Most dominant players of all time?

C77

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Orr + Gretzky and everyone else takes a back seat.

Was watching this video of the Great One earlier.

I have never seen anyone with the level of agility, balance, nimbleness, and fluidity of movement like Gretzky. Combine that with the vision...the guy was from another planet.

 

Alwalys

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Orr + Gretzky and everyone else takes a back seat.

Was watching this video of the Great One earlier.

I have never seen anyone with the level of agility, balance, nimbleness, and fluidity of movement like Gretzky. Combine that with the vision...the guy was from another planet.



gretzky's numbers certainly speak for themselves with just how far he outstripped everyone else but i swear every highlight video I see, I'm left thinking that maybe at best 30% of those goals go in in today's NHL. Defensive structure and goalie play was just so bad compared to today's game, and it's not gretzky breaking it down, it's players just flat out not being as good as they are now.
 

C77

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gretzky's numbers certainly speak for themselves with just how far he outstripped everyone else but i swear every highlight video I see, I'm left thinking that maybe at best 30% of those goals go in in today's NHL. Defensive structure and goalie play was just so bad compared to today's game, and it's not gretzky breaking it down, it's players just flat out not being as good as they are now.

He would certainly lose a lot of the beautiful slapshot goals due to the ridiculous size and equipment of the goalies which is a crying shame.
 

Alwalys

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He would certainly lose a lot of the beautiful slapshot goals due to the ridiculous size and equipment of the goalies which is a crying shame.

I'm not sure if it is a shame or not. I think the slappers would go away moreso because of the better defense; you just don't have time for that anymore.

But I'd say overall, it's like he was playing a modern superstar game in the era before anyone even knew how to play modern hockey.
 

Los Patos de Anaheim

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gretzky's numbers certainly speak for themselves with just how far he outstripped everyone else but i swear every highlight video I see, I'm left thinking that maybe at best 30% of those goals go in in today's NHL. Defensive structure and goalie play was just so bad compared to today's game, and it's not gretzky breaking it down, it's players just flat out not being as good as they are now.

Imo Gretzky is the smartest player ever, and if he was born in the 90s and coming into the league today with his prime skill set, he'd be a Johnny Gaudreau player rather than a Wayne Gretzky player.
 

Treb

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gretzky's numbers certainly speak for themselves with just how far he outstripped everyone else but i swear every highlight video I see, I'm left thinking that maybe at best 30% of those goals go in in today's NHL. Defensive structure and goalie play was just so bad compared to today's game, and it's not gretzky breaking it down, it's players just flat out not being as good as they are now.

He'd probably find other ways to score. He scored those ways because he could. He would score less than he did, but there is little doubt in my mind he would a perennial Richard contender and Art Ross favorite.

Imo Gretzky is the smartest player ever, and if he was born in the 90s and coming into the league today with his prime skill set, he'd be a Johnny Gaudreau player rather than a Wayne Gretzky player.

A rich man taller Gaudreau I can see it.
 

The Panther

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gretzky's numbers certainly speak for themselves with just how far he outstripped everyone else but i swear every highlight video I see, I'm left thinking that maybe at best 30% of those goals go in in today's NHL. Defensive structure and goalie play was just so bad compared to today's game, and it's not gretzky breaking it down, it's players just flat out not being as good as they are now.

He would certainly lose a lot of the beautiful slapshot goals due to the ridiculous size and equipment of the goalies which is a crying shame.
Has it ever occurred to you guys that if "Gretzky" were 23-years-old today he wouldn't be playing/shooting/skating in exactly the same way he did in 1984???

Like, he would play according to the dictates of today's game...?

Which is why any discussion of how Player-X would fare today is an irrelevant waste of time.
 

The Panther

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Tony Hand absolutely crushed his peers. Nobody else showed similar dominance.
Funny, but not true. Plenty of players crushed their peers more than Tony Hand did in North American major-junior or junior hockey. And they did it against better competition than Tony Hand did. (Hell, bantam hockey would be better competition than Tony Hand's.)
 

FlyerFire

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I am assuming this question is of the modern era because tbh, there are so many greats that I never had the chance to see that might have been more dominant than players today. We simply do not have that vision of years to have seen all of these players. You would assume that players got bigger, better, stronger and more dominant, but how do you know? Modern era I would say what most have already. Lindros, Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Mario, etc
 

The Panther

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Back to my point, above, about Gretzky: Let's break down a few of the early clips in that video-package (I'm doing this not for 'mature' fans who understand the nature of sports, but for younger fans who might not).

The first two clips in that video-package are from 1987 and 1977 respectively (one when Gretzky is 16, which is remote from today). The second one, from 1987, is a great clip of PP-stick-handling against Chicago, but they were just an average team (he didn't score on that clip, incidentally).

Let's look at the next 6 video-clips:

3) Beautiful goal vs. Vancouver during 1997-98, early dead-puck era and the era of giant defensive bruisers. (Players on the Canucks included Bure, Bertuzzi, Naslund, Ohlund.)

4) Nice slapper vs. Boston in 1986-87 -- the defenceman whom Gretzky makes his b**** in this clip is Hall of Famer, Ray Bourque, a teammate of Alex Tanguay, who retired this (last?) year.

5) This goal I can't place, but it's c.1982 against St.Louis. The goaltender is All Star Mike Liut, probably, but that won't impress anyone under 25.

6) Nice goal vs. the Flames (I was at this game, 15th row, center). The defenceman whom Gretzky dekes out of his underwear is Hall of Famer, Al MacInnis, who played until 2003, and was a teammate of current players like Jarome Iginla.

7) Nice goal vs. Panthers in playoffs 1997. The goalie Gretzky beats (3 times, that night) is Vezina winner John Vanbiesbrouck, who by the way had a .929 save percentage in that series -- better than most playoff goalies today -- and lost.


What is my point? The point is that all-time talented players nearly all cross generations and time-periods, Gretzky being no exception. Gretzky won scoring titles in 1981 and in 1994. He was the top North American per-game point producer in 1980 and in 1998.

One of the main reason the NHL circa 1980 (see: the very early clips vs. Toronto in that highlight package) looks so "old", and the NHL circa 1995 look so different is because of Gretzky. His level of play was so much higher than any other player during the period 1980 to 1988 or so that the entire League had to improve. The Oilers' style of game (following the Islanders), along with a few other elite teams, improved the level of play up to the early/mid-90s' level and beyond.

It's absurd to imagine that a talent at Gretzky's level would simply stagnate at 1982-level of play if he were alive today. The fact that an old, beat-up Gretzky on a terrible team was still the top-scoring N.A. player in 1998 -- twenty years after turning pro and in a very different League from 1979 -- proves beyond any doubt that a young Gretzky today would be just as dominant, relative to era.
 

toomuchsauce

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lol this thread, nobody got it yet:

Matthews, Matthews, Matthews, Marner, Liljegren

no one else is even good, or ever even was good
 

Mbraunm

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Back to my point, above, about Gretzky: Let's break down a few of the early clips in that video-package (I'm doing this not for 'mature' fans who understand the nature of sports, but for younger fans who might not).

The first two clips in that video-package are from 1987 and 1977 respectively (one when Gretzky is 16, which is remote from today). The second one, from 1987, is a great clip of PP-stick-handling against Chicago, but they were just an average team (he didn't score on that clip, incidentally).

Let's look at the next 6 video-clips:

3) Beautiful goal vs. Vancouver during 1997-98, early dead-puck era and the era of giant defensive bruisers. (Players on the Canucks included Bure, Bertuzzi, Naslund, Ohlund.)

4) Nice slapper vs. Boston in 1986-87 -- the defenceman whom Gretzky makes his b**** in this clip is Hall of Famer, Ray Bourque, a teammate of Alex Tanguay, who retired this (last?) year.

5) This goal I can't place, but it's c.1982 against St.Louis. The goaltender is All Star Mike Liut, probably, but that won't impress anyone under 25.

6) Nice goal vs. the Flames (I was at this game, 15th row, center). The defenceman whom Gretzky dekes out of his underwear is Hall of Famer, Al MacInnis, who played until 2003, and was a teammate of current players like Jarome Iginla.

7) Nice goal vs. Panthers in playoffs 1997. The goalie Gretzky beats (3 times, that night) is Vezina winner John Vanbiesbrouck, who by the way had a .929 save percentage in that series -- better than most playoff goalies today -- and lost.


What is my point? The point is that all-time talented players nearly all cross generations and time-periods, Gretzky being no exception. Gretzky won scoring titles in 1981 and in 1994. He was the top North American per-game point producer in 1980 and in 1998.

One of the main reason the NHL circa 1980 (see: the very early clips vs. Toronto in that highlight package) looks so "old", and the NHL circa 1995 look so different is because of Gretzky. His level of play was so much higher than any other player during the period 1980 to 1988 or so that the entire League had to improve. The Oilers' style of game (following the Islanders), along with a few other elite teams, improved the level of play up to the early/mid-90s' level and beyond.

It's absurd to imagine that a talent at Gretzky's level would simply stagnate at 1982-level of play if he were alive today. The fact that an old, beat-up Gretzky on a terrible team was still the top-scoring N.A. player in 1998 -- twenty years after turning pro and in a very different League from 1979 -- proves beyond any doubt that a young Gretzky today would be just as dominant, relative to era.

This is so true - I could not have stated the truth better!
 

KoozNetsOff 92

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Apr 6, 2016
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Back to my point, above, about Gretzky: Let's break down a few of the early clips in that video-package (I'm doing this not for 'mature' fans who understand the nature of sports, but for younger fans who might not).

The first two clips in that video-package are from 1987 and 1977 respectively (one when Gretzky is 16, which is remote from today). The second one, from 1987, is a great clip of PP-stick-handling against Chicago, but they were just an average team (he didn't score on that clip, incidentally).

Let's look at the next 6 video-clips:

3) Beautiful goal vs. Vancouver during 1997-98, early dead-puck era and the era of giant defensive bruisers. (Players on the Canucks included Bure, Bertuzzi, Naslund, Ohlund.)

4) Nice slapper vs. Boston in 1986-87 -- the defenceman whom Gretzky makes his b**** in this clip is Hall of Famer, Ray Bourque, a teammate of Alex Tanguay, who retired this (last?) year.

5) This goal I can't place, but it's c.1982 against St.Louis. The goaltender is All Star Mike Liut, probably, but that won't impress anyone under 25.

6) Nice goal vs. the Flames (I was at this game, 15th row, center). The defenceman whom Gretzky dekes out of his underwear is Hall of Famer, Al MacInnis, who played until 2003, and was a teammate of current players like Jarome Iginla.

7) Nice goal vs. Panthers in playoffs 1997. The goalie Gretzky beats (3 times, that night) is Vezina winner John Vanbiesbrouck, who by the way had a .929 save percentage in that series -- better than most playoff goalies today -- and lost.


What is my point? The point is that all-time talented players nearly all cross generations and time-periods, Gretzky being no exception. Gretzky won scoring titles in 1981 and in 1994. He was the top North American per-game point producer in 1980 and in 1998.

One of the main reason the NHL circa 1980 (see: the very early clips vs. Toronto in that highlight package) looks so "old", and the NHL circa 1995 look so different is because of Gretzky. His level of play was so much higher than any other player during the period 1980 to 1988 or so that the entire League had to improve. The Oilers' style of game (following the Islanders), along with a few other elite teams, improved the level of play up to the early/mid-90s' level and beyond.

It's absurd to imagine that a talent at Gretzky's level would simply stagnate at 1982-level of play if he were alive today. The fact that an old, beat-up Gretzky on a terrible team was still the top-scoring N.A. player in 1998 -- twenty years after turning pro and in a very different League from 1979 -- proves beyond any doubt that a young Gretzky today would be just as dominant, relative to era.

The worst part is when people say "Gretzky today wouldn't get Xpts because players are bigger, stronger, etc, access to video, nutrition, etc". Like wouldn't Gretzky get all of that stuff too? Lol.
 

Alwalys

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May 19, 2010
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He'd probably find other ways to score. He scored those ways because he could. He would score less than he did, but there is little doubt in my mind he would a perennial Richard contender and Art Ross favorite.

he'd certainly be a superstar. I feel like maybe a better datsyuk.

Has it ever occurred to you guys that if "Gretzky" were 23-years-old today he wouldn't be playing/shooting/skating in exactly the same way he did in 1984???

Like, he would play according to the dictates of today's game...?

Which is why any discussion of how Player-X would fare today is an irrelevant waste of time.

actually i think a lot of today's game is similar to how gretzky played. it's just that no one else was playing today's game back then so he played circles around them.
 

Lou is God

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Doug Gilmour in his 2 year Leafs peak. He was utterly dominant in all aspects of the game. I don't think I have every seen a "mere mortal" player dominate and be as important to his team as Gilmour was in 93 and 94. Maybe only Mario and Gretzky were more dominant for their team.

That version of Gilmour might not be the "best" player. But in importance to his team, and able to help a team win through his own efforts peak Gilmour was really dominant. He did everything. He was the pulse and heartbeat and leader. He was dominant defensively and offensively. On special teams. He was physical. He was awesome.

During there short time together Gilmour and Dave Andreychuk were a deadly duo, Andreychuk would just find a spot in the slot and before you knew it Gilmour had delivered the puck to his stick and shot was off.

In a two year period Gilmour in the playoffs had 16 goals and 47 assists in 39 games.
 

David Bruce Banner

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The worst part is when people say "Gretzky today wouldn't get Xpts because players are bigger, stronger, etc, access to video, nutrition, etc". Like wouldn't Gretzky get all of that stuff too? Lol.

The question is akin to asking what the most dominant army of all time is. The answer, arguably, would be the Mongols. Now, every modern army could mop the floor with them, but the answer remains, for sheer dominance, the Mongols.
 

Mbraunm

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Oct 19, 2016
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The question is akin to asking what the most dominant army of all time is. The answer, arguably, would be the Mongols. Now, every modern army could mop the floor with them, but the answer remains, for sheer dominance, the Mongols.

Due to the fact that Gretzky and Lemieux were top producers (even though old and broken down) in the DPE, I think it is very safe to say that in their prime they would be the best in today's NHL. I don't think that comparing Mongol's (Gretzky) to modern armies (modern NHL) is appropriate. I mean, in the Bobby Orr thread that recently discussed how he would do in the modern NHL, it was proven through video frame analysis that Orr, using old, 1970s equipment, skated just as fast as McDavid. (the analysis compared Orr skating with the puck in a game, to McDavid skating without the puck in the All Star game speed competition). So, in terms of elite talent, not much has really changed between the era's. It's the bottom 6 skill levels which has increased in the modern era.
 

authentic

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Due to the fact that Gretzky and Lemieux were top producers (even though old and broken down) in the DPE, I think it is very safe to say that in their prime they would be the best in today's NHL. I don't think that comparing Mongol's (Gretzky) to modern armies (modern NHL) is appropriate. I mean, in the Bobby Orr thread that recently discussed how he would do in the modern NHL, it was proven through video frame analysis that Orr, using old, 1970s equipment, skated just as fast as McDavid. (the analysis compared Orr skating with the puck in a game, to McDavid skating without the puck in the All Star game speed competition). So, in terms of elite talent, not much has really changed between the era's. It's the bottom 6 skill levels which has increased in the modern era.

There is a heck of a lot more to consider than just straight ahead speed from blue line to blue line though. Orr did not have anywhere close to the overall skill that McDavid or Crosby have, which is most because of when he was born but it is what it is.
 

Alwalys

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Due to the fact that Gretzky and Lemieux were top producers (even though old and broken down) in the DPE, I think it is very safe to say that in their prime they would be the best in today's NHL.

i don't think this case can be made. scoring today is as low as the absolute depth of the dead puck era, and has been that way for many years. but what marked the dead puck era is a lax attitude toward obstruction along with rules like the 2 line pass that kept transition slower. If a player could avoid the obstruction through skill and/or protection, then that player faced a generally lesser defensive scenario.

Defense in today's game is so much better because it actually deals with players making plays. You watch any highlight package and you can see how much less developed defensive structure was compared to today.

It's the bottom 6 skill levels which has increased in the modern era.

This has also had a huge impact. Studs don't get to feast on scrubs anymore, you have to play competent defense at least to play these days.
 

Tad Mikowsky

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i don't think this case can be made. scoring today is as low as the absolute depth of the dead puck era, and has been that way for many years. but what marked the dead puck era is a lax attitude toward obstruction along with rules like the 2 line pass that kept transition slower. If a player could avoid the obstruction through skill and/or protection, then that player faced a generally lesser defensive scenario.

Defense in today's game is so much better because it actually deals with players making plays. You watch any highlight package and you can see how much less developed defensive structure was compared to today.



This has also had a huge impact. Studs don't get to feast on scrubs anymore, you have to play competent defense at least to play these days.

You should show Gretzky some respect. He's a big reason why your favorite team even has a team.
 

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