Proposal: MTL & NJ

[AfroThunder396]

Wait did a Habs fan seriously compare just Kirby Dach to Mario Lemieux because he had 2 assists in 2 games? lmao

 

[dgibb10]

Wait did a Habs fan seriously compare just Kirby Dach to Mario Lemieux because he had 2 assists in 2 games? lmao

Both secondary assists too lol

 

[TBF1972]

Matheson played like 6min a game more in mtl than pittsburg and is ev production is still near the same. He was put on the pp by default (he is not good on the pp at all) and its where is anormal production came from.

fair argument. explaines some of the improvement. deployment explaines a lot of the rest.

now explain this concept to juno when he compares the production of newhook and holtz.

 

[dgibb10]

fair argument. explaines some of the improvement. deployment explaines a lot of the rest.

now explain this concept to juno when he compares the production of newhook and holtz.

You'd think Newhook would be the prime example to him of how taking a guy buried on the depth chart (like Holtz) who clearly has a ton of talent can lead to great results when given more opportunities on a worse team.

But no.

 

[bud12]

You'd think Newhook would be the prime example to him of how taking a guy buried on the depth chart (like Holtz) who clearly has a ton of talent can lead to great results when given more opportunities on a worse team.

But no.

Agree, Holtz is the kind of player that I think habs management would look at.

 

[dgibb10]

Agree, Holtz is the kind of player that I think habs management would look at.

I think Holtz would make a ton of sense as a fit for Montreal. Holtz isn't good defensively but what he can do is absolutely SNIPE and score 5v5, which is something montreal has lacked.

I also think NJD would be dumb to get rid of him. If he would be available I'd expect to be after next year when he's an RFA.

Most of the pieces I'd want as NJD are pieces Montreal would be stupid to let go.

For example I'd offer NJDs next 3 1sts+ for Slaf, but Montreal would be absolute morons to let him go.

I'd want Monty, Guhle, Newhook, but MTL shouldn't let them go.

Maybe evans could be available.

I'd like anderson as a 4th line Miles Wood replacement, but I wouldn't pay much for him and the retention I'd require would make it pointless for MTL (50% retained for a 2nd)

 

[Frank Drebin]

For 50% retained Matheson? Sure, assuming we can flip him for more.

There's no spot for him on our roster really but I'm sure at 50% we could flip him for pieces we actually need.

From Montreal in terms of pieces that would actually fit into helping NJDs roster makeup:

Guhle: 2LD with marino, would offer our 2024 1st+sweeteners
Montembault: 1G. Would offer our 2025 1st
Newhook: 3C/3LW: would offer our 2025 1st+winnipeg 2nd
Evans: 4C: Would offer 2024 3rd
Dvorak (50%): 4C: would offer 2024 3rd
Josh Anderson (50%): Miles wood replacement: would offer winnipeg 2nd

some solid offers in there. Some not so great but some solid ones.

 

[dgibb10]

some solid offers in there. Some not so great but some solid ones.

I was focused primarily on value. Obviously Newhook and Montembault and Guhle are pieces Montreal should have no reason to move.

Like I'd also offer a Top 10 pick+2 other 1sts for Slaf, but again montreal would not move him because they would then just be looking for another slaf

 

[Frank Drebin]

I was focused primarily on value. Obviously Newhook and Montembault and Guhle are pieces Montreal should have no reason to move.

Like I'd also offer a Top 10 pick+2 other 1sts for Slaf, but again montreal would not move him because they would then just be looking for another slaf

yep reading through your posts in this thread I appreciate your level headed view on value rather than simply trying to win an imaginary trade

 

[dgibb10]

yep reading through your posts in this thread I appreciate your level headed view on value rather than simply trying to win an imaginary trade

I generally prefer to use picks just because it eliminates the bias on my side for the most part.

Like I'd personally rather give up a 1st+2nd than Holtz, but I doubt if I included him in a proposal he would be viewed that way by a number of fanbases.

I obviously have Bias, but try to mitigate it as much as possible and use comps as baselines

 

[Scintillating10]

Why would a 2nd pairing young dman return a proven young 1st liner. That doesn't seem to check out.

And again, I am very high on Guhle, I cannot stress this enough. I am a massive fan of his game

Defenseman are more valuable than winger. Guhle is first pairing not 2nd. He's only 22, huge upside yet

 

[Baksfamous112]

I think Holtz would make a ton of sense as a fit for Montreal. Holtz isn't good defensively but what he can do is absolutely SNIPE and score 5v5, which is something montreal has lacked.

I also think NJD would be dumb to get rid of him. If he would be available I'd expect to be after next year when he's an RFA.

Most of the pieces I'd want as NJD are pieces Montreal would be stupid to let go.

For example I'd offer NJDs next 3 1sts+ for Slaf, but Montreal would be absolute morons to let him go.

I'd want Monty, Guhle, Newhook, but MTL shouldn't let them go.

Maybe evans could be available.

I'd like anderson as a 4th line Miles Wood replacement, but I wouldn't pay much for him and the retention I'd require would make it pointless for MTL (50% retained for a 2nd)

Evans could be available. Next year Habs C line is Suzuki, Dach, Newhook, Evans, Dvorak and Beck might be in the mix as well.

We can spare Evans. The rest? Not so much

 

[dgibb10]

Defenseman are more valuable than winger. Guhle is first pairing not 2nd. He's only 22, huge upside yet

Guhle plays behind matheson.
He ranks 43rd among LHD in minutes per game. Right in line with a 2nd pairing dman.
He has played tough minutes and has had better results than most 22 year olds would in a tough situation.

But he is not fetching a proven young 1st line forward, unless you have a much lesser definition of proven, young, and/or 1st line than I do.

For example Mercer, who up to this point in their careers has had more success than guhle, is what I'd consider a proven young top 6 forward.

Assuming your definition of young is U24?

He's certainly below the tier of guys like Raymond or Laffy or Cozens or Boldy or Jarvis?

Are we talking a bit older?

Are we talking like a Shane Pinto type? Peterka? Farabee?

Give me an example of a young top line forward so I know what your baseline is here.

 

[Xirik]

Wouldn't mind a 4th line with Lazar and Evans and if injuries happen then one of them can play 3rd line center.

 

[dgibb10]

Wouldn't mind a 4th line with Lazar and Evans and if injuries happen then one of them can play 3rd line.

Guys I have in mind for a 4th line alongside Lazar:

Trenin, Evans, Sturm, Eller, Duhaime, Malensteyn, Boqvist, Martinook, Joshua, Cousins, etc. You got any other guys to add to the list of names to think about?

 

[bud12]

Guhle plays behind matheson.
He ranks 43rd among LHD in minutes per game. Right in line with a 2nd pairing dman.
He has played tough minutes and has had better results than most 22 year olds would in a tough situation.

But he is not fetching a proven young 1st line forward, unless you have a much lesser definition of proven, young, and/or 1st line than I do.

For example Mercer, who up to this point in their careers has had more success than guhle, is what I'd consider a proven young top 6 forward.

Assuming your definition of young is U24?

He's certainly below the tier of guys like Raymond or Laffy or Cozens or Boldy or Jarvis?

Are we talking a bit older?

Are we talking like a Shane Pinto type? Peterka? Farabee?

Give me an example of a young top line forward so I know what your baseline is here.

For the last strech, he played on the right side with Matheson. In fact, I think he started right at the beginning of the year

 

[Xirik]

Guys I have in mind for a 4th line alongside Lazar:

Trenin, Evans, Sturm, Eller, Duhaime, Malensteyn, Boqvist, Martinook, Joshua, Cousins, etc. You got any other guys to add to the list of names to think about?

Is it bad that I want Maroon back?

 

[dgibb10]

For the last strech, he played on the right side with Matheson

I base it off of full year results, but otherwise if the requirement for 1st line forward is a guy who got a short showing up there filling in, it does become more resonable. Regardless "plays above David Savard" doesn't move me into thinking he's a top pairing dman at this point.

He may certainly develop into one, and again, I am very high on him. But to declare him a 1st pairing dman already, I would not

 

[HabsAddict]

Wait did a Habs fan seriously compare just Kirby Dach to Mario Lemieux because he had 2 assists in 2 games? lmao

That was me and obviously you didn't see him play.

Dismissed

 

[Guttersniped]

Was a beast in the preseason.

I don’t care about this debate but bro, really, you’re going with this as proof of anything?

Pre-season isn’t real NHL hockey.

 

[dgibb10]

Is it bad that I want Maroon back?

Not really, he fits the mold of a 4th line target. I haven't watched him play in a while tho, so I'd have to hear from a wild fan or someone in the know on how much he has left in the tank

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Saying that the rest of Matheson’s game outside of PP is worth a 3rd is a clueless take. Matheson plays a fantastic transition game with his smooth skating and has a scoring touch. He sure is not a PP specialist

Being good at skating doesn't make you good at hockey. He is a liability at 5v5. Yes he can skate but so can Zadorov for example. At least someone like Zadorov can also defend

 

[Scintillating10]

Guhle plays behind matheson.
He ranks 43rd among LHD in minutes per game. Right in line with a 2nd pairing dman.
He has played tough minutes and has had better results than most 22 year olds would in a tough situation.

But he is not fetching a proven young 1st line forward, unless you have a much lesser definition of proven, young, and/or 1st line than I do.

For example Mercer, who up to this point in their careers has had more success than guhle, is what I'd consider a proven young top 6 forward.

Assuming your definition of young is U24?

He's certainly below the tier of guys like Raymond or Laffy or Cozens or Boldy or Jarvis?

Are we talking a bit older?

Are we talking like a Shane Pinto type? Peterka? Farabee?

Give me an example of a young top line forward so I know what your baseline is here.

No, we keeping Guhle if not top return. There's zero percentage chance we trading him cheap. After trading Sergechev and McDonagh at 21, they mature around 25 into stud defense men.

It's going to take core piece to get Guhle. We 6 deep at center now. Looking for wingers. Even if same skill wingers don't have value of stud defense man. We want first line winger, young, NHL proven.

 

[dgibb10]

No, we keeping Guhle if not top return. There's zero percentage chance we trading him cheap. After trading Sergechev and McDonagh at 21, they mature around 25 into stud defense men.

It's going to take core piece to get Guhle. We 6 deep at center now. Looking for wingers. Even if same skill wingers don't have value of stud defense man. We want first line winger, young, NHL proven.

I 100% agree that Guhle shouldn't be traded.

I just don't think, if he were to be traded, that he fetches a proven 1st liner without montreal adding, unless you're talking about Zegras. But Anaheim fans wouldn't like that (and I'd rather have Guhle).

1st line young wingers have generally more value than 2nd pair dmen.

 

[Cenzo_]

Being good at skating doesn't make you good at hockey. He is a liability at 5v5. Yes he can skate but so can Zadorov for example. At least someone like Zadorov can also defend

Sure being good at skating doesn’t necessarily make you good at hockey. But being good at skating and scoring 62 pts pretty much says you are very good at hockey. I agree that Matheson is not exceptional in his own end but saying his game outside the PP is worth a 3rd which is what I was answering to is being clueless