Montreal Expos, what's next? UPDATE 3/25 - Stephen Bronfman says “I think we’re close.”

[Scandale du Jour]

You're overlooking a few fundamentals here. To do this, ownership in Ottawa or any of the potential AA markets you suggest would have to purchase an extant International League and Eastern League franchise and relocate them. Many MLB teams, including Tampa, don't own their Double-A or Triple-A affiliates but instead rely on player development contracts with independently owned MiLB teams. Since you're talkinga bout the relocation of the Rays, they only own their Advanced-A team (the Florida State League's Charlotte Stone Crabs) and their Rookie team (the Appalachian League's Princeton Rays). Triple-A (Durham Bulls), Double-A (Montgomery Biscuits), Low-A (Bowling Green Hot Rods), and Short Season A (Hudson Valley Renegades) are all owned by different, independent ownership groups. So either you have ownership in Ottawa and QC/Laval/Trois-Rivieres purchase a team and relocate them or you have this new Montreal ownership purchase those teams and relocate them. Not an easy ask as, last I've heard, there are no teams in either League with owners really interested in selling. The Richmond Flying Squirrels are in a stadium conundrum but, last I heard, were still engaged in active talks with the city of Richmond to replace The Diamond.

Second, the three AA leagues (the Eastern, Southern, and Texas Leagues) are bus leagues. The cities you're talking about would be closest in proximity to the Eastern League. All but Laval would represent a significant increase in average distance to the rest of the League and would likely meet with some amount of resistance from the rest of the League. At present, the cities in the EL average 329.85 miles apart with Reading, PA having the lowest average distance to the rest of the League (249.05 miles) and Portland, ME having the highest (468.13 miles). On average QC is 587.83 miles from the rest of the League, Trois-Riviers is 524.75 miles, and Laval is 467.08 miles. The mileage from QC is darned near undoable given the travel rules MLB requires on MiLB for bus trips (the rule exists that if a team travels more than 500 miles in one trip, they have to have a day off.) Here's your mileage from QC, Trois-Rivieres, and Laval to the rest of the Eastern League. I'll still include Richmond just for the sake of arguing in case another team's ownership has them on the market.

| Akron, OH | Altoona, PA | Binghamton, NY | Bowie, MD | Erie, PA | Harrisburg, PA | Hartford, CT | Manchester, NH | Portland, ME | Reading, PA | Richmond, VA | Trenton, NJ Quebec City, QC |765|690|495|721|645|661|429|347|270|618|840|573
Trois-Rivieres, QC |682|607|405|656|562|597|379|297|274|554|776|508
Laval, QC |606|531|329|592|486|509|348|278|281|489|712|444

So at best, your closest city to any of them is going to be either Portland or Manchester and that's anywhere from 270 to 280 miles away. The present edges of the League, Richmond, Akron, and Portland, all have another team no more than 130 miles away.

At any rate, long-winded way of saying talks of relocating a AAA or AA franchise (especially AA) to QC is more fantasy than reality.

I don't know much, if at all, about MiLB, but, in light of the information you just provided, I realize that moving existing teams might be a very difficult task. However, let's say that the Rays were to move to Montreal, the Expos would be VERY FAR from their affiliates. Could that be a problem?

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I don't know much, if at all, about MiLB, but, in light of the information you just provided, I realize that moving existing teams might be a very difficult task. However, let's say that the Rays were to move to Montreal, the Expos would be VERY FAR from their affiliates. Could that be a problem?

Not really. Let's look at Triple-A to start. Offhand you have the New York Mets affiliated with the Las Vegas 51, the Miami Marlins affiliated with the New Orleans Zephyrs, the Oakland A's affiliated with the Nashville Sounds...this is going to be a dense table but here's where everybody's affiliates are:

|AAA|AA|Advanced A|Low A|Short Season A|Rookie
Arizona|Reno, NV|Jackson, TN|Visalia, CA|Geneva, IL|Hillsboro, OR|Missoula, MT
Atlanta|Lawrenceville, GA*|Pearl, MS*|Kissimmee, FL|Rome, GA*|---|Danville, VA*
Baltimore|Norfolk, VA|Bowie, MD|Frederick, MD|Salisbury, MD|Aberdeen, MD|---
Boston|Pawtucket, RI*|Portland, ME|Salem, VA*|Greenville, SC|Lowell, MA|---
Chicago (AL)|Charlotte, NC|Birmingham, AL|Winston-Salem, NC*|Kannapolis, NC|---|Great Falls, MT
Chicago (NL)|Des Moines, IA|Kodak, TN|Myrtle Beach, SC|South Bend, IN|Eugene, OR|---
Cincinnati|Louisville, KY|Pensacola, FL|Daytona, FL|Dayton, OH|---|Billings, MT
Cleveland|Columbus, OH|Akron, OH|Lynchburg, VA|Eastlake, OH|Niles, OH|---
Colorado|Albuquerque, NM|Hartford, CT|Lancaster, CA|Asheville, NC|Boise, ID|Grand Junction, CO*
Detroit|Toledo, OH|Erie, PA|Lakeland, FL*|Comstock Park, MI|Norwich, CT|---
Houston|Fresno, CA|Corpus Christi, TX*|Buies Creek, NC*|Davenport, IA|Troy, NY|Greeneville, TN*
Kansas City|Omaha, NE|Springdale, AR|Wilmington, DE|Lexington, KY|---|Burlington, NC & Idaho Falls, ID
Los Angeles (AL)|Salt Lake City, UT|Mobile, AL|San Bernardino, CA|Burlington, IA|---|Orem, UT
Los Angeles (NL)|Oklahoma City, OK*|Tulsa, OK|Rancho Cucamonga, CA|Midland, MI|---|Ogden, UT
Miami|New Orleans, LA|Jacksonville, FL|Jupiter, FL*|Greensboro, NC|Batavia, NY|---
Milwaukee|Colorado Springs, CO|Biloxi, AL|Zebulon, NC|Appleton, WI|---|Helena, MT
Minnesota|Rochester, NY|Chattanooga, TN|Fort Myers, FL|Cedar Rapids, IA|---|Elizabethton, TN*
New York (AL)|Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, PA*|Trenton, NJ|Tampa, FL*|Charleston, SC|Staten Island, NY*|Pulaski, VA
New York (NL)|Las Vegas, NV|Binghamton, NY|St. Lucie, FL*|Columbia, SC|Brooklyn, NY*|Kingsport, TN*
Oakland|Nashville, TN|Midland, TX|Stockton, CA|Beloit, WI|Burlington, VT|---
Philadelphia|Allentown, PA|Reading, PA*|Clearwater, FL*|Lakewood, NJ|Williamsport, PA|---
Pittsburgh|Indianapolis, IN|Altoona, PA|Bradenton, FL*|Charleston, WV|Morgantown, WV|Bristol, TN*
San Diego|El Paso, TX|San Antonio, TX|Lake Elsinore, CA|Fort Wayne, IN|Pasco, WA|---
San Francisco|Sacramento, CA|Richmond, VA|San Jose, CA*|Augusta, GA|Salem-Keizer, OR|---
Seattle|Tacoma, WA|Little Rock, AR|Modesto, CA*|Clinton, IA|Everett, WA|---
St. Louis|Memphis, TN*|Springfield, MO*|Palm Beach, FL*|Peoria, IL|State College, PA|Johnson City, TN*
Tampa Bay|Durham, NC|Montgomery, AL|Charlotte, FL|Bowling Green, KY|Wappingers Falls, NY|Princeton, WV*
Texas|Round Rock, TX|Frisco, TX|Kinston, NC*|Hickory, NC|Spokane, WA|---
Toronto|Buffalo, NY|Manchester, NH|Dunedin, FL*|Lansing, MI|Vancouver, BC|Bluefield, WV
Washington|Syracuse, NY|Harrisburg, PA|Woodbridge, VA|Hagerstown, MD|Auburn, NY|---

So what you'll sometimes see with cross-country affiliations at the AAA level is if a team's AA franchise is closer they'll essentially make the AA team their top affiliate - their top prospects will go from there to the Bigs and they'll use AAA to sort of park guys who need more development or aren't quite good enough for the Bigs.In the early '00s, for instance, the Florida Marlins Triple-A affiliate was the Albuquerque Isotopes while their Double-A affiliate was the Carolina Mudcats (who play in Zebulon, NC, just outside of Raleigh). The Marlins would routinely move prospects from Carolina straight to Miami rather than to Albuquerque first. And if you really want the king of long-distance affiliations, for several years, Pittsburgh's Triple-A affiliate was in Honolulu!

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Thank you very much good sir.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Thank you very much good sir.

Not a problem! I'll wrap it up by saying I'll go back and put an * next to teams that are owned by their MLB parent to show how relatively rare that is still, and also to say that the other caveat for where one can place an affiliate is based on the geographic footprint of the leagues at each class. I sort of touched on that earlier but the Mariners, for instance, couldn't have a Low-A affiliate in Washington state because the two Low-A leagues, the Midwest and South Atlantic, are much too far from Washington. Here's the list of leagues at each classification and what states are currently in their footprints

AAA
International League (GA, IN, KY, NC, NY, OH, PA, RI, VA)
Pacific Coast League (CA, CO, IA, LA, NE, NM, NV, OK, TN, TX, UT, WA)

AA
Eastern League (CT, DE, MD, ME, NH, NJ, NY, OH, PA, VA)
Southern League (AL, FL, MS, TN)
Texas League (AR, MO, OK, TX)

Advanced-A
California (CA)
Carolina (DE, MD, NC, SC, VA)
Florida State (FL)

Low-A
Midwest (IA, IL, IN, KY, MI, OH, WI)
South Atlantic (GA, KY, MD, NC, NJ, SC, WV)

Short Season A
New York-Penn League (CT, MD, NY, OH, PA, VT, WV
Northwest League (BC, ID, OR, WA)

Rookie
Appalachian League (NC, TN, VA, WV)
Pioneer League (CO, ID, MT, UT)

 

[bluesfan94]

I never realized how much the Cardinals own of their minor league affiliates

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I have been following baseball since I was around 3 or 4 and never realized how many farm clubs teams had. I thought it was only AAA, AA and A.

 

[bluesfan94]

I did know that but only because I can name all the Cardinals affiliates. They also used to have a rookie league team in Florida. Prior to Peoria, the A team was in Quad Cities and prior to State College, that affiliate was Batavia.

I don't know why I know all this and I don't know how I feel about it

 

[garnetpalmetto]

I have been following baseball since I was around 3 or 4 and never realized how many farm clubs teams had. I thought it was only AAA, AA and A.

And I even went relatively easy on you by not including things like the complex-based rookie leagues in the Arizona League and Gulf Coast League. Those are all owned by their MLB affiliate, play out of their spring training parks, and they don't even sell tickets, so I tend to not include those. The general rule to how many affiliates each team has is that they have an affiliate at each of the full season classifications (Low A, Advanced-A, AA, and AAA) and then one affiliate in at least one of the short season classifications (Short Season A and Rookie).

I did know that but only because I can name all the Cardinals affiliates. They also used to have a rookie league team in Florida. Prior to Peoria, the A team was in Quad Cities and prior to State College, that affiliate was Batavia.

I don't know why I know all this and I don't know how I feel about it

That rookie team would be one of the complex-based teams I mentioned and not worth discussing really. And imagine how I feel knowing all of this and keeping track of it from year to year. On the bright side, if MiLb affiliation histories/team names are ever a Jeopardy category, I'm sweeping it.

 

[bluesfan94]

Hhahaha. But at least it's something you're clearly interested in and put time into. I just know this for some random reason.

 

[Harry22]

Bronfman spoke to the media with a large smile. When asked if he's willing to pay 1 billion dollars for a team he replied, "it's a lot of money but we'll do it"

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Bronfman spoke to the media with a large smile. When asked if he's willing to pay 1 billion dollars for a team he replied, "it's a lot of money but we'll do it"

The only way it can work is if Bell is part of the ownership group, IMO.

 

[OG6ix]

The only way it can work is if Bell is part of the ownership group, IMO.

Well start celebrating because they are involved. Mitch Garber and Stephen Bronfman can pull it off themselves if they wanted. Bell is involved because of course they need content and it will come on the cheap compared to trying to get things like the NHL TV rights. Also, they get merchandise money, attendance, and capital appreciation of a sports team.

It's really no longer about attendance outside of the NHL. The NHL needs attendance because they don't have as much money as the NFL, MLB, and NBA.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

Well start celebrating because they are involved. Mitch Garber and Stephen Bronfman can pull it off themselves if they wanted. Bell is involved because of course they need content and it will come on the cheap compared to trying to get things like the NHL TV rights. Also, they get merchandise money, attendance, and capital appreciation of a sports team.

It's really no longer about attendance outside of the NHL. The NHL needs attendance because they don't have as much money as the NFL, MLB, and NBA.

Bell will be involved for content, indeed. They need summer programming for TSN as Sportsnet has the Jays. RDS will also get the Expos which is great for them as they lost the Impact and TVA Sports has Jays games.

 

[Mightygoose]

Announced attendance tonight 43,180 in the 1 all draw.

Though the smallest single crowd of these pre season games, still allot more than I expected. Really shows how the Big O doesn't work as a long term venue, when you can have this size crowd and still have 10-15K empty seats. Tomorrow looks like it will be close to a full house.

 

[TF97]

Announced attendance tonight 43,180 in the 1 all draw.

Though the smallest single crowd of these pre season games, still allot more than I expected. Really shows how the Big O doesn't work as a long term venue, when you can have this size crowd and still have 10-15K empty seats. Tomorrow looks like it will be close to a full house.

I'm not sure if that was the paid attendance or the people in attendance. But I was there, and there was a bit of a storm in the forecast for tonight, and when the game finished it wasn't very nice out. Wouldn't surprise me if that kept some folks home.

 

[Bjorn Le]

Announced attendance tonight 43,180 in the 1 all draw.

Though the smallest single crowd of these pre season games, still allot more than I expected. Really shows how the Big O doesn't work as a long term venue, when you can have this size crowd and still have 10-15K empty seats. Tomorrow looks like it will be close to a full house.

That's fine. They'd only be on the O for 2 or 3 seasons at absolute most. If they go there temporarily, I'd hope they tarp part of the stands.

Honestly, with revenue sharing and the value of TV contracts a Montreal team is probably guaranteed to make money, and would likely be very successful at ~25,000 a game (which is still much better than Tampa, they only ever drew that much in 1998)

 

[le_sean]

Build a ~35,000 seat stadium in Griffintown and you'll see a packed house most nights. The Big O is annoying to get to. Not much around, not ideal to drive to, one metro stop. As iconic as it was in the skyline, you really feel how empty it is when there's just 20,000 fans.

And while driving to Gtown is not ideal either, at least people can just head over after work by walking.

 

[garnetpalmetto]

Was anything ever built on the spot Labatt Park would have occupied had the Expos not relocated

That's Peel St on the east, de la Montagne to the west, Saint-Jacques to the north, and Notre-Dame to the south, so about two blocks south of the Bell Centre.

 

[BLONG7]

Was anything ever built on the spot Labatt Park would have occupied had the Expos not relocated

That's Peel St on the east, de la Montagne to the west, Saint-Jacques to the north, and Notre-Dame to the south, so about two blocks south of the Bell Centre.

This would be a great spot...is it even possible? What is currently there? Offices etc?

 

[Woodman19]

Doesnt seem to leave much in the way of parking.

 

[le_sean]

Doesnt seem to leave much in the way of parking.

Welcome to Montreal.

Seriously though, Bell Centre does fine regardless of the same issue. They can just use those lots for baseball games.

It would also be easy to park far and take the metro.

 

[tony d]

Thinking and hoping this is a matter of when not if, I still wear an Expos shirt and hat with pride.

 

[Spectaculard]

This would be a great spot...is it even possible? What is currently there? Offices etc?

Unfortunately they built ugly box condos on that site about 10 years ago.

 

[StatesideSensFan]

MLB will want shovels in the ground before they even consider awarding a franchise to the group. Bronfman MK I/MLB already got screwed once by a stadium in Montreal not being ready so I doubt he/they would want to go through this again

 

[Bjorn Le]

MLB will want shovels in the ground before they even consider awarding a franchise to the group. Bronfman MK I/MLB already got screwed once by a stadium in Montreal not being ready so I doubt he/they would want to go through this again

We already know this isn't true lol.