold of the puck, moves through the neutral zone, and we're back to playing defense.

It's coaching.

 

[Larry Hoover]

The more I think about it, the more I think our problem is the breakout, not the defensive zone system. Our defensive play obviously isn't perfect, but it's been fairly successful. It allows the opposing time to have lots of zone-time, but the idea is to force shots to the outside.

Our poor breakout however leads to sustained zone pressure, scoring chance zone turnovers, and an exhausted team. Yes, our collapsing style contributes to our breakout difficulties, but with a slight altercation to the system we can fix this. I think our team should be more focused on getting the puck out and utilizing our D's mobility rather than going off the boards or trying the long stretch pass every time. Our wingers positioning needs to change, but so does our D's mind-set.

An improved breakout will lead to less shots against and more shots for, I'm not too worried about being out shot...I'm more so worried about being out chanced.

 

[BlueMapleDawg]

Oh, and what adds to the coaching being abysmal, is Randy's obsession with size and grit.

- Fraser doesn't know how to handle the puck. He can't skate it out of trouble (he can barely skate at all), and he reverses it "out of trouble" to the other dman. Making it the other guy's problem instead.
- Ranger's puckmoving is slightly better, but he's been getting beat a lot this year.

That's form the back-end.

Then you have the meatheads up front, Orr and FML, who can't even receive a pass from the dmen properly.

Hell, usually McLaren has to spin to his forehand to get the puck out. He doesn't have the simple skills to go to his backhand to get the puck off the glass/boards and out.

And when he finally is "successful" in getting the puck across the blueline and out, it's just a neutral zone chip, right back to the opposing dmen. And guess what? They just dump it in and do it all over again.

You can't blame the players when EVERYONE is struggling or not getting it done or "not working hard enough" or "not competing".

It's coaching.

The system sucks.
His roster selection sucks.
His line matching is at times atrocious.

Randy Carlyle needs to go. Period.

 

[thewave]

The long outlet pass is what buried Wilson's team. Grabo was successful because he carried the puck through the neutral zone with speed. Kessel did it a few games back split the D and scored (am sure you all remember that). Randy does not seem to like this individual effort and prefers guys like Bozak who slap pass to player X or get the puck in deep. Problem being we don't have Gary Roberts anymore.

The short pass and carrying the puck has (though I can not find proof) been when we are at our best. We get away from that get picked apart turn the puck over and get hemmed in our own zone. What comes after that is a style out of necessity or perhaps instinctively directly related to the type of players this team ices. That is why we look disorderly because our players our playing out of phase with their natural style.

They look like they don't know what they are doing because they butting heads with Carlyles style and their instincts, they lack harmony therefore they look disjointed.

Yes they keep a lot of shots to the perimeter AGAINST teams that are not putting forth tue power forwards, your Staals etc, those lines rip up the leafs apart. They are equally benefited by our collapsing style as I gives them speed to break in to the slot, they can wind up and crash through at will with brute force when required.

No time to edit will ge back to this later hate posting from phones for real conversation

 

[thewave]

Most interesting part to me

Defenceman
SA/20
SA/60
GA/20
GA/60
GF/20
GF/60
Dion Phaneuf 11.74 35.22 0.39 1.17 0.835 2.51
Carl Gunnarsson 11.29 33.87 0.52 1.55 0.576 1.73
Jake Gardiner 10.83 32.49 0.37 1.11 0.584 1.75
Mark Fraser 10.23 30.69 0.22 0.67 0.222 0.67
Paul Ranger 10.61 31.83 0.52 1.57 0.758 2.27
Cody Franson 12.70 38.10 0.86 2.57 0.687 2.06
Morgan Rielly 13.07 39.21 1.21 3.63 0.908 2.72

If you take our Franson and Rielly all our D average less than 2 goals against per 60 mins. That's incredible.

Saw that coming in the first 9 games he played wanted him sent down. Could have used Liles more and let the kid develop. Was not a popular opinion. Franson needs a Gunner to help him out.

 

[indigobuffalo]

I've heard the weak along the boards argument a few times.

Since it's mostly (but not always) the wingers doing the board battle in the defensive zone, who is weak on the boards besides Kessel?
JVR?
Lupul?
Clarkson?
Kulemin?
Raymond?

Perhaps Raymond but I really don't think it's fair to say too many are weak.

It seems to be more of an issue of getting to the puck on the defensive zone boards quickly when they've collapsed into the middle.

The pinching defenseman is able to nullify the winger too easily.

Battling and success along the boards is a two-man game. Having the winger apply pressure is worth nothing if you don't have a C providing appropriate support.

With Bozak, Bolland and Kadri out for parts of the month, it's no surprise that extra element of support was not availent.

 

[jmart21]

Oh, and what adds to the coaching being abysmal, is Randy's obsession with size and grit.

- Fraser doesn't know how to handle the puck. He can't skate it out of trouble (he can barely skate at all), and he reverses it "out of trouble" to the other dman. Making it the other guy's problem instead.
- Ranger's puckmoving is slightly better, but he's been getting beat a lot this year.

That's form the back-end.

Then you have the meatheads up front, Orr and FML, who can't even receive a pass from the dmen properly.

Hell, usually McLaren has to spin to his forehand to get the puck out. He doesn't have the simple skills to go to his backhand to get the puck off the glass/boards and out.

And when he finally is "successful" in getting the puck across the blueline and out, it's just a neutral zone chip, right back to the opposing dmen. And guess what? They just dump it in and do it all over again.

You can't blame the players when EVERYONE is struggling or not getting it done or "not working hard enough" or "not competing".

It's coaching.

The system sucks.
His roster selection sucks.
His line matching is at times atrocious.

Randy Carlyle needs to go. Period.

-The system has been impletmented with success; it works.

-Several players are underperforming; making mistakes that result in the puck staying in out zone. If you have a brain-fart and turn the puck over, that's on you...not your coach.

A coaching change won't change things.

 

[BlueMapleDawg]

Are people seriously saying if we had Quenneville, Hitchcock, or Claude Julien behind the bench, we wouldn't be a better team?

Of course a coaching change would make a difference. I think you Carlyle supporters just like him because he's OUR coach.

I initially liked that we brought him in. At the time. I've seen what he has to offer, and I want him out. There are better options for this club.

The biggest bummer is that he chased away Grabovski and MacArthur. Too late to remedy that mistake.

 

[RythmicOne]

Carlyle seems to think that he can force his systems on any player. He is not playing to the leafs strengths and it shows. He need to stop stuffing a square peg in a round hole and look to the players for the answers.

 

[thewave]

Battling and success along the boards is a two-man game. Having the winger apply pressure is worth nothing if you don't have a C providing appropriate support.

With Bozak, Bolland and Kadri out for parts of the month, it's no surprise that extra element of support was not availent.

Bozak doesn't offer it anyways and Kadri and Bolland are just alright. We don't have a force to be reckoned with on C, that's a big problem. If you can't win the battle the boards the next best thing is players with uncanny knack of using stick work and coming away with it. Again, Grabo was pretty good at that!

 

[BlueMapleDawg]

-The system has been impletmented with success; it works.

-Several players are underperforming; making mistakes that result in the puck staying in out zone. If you have a brain-fart and turn the puck over, that's on you...not your coach.

A coaching change won't change things.

The system doesn't work. I don't know why someone would say it does.

We won enough games to make the playoffs in a 48-game season. And then in Game 1 got absolutely crushed. Keep in mind FML, Fraser, and Kostka played that game.

The injury to Kostka forced Carlyle to put Gardiner in the game. And then the injury to Fraser really bumped up his icetime. Gardiner was arguably our best defenceman that series. How could Carlyle not see that Gardiner was a strong player?

We're being badly outplayed night in and night out. Our goaltending can't bail us out for 50 wins.

Carlyle needs to change. His system does not work.
If he's incapable or unwilling to change, can his ass.

I can't believe people are okay with seeing where he takes us.

I don't wanna wait for us to be out of a playoff spot before doing something. Be proactive, do it now, and we'll be set for the later half of the season.

Sharks
Bruins
Kings
Blues
Hawks
Pens

All teams we have to play in our next ten games.

Do you think Carlyle's system will match up against them? Because those are the teams we have to beat to have any success in this league. No sense in taking glory beating the bottom feeders.

For the record, were VERY fortunate against the Pens Wednesday. A giveaway by Fleury, a brutal cough-up by the Pens dman. Can't rely on that.

 

[dimi78]

The long outlet pass is what buried Wilson's team.

They look like they don't know what they are doing because they butting heads with Carlyles style and their instincts, they lack harmony therefore they look disjointed.

Um what? The long pass wasn't part of anything Wilson preached. The opposite. He wanted short passes and to use there speed where too often the skill level of the team showed it's colors and would fumble 4 foot passes to each other on the breakout... That changed in his final season with the complete roster turnover Burke made, the team was right there to not only make the playoffs but actually just 3 pts out from home ice advantage before the you know what happen... What buried Wilson was how he handled the goaltending... found himself with 2 goalies struggling with confidence for 2 very different reasons that sunk the entire team... If he handled the goalies the way Carlyle has handled them both last year and this year Wilson would have made the playoffs thus wouldn't have been fired that year.

The hard linematchup game is responsible for the lack of flow in there game... The only ones who Carlyle's style is working against is any PMD who have to skate and carry the puck to be at there best. That's why last year he went virtually the whole year without one.

This team would have an instant breath of fresh air if Carlyle does 2 things. relaxes with the hard line match up and #FreeJakeGardiner & #FreeMorganRielly.

 

[thewave]

Um what? The long pass wasn't part of anything Wilson preached. The opposite. He wanted short passes and to use there speed where too often the skill level of the team showed it's colors and would fumble 4 foot passes to each other on the breakout... That changed in his final season with the complete roster turnover Burke made, the team was right there to not only make the playoffs but actually just 3 pts out from home ice advantage before the you know what happen... What buried Wilson was how he handled the goaltending... found himself with 2 goalies struggling with confidence for 2 very different reasons that sunk the entire team... If he handled the goalies the way Carlyle has handled them both last year and this year Wilson would have made the playoffs thus wouldn't have been fired that year.

The hard linematchup game is responsible for the lack of flow in there game... The only ones who Carlyle's style is working against is any PMD who have to skate and carry the puck to be at there best. That's why last year he went virtually the whole year without one.

This team would have an instant breath of fresh air if Carlyle does 2 things. relaxes with the hard line match up and #FreeJakeGardiner & #FreeMorganRielly.

You are delusional! The cross ice passes were a constant under RW I almost broke a freaking tv because they kept doing that **** over and over.

I think you are on the Wrong teams board. This is Toronto. Ffs we were a turnover machine under Wilson lol.

Honestly I remember brief periods of time where they attempted to play a short game, mostly alway all long through the neutral zone.


Edit: You just remember the KGM line! Now I know your error, KGM was fantastic carrying and short passing

 

[Cams]

Thanks for posting this. Some good points I can use for the team I coach.

 

[mikebel111*]

Are people seriously saying if we had Quenneville, Hitchcock, or Claude Julien behind the bench, we wouldn't be a better team?

Of course a coaching change would make a difference. I think you Carlyle supporters just like him because he's OUR coach.

I initially liked that we brought him in. At the time. I've seen what he has to offer, and I want him out. There are better options for this club.

The biggest bummer is that he chased away Grabovski and MacArthur. Too late to remedy that mistake.

Quit making stuff up
Grabo didnt perform so he was dropped.
And mac is a sore loser.
Looks like u love them so much.
This system is good. Players need to execute.

Ur acting like its a really hard system. Not even close to be hard

 

[Semantics]

i dont think our D is as big a problem as many people think it is.

Not sure I agree. Fraser and Franson are middle aged players who were fringe NHLers for a few years that their previous teams gave up on, and who still have severe weaknesses in their games that they have to work on/around.

Gardiner is another guy whose drafting team decided he wasn't a blue chipper any more, he's young enough to still develop into a reliable 2nd-3rd pair defender, but isn't there yet. Then you have Ranger, an older reclamation project who was out of the league for 4 years. Almost impossible for any player not named Mario Lemieux to get back up to their previous level of play in that situation. And then Rielly is a rookie who's still learning the league.

So really, Phaneuf and Gunnarsson are the only D we have who aren't a project of some sort. I think you can shelter a couple of d-men like that, but the Leafs have four guys who need to be sheltered and that's a bit much.

That said I do agree that the forwards and the system do make the D look even worse.

 

[thewave]

Quit making stuff up
Grabo didnt perform so he was dropped.
And mac is a sore loser.
Looks like u love them so much.
This system is good. Players need to execute.

Ur acting like its a really hard system. Not even close to be hard

If every player could just play a system to the T and execute the right decision at any given time we would need no coach and we would be able to turn any player into anything. Unfortunately players run on instincts and perform to their strengths naturally because its who they are. They aren't drones controlled by the master controller Carlyle.

Some fit some dont. We unfortunately have players that don't fit.

 

[Cool Hand Luke]

Basically, this is how I see it:

Our front end and back end don't match. And since Burke and Nonis like to build from the back end out, we go with a system that fits with the play of our back end as well as masks their weaknesses. Because we have arguably one "two-way" defender (Phaneuf), we stick with simplified collapsing d-zone strategies. Problem is, that our entire front end, other than the meatheads that play the fourth line, don't naturally play that system.

Guys like Kadri, Kessel, Raymond, Bozak, Grabo, Lupul, and Kulemin like speed and quick transition. If your back end is collapsing, and you front end is on their horses flying up ice before the puck is out, you've got a major problem. So Randy is trying to force the forwards to play against their skill and instinct, and benching D who bring out the "bad habits" of the forwards, like Gardiner and Liles.

This team is half built for Ron Wilson (Kadri, Kessel, Raymond, Lupul, Bozak + Gardiner and Liles) and half built for Randy (Phaneuf, Ranger, Franson, Fraser, Bolland, Clarkson, McClement, Orr, McLaren).

Side note: When you are as obsessed with "line matching" as Randy is, carrying the puck up the ice is not helpful. The team is constantly dumping the puck so that they can make the quick change and get the "right" line out there. If the defender carries the puck too far into the offensive zone, it is hard for him to get off and make the change.

Second side note: For those who are saying his style worked, two things. One, since it is such a simple system, other teams have figured it out. Since Randy refuses to change it up, we are easy to play against this year. Secondly, we almost beat Boston in the first round BECAUSE Randy was forced to abandon his strict system when he brought in Gardiner and allowed him to carry the puck more due to injury. Problem was, by game 5, 6 and 7 some of the players were still playing Randy's old system, and some (Gardiner and Grabo) were not, leading to a massive collapse.

The Solution: Get a coach who can implement an up-tempo, puck possession system, but also get d-men who can play this way, as well as physically and defensively sound so that its not a 6-5 game every time. I can understand why the Leafs are not doing this. Defenders like that do not grow on trees. And we didn't draft any (other than Rielly). It's easier to play to the strengths of what we have. So look for a coach who can adapt and not be so "systems" obsessed. Bring out the strengths of each player rather than forcing players to fit to one type of system.

Prime candidate would be Guy Boucher. This article sums it up:

http://www.rawcharge.com/2010/6/8/1507145/boucher-educated-man-with-educated

"My approach is based on the individual," Boucher said. "So whether you're talking about 17 or 18-year-olds or 30 or 35-year-olds, players want to improve, they want to win and ultimately you find the same problems and strengths in each individual. It's the same starting point, so I didn't need to adapt my approach too much."

This is a contrast to the last regime in Tampa, where the roster was to fit the coach and those who didn't click were part of the problem and to be treated as such... Not worked with to solve things.

A few other Boucher quotes:

• "You don't motivate people; you activate something in them that already exists."

• "Let's get out of the 'why' and get into the 'how.'"

• "I don't coach systems, I coach people."

At the end of the day, I think the team has tuned out Randy. If you don't fit, you are left out, and so why would you even want to try. These kids have excelled throughout their young careers by utilizing their specific skills. If you aren't allowed to do what you are best at, you are going to suck, and not care.

An essay for sure, hopefully not all over the place.

Thoughts?