Proposal: MTL & DET

jfhabs

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May 21, 2015
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I mean...if you go into a negotiation to try to acquire a guy like Kasper/Danielson and don't view them as worthy of the Top-10 picks that the actual Detroit team in question literally spent on them...you're just never going to find a proper "value" exchange. lol. If you don't like those particular prospects so much, then just don't try to pry them out of a team's hands i guess. Because whether you like them or not, Detroit obviously values them as recent Top-10 Pick Centers and part of the future core of their team down the middle. Whether that pans out...who knows...but that's the value here.


As far as Matheson goes...i feel like he's simultaneously both underrated and overrated. I like him. He's fun to watch. He's fast and can be physical and he's got some puck moving and offensive ability when you let him run. He can log a ton of minutes.

But...he's also a little bit erratic. He's the opposite of a "stabilizing presence" that most playoff teams would be looking to add to their mix. The "value" that he adds to the Habs Powerplay is also not exactly relevant to most Playoff Teams with deeper bluelines, who almost certainly have a better PPQB somewhere in their midst already. So Matheson's Powerplay value to the Habs is greater than his Powerplay value to a deeper Playoff Team. That's something you just have to reconcile in any prospective deal. And why the Habs probably just keep him, because he's worth more to them than the "buyer" teams.
Value is dynamic, not because a team picks top 10 that said player retains the exact same value years later. Different draft classes, different progression etc. It's not that I don't like these guys, but I wouldn't trade a 8-10 selection in the upcoming draft because I don't believe they project as top of the line up players right now. Still 2 very good prospects.

As far as Matheson, not a perfect player, but if he was better defensively we'd be talking about a prime defender here so of course he has his flaws. His defensive game is not bad tho, he's just not a rock. He's pacing for 58+ points /82 games since joining Montreal, he's arguably an upgrade offensively over some of the options currently on playoffs teams... He doesn't play with McDavid, Matthews, etc
 

biturbo19

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Value is dynamic, not because a team picks top 10 that said player retains the exact same value years later. Different draft classes, different progression etc. It's not that I don't like these guys, but I wouldn't trade a 8-10 selection in the upcoming draft because I don't believe they project as top of the line up players right now. Still 2 very good prospects.

As far as Matheson, not a perfect player, but if he was better defensively we'd be talking about a prime defender here so of course he has his flaws. His defensive game is not bad tho, he's just not a rock. He's pacing for 58+ points /82 games since joining Montreal, he's arguably an upgrade offensively over some of the options currently on playoffs teams... He doesn't play with McDavid, Matthews, etc

Value is also "dynamic" in that Detroit selected these guys Top-10 because they really like them. A lot. So if you're going to come in hedging, "i don't think this is a Top-10 talent" Detroit is just going to tell you to gtfo because they clearly do think that they are. Value is more static in the sense that, you're not going to convince a team that their prospect they love and view as part of their future core, is somehow not as good as they think he is. That's not how that works.


Matheson is a tough player to value. He's good, but he's not that good. A lot of his best attributes are most apparent on a bad team. They're diminished on a good, properly deep team. That's a problem when it comes to asking "value".


In the same way you may not think Kasper/Danielson are worth as much as Detroit does...most Playoff teams probably aren't going to think that Matheson is worth as much as he is to the Habs in a situation where he can just openly flourish.
 
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13to40

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I like the idea of Montreal selling those players and I think they would both help the wings out, but this trade is just awful.

Detroit giving up 2 recent first round picks for older players who are slightly overpaid. Both are nice complimentary players, but not at all worth what the OP is dreaming for.

It’s like Detroit trying to trade Copp and Ghost for Slaf and Mailloux…. Not exactly something Habs fans would be enticed to do
 
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TBF1972

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May 19, 2018
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Anderson have more value then Chariot
signed for 4 years still , just turned 29 years old
He's got a good 5 yesr ahead of him

Matheson 29 year old still have 3 years.
Him again have a good 5 years of good hockey

Anderson would be playing on the 2nd line with JT
Matheson with Seider

So value wise looks liike

Anderson > Chariot
Matheson < Kasper
with kind of the same arguments you offered back in the day

chiarot, drouin and armia

for

holtz and mercer

you told us devils fans we don't know hockey as drouin and chiarot would be on our top line. i really wonder where you get your self confidence from to tell others, they don't know hockey. based on past proposal we just know you offer crap for other rebuilding teams recently drafted first rounders. it simply doesn't work and won't ever lead to productive discussions.
 

thefutures

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Go look in any game day thread and see how montreal fans talk about matheson, this act is getting old.
 

Dotter

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Wings have a 6ft-9in monster in the AHL that can come into the NHL right now and outperform what Josh Anderson is doing this season.

Why would Wings give up Kasper or Danielsson for an aging redundant player?

If you really want Kasper that bad, then let's talk about that Juraj Slafkovsky kid...
 

jfhabs

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May 21, 2015
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Value is also "dynamic" in that Detroit selected these guys Top-10 because they really like them. A lot. So if you're going to come in hedging, "i don't think this is a Top-10 talent" Detroit is just going to tell you to gtfo because they clearly do think that they are. Value is more static in the sense that, you're not going to convince a team that their prospect they love and view as part of their future core, is somehow not as good as they think he is. That's not how that works.


Matheson is a tough player to value. He's good, but he's not that good. A lot of his best attributes are most apparent on a bad team. They're diminished on a good, properly deep team. That's a problem when it comes to asking "value".


In the same way you may not think Kasper/Danielson are worth as much as Detroit does...most Playoff teams probably aren't going to think that Matheson is worth as much as he is to the Habs in a situation where he can just openly flourish.
I rest my case.
Matheson is underrated :laugh:
 
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jfhabs

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May 21, 2015
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I like the idea of Montreal selling those players and I think they would both help the wings out, but this trade is just awful.

Detroit giving up 2 recent first round picks for older players who are slightly overpaid. Both are nice complimentary players, but not at all worth what the OP is dreaming for.

It’s like Detroit trying to trade Copp and Ghost for Slaf and Mailloux…. Not exactly something Habs fans would be enticed to do
Matheson is underpaid.
Anderson is grossly overpaid.
 
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Kairi Zaide

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Aug 11, 2009
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Anderson (power forward overpaid but still great)
I lost it there.

Anderson has negative on-ice value. He knows nothing except trying (and often failing) to rush to the nets when he's carrying the puck. Even if it's a stupid play or there are better plays available.

His impact on teammates has been neutral at best over the past years but this year there isn't one single player on the team that has performed better with him than without him. :|
 
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Boondock

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Feb 6, 2009
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these 2 players would help them out big time , not just a little
and none of them are rentals
Will help them spend pointless cap space? Will help big time with LTIR? Help identify to the fan base that winning a cup isn't important? Help slow down the rebuild, so Detroit can flounder as a middle of the road non-contender for the next 3 seasons? I don't see Anderson and Matheson helping the Habs win many games. A team in a rebuild does not trade 1 of their 2 most recent top 10 pick center prospects for aging over paid 3rd line wingers and 30 year old decent dmen. This is very poor value for the Wings and not the pieces they should be using a major asset to acquire.
 

Boondock

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I could see something around matheson for one of those two, but not the whole deal as written
you could see it on a fantasy hockey forum, not in real life. Matheson does not get a recent top 10 pick C prospect, he's a #4 offensive dman on a good team. Valuable, but not top 10 pick valuable.
 

jfhabs

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May 21, 2015
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you could see it on a fantasy hockey forum, not in real life. Matheson does not get a recent top 10 pick C prospect, he's a #4 offensive dman on a good team. Valuable, but not top 10 pick valuable.
Curious what you think are the most likely and optimal projections for Danielson and Kasper?

Matheson is playing top opposition night in / night out. He's not as bad defensively, while not a strength. His also pacing for over 55 pts this year. Salary is decent, I'd argue a underpaid.

You're lucky if you get 3 years of that level of play from a 8-10th selection.

Not suggesting Detroit should do that trade. Matheson isn't putting them over the top.
 

Boondock

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Feb 6, 2009
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Curious what you think are the most likely and optimal projections for Danielson and Kasper?

Matheson is playing top opposition night in / night out. He's not as bad defensively, while not a strength. His also pacing for over 55 pts this year. Salary is decent, I'd argue a underpaid.

You're lucky if you get 3 years of that level of play from a 8-10th selection.

Not suggesting Detroit should do that trade. Matheson isn't putting them over the top.
I see them both being 2-way 2nd line players with upside. By upside I mean with the right development they could have a couple seasons on a 1st line. I think Kasper has the better scoring potential but I think Danielson has the skill set that translates into NHL playing time sooner.

As for Matheson, I love his skating, but he has some serious flaws in his game too. He should be an offensive #4 on a playoff team. Matheson's defensive metrics are poor and he struggles with decision making if he can't skate himself out of trouble. Yes he is pacing for 55pts, well Gostibehere had seasons of 46 points in 64 games and 65 points in 78 games and he was traded as a cap dump. Hell, Andy Delmore had 18 goals 1 season for the Flyers - defensive point totals are important but not as important as other attributes.

A young team looking to rebuild through the draft isn't looking to upgrade to a 30 year old d-man at the cost of young cost controlled assets. Matheson will be 33 when his contract expires, he won't be improving at that point and you will probably see a drop off in his play as early as next season. I think its also important to consider this is a career year for Matheson, not his standard production. Kasper and Danielson are cost controlled for the next 5-6 years that will help the Red Wings actually build a team.
 

nbwingsfan

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Dec 13, 2009
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Detroit is in the game for playoff.
Rebuild is over
Let's GO !!!

MTL : Anderson (power forward overpaid but still great) + Mike Matheson
for
DET : Chariot + Kasper or Danielson

Detroit gets a power forward on the 3rd line or even 2nd , Matheson would be their first LD

MTL gets a cap dump in Chariot to balance out Anderson + a great prospect
Oh this is bad bad.

Chiarot and Anderson cancel out as equally bad contracts at best

Matheson for Kasper or Daniselson :laugh:
 

McJedi

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Apr 21, 2020
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Oh this is bad bad.

Chiarot and Anderson cancel out as equally bad contracts at best

Matheson for Kasper or Daniselson :laugh:
The only thing missing from the proposal was the Habs adding either their 2024 1st or Reinbacher

Matheson + Habs 2024 1st for either of those guys. Then value starts to pencil.

Matheson is a very bad defensive player. He does possess a nice offensive skill set but he’s a Tyson Berrie in his own end. Hardly the stuff of playoff legend.
 
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nbwingsfan

Registered User
Dec 13, 2009
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Anderson have more value then Chariot
signed for 4 years still , just turned 29 years old
He's got a good 5 yesr ahead of him

Matheson 29 year old still have 3 years.
Him again have a good 5 years of good hockey

Anderson would be playing on the 2nd line with JT
Matheson with Seider

So value wise looks liike

Anderson > Chariot
Matheson < Kasper
Just so we’re straight here… you think Anderson who’s been playing like a 3rd/4th line player on a bad Montreal team would be playing on the second line of an offensively deep good(ish) team?

Also having 4 years left on Anderson deal isn’t the positive you seem to think it is
 

calder candidate

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This trade doesn,t even make sense for MTL.

- If there trading a Matheson they aren't looking to get a LD back
- Anderson is overpaid but fill a role, Chiarot is also over paid but does nothing for MTL.
- Matheson 3y a 4.875M$ elite skater, top 5 in TOI, Top 15 D in pts and has to do everything in Mtl with very little help. 3 prime years at that price is worth more than than either of these prospects even if I like them both but still think they were both reach, they will be good NHLer but I don't think they will be impact player.
 

HabsAddict

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I like Chiarot for what he brought to the Habs 4 years ago, but now, he's pretty useless to us. To take him we need incentive as a cap dump.

So any trade for a youngster with Chiarot in it is already minus a late 2nd. Or a vet goes the other way.

Another huge issue I have is that until a prospect is in the NHL, it's ALL based on "potential". The value is not the same as a kid that has 2-3 season in the NHL and proving his abilities.
 

TBF1972

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May 19, 2018
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I like Chiarot for what he brought to the Habs 4 years ago, but now, he's pretty useless to us. To take him we need incentive as a cap dump.

So any trade for a youngster with Chiarot in it is already minus a late 2nd. Or a vet goes the other way.

Another huge issue I have is that until a prospect is in the NHL, it's ALL based on "potential". The value is not the same as a kid that has 2-3 season in the NHL and proving his abilities.
so chiarot has negative value, but anderson is a plus.
 

Petes2424

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Aug 4, 2005
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Stat watching at the Junior level is one of the biggest mistakes on this site. Especially these days, when it’s the only thing many fans do, when forming their opinions on prospects.

If anyone has any questions regarding Danielson as a legit top NHL prospect, watch a couple of Portland Winterhawks games. Watch 3-4 games in a row. You’ll understand pretty quickly, why he’s a much better NHL prospect, than a couple of his teammates who put up big numbers.

He drives play, he’s the best 200’ player on the ice, “thinks the game” at an elite level, has elite vision, and a wicked shot. He just doesn’t shoot enough.

There’s a reason guys like Danielson, Minten and Poitras looked so good against NHL players, but aren’t dominant scoring forces against kids their own age. First of all, they’re not just goal scorers…. They’re complete players, and most importantly, they “think the game” at that elite level needed, to play in the NHL.

That’s your first ticket into the NHL. Whether your a Bedard or a Poitras. It’s what separates NHL players, from other players in other leagues.

It doesn’t however, always equal massive stats in junior hockey. Frankly, because the players they’re playing with, don’t “process play” as quickly. We seen some of that at World Juniors, where Poitras, Minten, Danielson and even Beck to a lessor extent, would make a play, and their linemate didn’t know it was coming, etc, because they don’t “think the game” at that same elite level.

Like I said, fans have to be real careful about statistic watching in junior hockey, over players with NHL skill sets, who also “think the game” at a higher than Junior level. Sometimes those players are two steps ahead of other kids their own age. You end up watching a lot of dynamic plays that go for not, because teammates aren’t processing the game at the same rate. Like I said, watch Portland. You’ll know pretty quickly how good Danielson is. He’s the best player on the ice, more than he’s not, and Portland is loaded.

Just take a look at that same Portland roster as a further example. Stefan, Klassen and O’Brien aren’t even drafted players, yet 2 put up huge numbers. Look at a kid like Ritchie in the OHL . There’s a reason he was left off Canada’s WJT, especially on Olympic ice. He’d been healthy a month before camp….

Those kids almost solely use their physical maturity to score at lower levels, because they can, but lack other high-end NHL skills, and don’t “process the game” quick enough to play in the league. At least not yet…. That’s why you still draft a Ritchie late in the 1st or 2nd round. You hope they develop that ability to “think the game” at a higher level because they have finishing skills. They just don’t translate to the NHL by themselves, like maybe a Caufield or Benson would. They simply don’t have other elite attributes like those 2 guys do.

If you have high-end skill, like a Poitras or a Danielson, but also think the game, driving play, teams know that skill will continue to develop, and they will take that player every single time, over players who are great finishers in Junior, but don’t have much else yet. Stefan and Klassen weren’t even drafted.

Being more physically mature stops working, once you turn pro. There’s 2 dozen great CHL players every year, who put up huge stats, who never sniff scoring in the NHL, while many players, who are closer to a PPG in those same junior leagues, play and contribute in the NHL much quicker.
 

FriendlyGhost92

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Jun 22, 2023
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I like Chiarot for what he brought to the Habs 4 years ago, but now, he's pretty useless to us. To take him we need incentive as a cap dump.

So any trade for a youngster with Chiarot in it is already minus a late 2nd. Or a vet goes the other way.

Another huge issue I have is that until a prospect is in the NHL, it's ALL based on "potential". The value is not the same as a kid that has 2-3 season in the NHL and proving his abilities.

Pretty sure the incentive for taking Chiarot is you're getting rid of your God awful winger who's paid more for longer...

Montreal comes out on the better end of the cap dump. Matheson for Danielson/Kasper + 2nd is like Detroit asking for Slaf/Reinbacher/Hutson and a 2nd in exchange for Ghost...
 

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