Moritz Seider & his usage/level of play

[Frk It]

If you would have told me 5 years ago we would draft a player like Seider I would be stoked. If you would have told me he would be used the way he is right now, I would be baffled.

So far this year Seider is playing 16:07 a night at even strength which is good for 130th in the league among defenseman. Players such as Brenden Dillon, Jeff Petry, Zach Whitecloud, and Ian Cole are seeing more time at even strength per night than Seider is.

I cannot understand why this is happening because to me the whole point of having a player like Seider is you can play them big minutes. When I look at players I think he is comparable to they are getting a lot more minutes at ES than Seider is.

I have mentioned this in a few other threads but I think it is deserving of a thread where we can discuss it exclusively. Is he just not as good as we think he is or is this pretty ridiculous that he is not playing more... what does everyone think?

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[Ricelund]

I suspect that he and Walman are both playing hurt.

 

[Frk It]

I suspect that he and Walman are both playing hurt.

I would hope there is some kind of rationale for his usage this year, because I would have thought his minutes would go up, not down.

But last year his usage was pretty relatively low too. He was at 17:27 a game at ES which was 90th league wide for defenseman.

You look at the leaders in ES TOI per game and it's guys like Dobson, Heiskanen, Dahlin, Parayko... and in my head going into this year I thought Seider was that type of guy and would be used that way.

 

[Detroit Knights]

I suspect that he and Walman are both playing hurt.

I think walman is playing hurt. Not seider and since seider and walman pairing was good last year, they keep pairing them and lowering their minutes because walman keeps blocking shots and getting hurt.

Maybe case and point? Ghost is practicing with seider today and walman was the 7th d i think. He might be sitting since apparently that shot he took to the side of the knee made a pretty good mark.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Honestly he hasn't deserved to play big minutes lately.

Maybe getting him away from Walman will help if they can find pairings that work. Seider has been guilty of trying to do too much and making some wildly out of character decisions, like launching blind backhand passes from around his own net trying to clear the zone. He's done it more than once lately and the best outcome was icing the puck. Then there was a goal last game where he left his man to go play goalie in front of Reimer, which led to an easy goal as the puck was passed to his open man.

I'm confident he can get back to form but right now getting Seider more minutes doesn't seem like the solution to stabilizing things.

 

[Frk It]

Honestly he hasn't deserved to play big minutes lately.

Maybe getting him away from Walman will help if they can find pairings that work. Seider has been guilty of trying to do too much and making some wildly out of character decisions, like launching blind backhand passes from around his own net trying to clear the zone. He's done it more than once lately and the best outcome was icing the puck. Then there was a goal last game where he left his man to go play goalie in front of Reimer, which led to an easy goal as the puck was passed to his open man.

I'm confident he can get back to form but right now getting Seider more minutes doesn't seem like the solution to stabilizing things.

I am curious to discuss both his usage and his level of play and see what people think.

I would agree in December he has not been playing at the level I expect out of him.

 

[raymond23]

We’re playing a 40 year old cap dump more than our cornerstone franchise defenseman

No words can accurately describe my frustration level

From Yzerman down to Lalonde, this organization is being mismanaged in some pretty critical ways

Honestly he hasn't deserved to play big minutes lately.

Maybe getting him away from Walman will help if they can find pairings that work. Seider has been guilty of trying to do too much and making some wildly out of character decisions, like launching blind backhand passes from around his own net trying to clear the zone. He's done it more than once lately and the best outcome was icing the puck. Then there was a goal last game where he left his man to go play goalie in front of Reimer, which led to an easy goal as the puck was passed to his open man.

I'm confident he can get back to form but right now getting Seider more minutes doesn't seem like the solution to stabilizing things.

So the solution is to play Jeff Petry more?

This feels like the Ken Holland era all over again

 

[RRhoads]

We’re playing a 40 year old cap dump more than our cornerstone franchise defenseman

No words can accurately describe my frustration level

From Yzerman down to Lalonde, this organization is being mismanaged in some pretty critical ways



So the solution is to play Jeff Petry more?

This feels like the Ken Holland era all over again

I'll take Petry over Lilja

 

[DoMakc]

I'll take Petry over Lilja

Lilja was third pairing D on Cup winning team. When Lilja was paired with Lidström team went out in the first round. I don't mind Petry as 6th D, the issue is, there are like 3-4 defensemen who i don't mind as 6th D, but not more

 

[Detroit Knights]

well fast forward to the 10 minute mark and he talks about seider

 

[RedHawkDown]

It’s absurd. We lost 7/8 this months you cannot with a straight face tell me that we “can’t afford” to play Seider more…because we’re losing anyways playing Petry and Chariot like they’re defensive cornerstones.

 

[Realgud]

I thought he was not very good at the beginning of the season, where I thought reducing his ice-time made sense even though he was still our best dman but as a young player it's sometimes beneficial to take a step back, take less responsibilities and re-center your game... but I think he has been very good for many weeks now, and letting him play 25 minutes a night might be better for him to reach his best level of play instead of playing 16 minutes behind vet pressbox level of defensemen that allow 5 goals a game... this isn't beneficial to anyone. Seider, Lyon and Berggren (and Edvinsson for that matter) should all see a lot more ice-time than they currently do, imo. I don't understand this obsession with subpar play from vets instead of giving better players a chance to shine, especially with the underwhelming record right now. I share the frustration.

 

[kook10]

Honestly he hasn't deserved to play big minutes lately.

Maybe getting him away from Walman will help if they can find pairings that work. Seider has been guilty of trying to do too much and making some wildly out of character decisions, like launching blind backhand passes from around his own net trying to clear the zone. He's done it more than once lately and the best outcome was icing the puck. Then there was a goal last game where he left his man to go play goalie in front of Reimer, which led to an easy goal as the puck was passed to his open man.

I'm confident he can get back to form but right now getting Seider more minutes doesn't seem like the solution to stabilizing things.

He has been raised to be a full two-way defenseman and given a very long leash on our shitty teams, but he is sort of in between-land. He won't be mistaken for Makar or Hughes or Fox on the O-side and doesn't have the transition quickness to get caught up on the half wall like he does when modern strategy involves mobile defense in the zone. Unfortunately, at this point I think his more-than-occasional poor decisions also indicate that his D-zone instincts aren't the best, so good coaching and system play will have to offset that. I am hopeful that the diminished ice time is Newsy holding him accountable, but he needs more concrete direction and mentoring too. He tries to do too much for a "sink or swim" approach.

 

[RRhoads]

Lilja was third pairing D on Cup winning team. When Lilja was paired with Lidström team went out in the first round. I don't mind Petry as 6th D, the issue is, there are like 3-4 defensemen who i don't mind as 6th D, but not more

I was comparing Seider's play in the Dzone to Lilja.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

We’re playing a 40 year old cap dump more than our cornerstone franchise defenseman

No words can accurately describe my frustration level

From Yzerman down to Lalonde, this organization is being mismanaged in some pretty critical ways



So the solution is to play Jeff Petry more?

This feels like the Ken Holland era all over again

I never said the solution was to play Jeff Petry more. Also he's 36 and the Habs retained on him.

Though it's notable that even during the losing streak, Petry and Chiarot have not been the big problems. Don't get me wrong, I still think Seider should be getting the most TOI in general but he's not been great lately. I also don't really care how much other teams are playing their young D men.

 

[GMR]

I'll take Petry over Lilja

Wrong. Lilja was handsome and occasionally fought. He and Lebda were actually a decent pairing.

Petry should be traded back to Montreal, or wherever he came from.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It’s absurd. We lost 7/8 this months you cannot with a straight face tell me that we “can’t afford” to play Seider more…because we’re losing anyways playing Petry and Chariot like they’re defensive cornerstones.

Right but I don't think the reasoning should be "we're losing anyway so might as well play Seider more minutes." Would you really feel better if they lost 7 of 8 but Seider played 28 minutes?

Maybe playing Seider more minutes will help right the ship but the way he's played lately he's not making a super strong case for himself. That's not to say he's been bad overall, but uncharacteristically uneven in his play.

 

[kook10]

Right but I don't think the reasoning should be "we're losing anyway so might as well play Seider more minutes." Would you really feel better if they lost 7 of 8 but Seider played 28 minutes?

Maybe playing Seider more minutes will help right the ship but the way he's played lately he's not making a super strong case for himself. That's not to say he's been bad overall, but uncharacteristically uneven in his play.

He is in a contract year, so having him underperform isn't the worst thing for the long term success of the team. Not long ago people were falling all over themselves to give him $10m x 8 right out of the gate. Maybe we will have some room to get some real help after all.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Right but I don't think the reasoning should be "we're losing anyway so might as well play Seider more minutes." Would you really feel better if they lost 7 of 8 but Seider played 28 minutes?

Maybe playing Seider more minutes will help right the ship but the way he's played lately he's not making a super strong case for himself. That's not to say he's been bad overall, but uncharacteristically uneven in his play.

Yes I would feel a lot better because 1) it would give our franchise Dman the chance to learn from a rough streak in which he plays many minutes, and 2) if he’s truly terrible in those 28 minutes consistently, it would help demonstrate that we may need to look elsewhere for a franchise defenseman. Playing Petry and chiarot for 20+ minutes and still losing has ZERO upside or informative value - in any conceivable way.

 

[Frk It]

Right but I don't think the reasoning should be "we're losing anyway so might as well play Seider more minutes." Would you really feel better if they lost 7 of 8 but Seider played 28 minutes?

I mean, Dahlin hasn't been flawless the last few years with the amount of minutes he's gotten. But Buffalo still decided, this is the best thing we have so we are going to throw him out there as much as possible. I'm just surprised we aren't doing either that or even something closer to that with Seider.

Do I think playing a lot of minutes now even though he is having some struggles would be beneficial for him in the long run? Yes.

 

[RedWingzz]

If you would have told me 5 years ago we would draft a player like Seider I would be stoked. If you would have told me he would be used the way he is right now, I would be baffled.

So far this year Seider is playing 16:07 a night at even strength which is good for 130th in the league among defenseman. Players such as Brenden Dillon, Jeff Petry, Zach Whitecloud, and Ian Cole are seeing more time at even strength per night than Seider is.

I cannot understand why this is happening because to me the whole point of having a player like Seider is you can play them big minutes. When I look at players I think he is comparable to they are getting a lot more minutes at ES than Seider is.

I have mentioned this in a few other threads but I think it is deserving of a thread where we can discuss it exclusively. Is he just not as good as we think he is or is this pretty ridiculous that he is not playing more... what does everyone think?

I know this sounds insane, but at this point I truly believe management is telling the coaching staff to limit opportunities for Seider and Raymond in order to save money on their extensions.

Again, not what I would do, but I'm not sure how they can justify the lack of opportunity for Seider and Raymond.

 

[RedWingzz]

I never said the solution was to play Jeff Petry more. Also he's 36 and the Habs retained on him.

Though it's notable that even during the losing streak, Petry and Chiarot have not been the big problems. Don't get me wrong, I still think Seider should be getting the most TOI in general but he's not been great lately. I also don't really care how much other teams are playing their young D men.

it's a catch 22 though, if he hasn't been great, and you limit his minutes, and he's not on the ice enough, how is he supposed to be great?

It's like Raymond...like of course Raymond hasn't been great the last 2 weeks, they've taken him off the top PP unit, and off the first line. I'm not sure how we expect Raymond to be great when he doesn't see the ice on the PP

 

[jkutswings]

There's lots of things I want to see. But realistically, most of them would need to begin by Seider actually taking ownership of his role. It's not that I think he's played poorly - it's that I don't see a level of play that demands the role that I know he has the talent to one day fulfill.

The entire roster feels rudderless on defense. Until one or more guys step up and lead by example, I don't see any significant changes. Whether that's fair to Mo or not is certainly debatable, but the team is a mix of kids that haven't fully clicked yet and vets that either don't have the skill set for it or choose not to sufficiently deploy it.

As has been said many times before, it takes about five years for most top defensemen to really hit their stride. I'm not worried about Seider; he's just not there yet (and nobody around him is doing him any favors).

 

[Detroit Knights]

I mean, Dahlin hasn't been flawless the last few years with the amount of minutes he's gotten. But Buffalo still decided, this is the best thing we have so we are going to throw him out there as much as possible. I'm just surprised we aren't doing either that or even something closer to that with Seider.

Do I think playing a lot of minutes now even though he is having some struggles would be beneficial for him in the long run? Yes.

Yes...but with that being said, how has buffalo done with this tactic? Not great. So, if that is the barometer, shouldn't we do the opposite then?

Yes I would feel a lot better because 1) it would give our franchise Dman the chance to learn from a rough streak in which he plays many minutes, and 2) if he’s truly terrible in those 28 minutes consistently, it would help demonstrate that we may need to look elsewhere for a franchise defenseman. Playing Petry and chiarot for 20+ minutes and still losing has ZERO upside or informative value - in any conceivable way.

But this makes little sense. If Seider is out there at 28 minutes and continues to fail, but is doing it longer, that will start to hinder his abilities. I am all for going through the suck to come out better, but if he continues to play bad and for extended periods of time, then we are killing his development and growth with the disguise of thinking it's better for him.

He is already learning what a rough streak is playing however many minutes he's playing now. So, giving him more and more minutes to continue to fail is not going to help. You also can't just move on to another franchise defenseman because if you did this to seider who is pretty high up on the totem pole, then you are going to do the exact same thing to your next possible franchise d-man and ruin that one too.

You need to taste success in order to continue eating. If you continue to fail after being put in tough positions, then you are just going to keep failing and always be starving.

 

[Detroit Knights]

There's lots of things I want to see. But realistically, most of them would need to begin by Seider actually taking ownership of his role. It's not that I think he's played poorly - it's that I don't see a level of play that demands the role that I know he has the talent to one day fulfill.

The entire roster feels rudderless on defense. Until one or more guys step up and lead by example, I don't see any significant changes. Whether that's fair to Mo or not is certainly debatable, but the team is a mix of kids that haven't fully clicked yet and vets that either don't have the skill set for it or choose not to sufficiently deploy it.

As has been said many times before, it takes about five years for most top defensemen to really hit their stride. I'm not worried about Seider; he's just not there yet (and nobody around him is doing him any favors).

This is where I have an issue with seider. When he started playing, I saw some good offense that he could provide, but I mainly saw a physical specimen that can put you on your ass if you try him too much. I think, and most will disagree so can't wait, he would be much better if he focused on a defensive game and limited his offensive play. He can obviously do well in offense, I mean he has what over 100 points now, not bad at all. But if he just focused on defense, I think our defense as a whole would be astronomically better.

I think it would also be awesome if our defense stopped pinching in all the time because that's why we are always on odd man rushes. We have the offense on our team that can take care of our goals, but we are always losing because our defense is horrid, leaves the goalie out to dry, and our goalies scream ole