Montreal Canadiens are the most successful Canadian franchise in the last 20 years

[FriendlyGhost92]

I'm not a Montreal fan, but I agree that it's annoying that you keep repeating an irrelevant and misleading claim.

Yeah, still struggling to see how, "They wouldn't make it under normal circumstances" is misleading. It acknowledges that circumstances weren't normal. And stats acknowledge that it's accurate.

But sure. They were a great team when they were 18th overall in points between two years of being bottom 10.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Yeah, still struggling to see how, "They wouldn't make it under normal circumstances" is misleading. It acknowledges that circumstances weren't normal. And stats acknowledge that it's accurate.

But sure. They were a great team when they were 18th overall in points between two years of being bottom 10.

Here you go:

I'm not a Canadiens fan; however, this isn't a great argument.

Teams in 2021 played an intra-divisional schedule. You can't really compare between divisions (and so "18th in the league" doesn't mean much).

So it's not really "the truth" regardless of whether you want to offer the "HABS FANS HATE THIS ONE WEIRD TRICK" crap. Can you make the argument? I guess. But there are valid counterpoints (you could argue that because the "worst" team in the North had the most points among worst teams that no North team could beat up on the worst team to accumulate points).

 

[Gains]

If you want to use the argument that the Habs were 18th in the league, why not bring up the fact that they beat the teams ranked 1st, 5th and 14th in point-percentage to get to the finals? You never see the 8th seed argument brought up to discredit teams like the 2012 LA Kings... they are judged based on what they did in the post-season.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Here you go:

I mean you can keep trying to argue they would've been a playoff team under normal circumstances, but the reality is they sucked in 19-20, sucked in 21-22, and were mediocre in 20-21 when the rules changed and they made it in despite having sucky, non-playoff stats in the normal conference alignment.

Not a big stretch of the imagination.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I mean you can keep trying to argue they would've been a playoff team under normal circumstances, but the reality is they sucked in 19-20, sucked in 21-22, and were mediocre in 20-21 when the rules changed and they made it in despite having sucky, non-playoff stats in the normal conference alignment.

Not a big stretch of the imagination.

And yet, you somehow manage.

I mean, at least you've backpedaled from "the statistics acknowledge this" to "you can easily imagine it".

 

[Essenege]

Salary cap and revenue sharing are horrible for Canadian teams. It’s not normal that the fans of Toronto or Montreal who generates way more revenue for their team and the league, are then not able to outbid the f***ing Florida panthers for players (and they NEED to because of taxes and climate)

At least if you’re a fan of Real Madrid (or Yankees or Red Sox for that matters) and you pay the big ticket prices, you know it’s going towards improving your team.

US supposed to be free market champions somehow has the most anti free market leagues in the world.

 

[CanadienShark]

I don't get it? I've literally been saying that's the only reason they made it for pages now.

Reality is, in a normal year that Habs team doesn't make the playoffs. Not that difficult of a concept to grasp.

It's impossible to compare that year to a normal year. You still don't get it.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Salary cap and revenue sharing are horrible for Canadian teams. It’s not normal that the fans of Toronto or Montreal who generates way more revenue for their team and the league, are then not able to outbid the f***ing Florida panthers for players (and they NEED to because of taxes and climate)

At least if you’re a fan of Real Madrid (or Yankees or Red Sox for that matters) and you pay the big ticket prices, you know it’s going towards improving your team.

US supposed to be free market champions somehow has the most anti free market leagues in the world.

The league is trying to grow the sport. Giving smaller market teams the chance to compete with larger market teams has helped to achieve that. Teams like the leafs still have the ability to create advantage by outbidding other teams for the best coaches, managers, scouts, trainers, facilities etc.

It's not like the Canadian franchises were winning tons of cups in the last 10-15 years of the pre-cap era.

It sounds like you want the NHL to become the MLB, which is terrible for the long term health of the game.

 

[Essenege]

The league is trying to grow the sport. Giving smaller market teams the chance to compete with larger market teams has helped to achieve that. Teams like the leafs still have the ability to create advantage by outbidding other teams for the best coaches, managers, scouts, trainers, facilities etc.

It's not like the Canadian franchises were winning tons of cups in the last 10-15 years of the pre-cap era.

It sounds like you want the NHL to become the MLB, which is terrible for the long term health of the game.

I think we could have something in between. The current system isn’t a level playing field at all.

At the very least let the team compensate for local tax level. If a player sign in Toronto 11M, but the tax level is >10% of league average, 1M of the salary doesn’t count towards the cap. Opposite effect for Florida or Dallas.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I think we could have something in between. The current system isn’t a level playing field at all.

At the very least let the team compensate for local tax level. If a player sign in Toronto 11M, but the tax level is >10% of league average, 1M of the salary doesn’t count towards the cap. Opposite effect for Florida or Dallas.

That tax issue doesn't seem to have impacted teams in high tax states in the US, which have comparable effective tax rates.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

It's impossible to compare that year to a normal year. You still don't get it.

It's not a normal year. If it was a normal year Montreal wouldn't have been in the playoffs. You still don't get it.

And yet, you somehow manage.

I mean, at least you've backpedaled from "the statistics acknowledge this" to "you can easily imagine it".

Not sure how I have to backpedal from "The statistics acknowledge this" when....... The statistics acknowledge this.

 

[NyQuil]

Don't worry fans of Canadian teams. I'm sure those patriotic Canadian players will come home to play for their boyhood teams and end the drought soon. NOT!

They come home with the Cup to their boyhood towns.

 

[NyQuil]

It's not a normal year. If it was a normal year Montreal wouldn't have been in the playoffs. You still don't get it.

You can’t imagine a scenario where it’s a “normal year” and then apply the results from that abnormal year to that “normal year”.

Maybe Montreal does make the playoffs with a regular schedule. You have no way of knowing.

What we do know is that everyone agreed to the modified rules and Montreal won the Campbell Bowl and made the Finals.

It’s not like Montreal was playing with a different set of rules compared to everyone else.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Carey! Carey! Carey! Carey!

 

[CanadienShark]

It's not a normal year. If it was a normal year Montreal wouldn't have been in the playoffs. You still don't get it.



Not sure how I have to backpedal from "The statistics acknowledge this" when....... The statistics acknowledge this.

It's been explained to you over and over and over. You still don't understand and I'm not your mother or teacher, so quite frankly I don't care anymore. Best of luck in life.

 

[JKG33]

Smartest kid on the short bus.

Imagine if we had this thread for a random group of southern teams. Except there would actually be some cup champions in that group

 

[NyQuil]

Imagine if we had this thread for a random group of southern teams. Except there would actually be some cup champions in that group

Thankfully, you have the technology to make that happen.

The dream of a thread for a random group of southern teams can be a reality if you believe it.

 

[viper0220]

This is just f***ing sad.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This is just f***ing sad.

Carey! Carey! Carey! Carey!

 

[Kosseca]

That tax issue doesn't seem to have impacted teams in high tax states in the US, which have comparable effective tax rates.

Comparative advantages still goes to these high taxes states: NY with the city appeal, LA with city appeal/weather. etc.

Canadian markets main assets is the popularity of the sport. For the most part, this allows them to generate more revenues then some US markets that still attract top tier UFA or can retain top talent at more affordable contract. The cap era as virtually nullified Canadian market their main advantage: possibility to outbid or "buy" players. Why play in EDM or WIN when you can play in Flo for the same salary?

Now, i'm not saying that the cap is the only reason why Canadian market are struggling to establish consistent contending team, but if a place like Tampa/SJ/Vegas can attract player due to geographical location, Canadian market don't have the opportunity to maximize their relative advantages in the same way.

 

[rahad]

Comparative advantages still goes to these high taxes states: NY with the city appeal, LA with city appeal/weather. etc.

Canadian markets main assets is the popularity of the sport. For the most part, this allows them to generate more revenues then some US markets that still attract top tier UFA or can retain top talent at more affordable contract. The cap era as virtually nullified Canadian market their main advantage: possibility to outbid or "buy" players. Why play in EDM or WIN when you can play in Flo for the same salary?

Now, i'm not saying that the cap is the only reason why Canadian market are struggling to establish consistent contending team, but if a place like Tampa/SJ/Vegas can attract player due to geographical location, Canadian market don't have the opportunity to maximize their relative advantages in the same way.

''The popularity of the sport in Canada'' is probably the reason so many players are leaving for a small market. They just want to play hockey with out any media and fans pressure.

 

[Kosseca]

''The popularity of the sport in Canada'' is probably the reason so many players are leaving for a small market. They just want to play hockey with out any media and fans pressure.

I have a hard time buying this argument. That would make hockey player the most bipolar players in all pro sports: toughest player on the "playing field" and softest outside. You don't get that overall narrative percolating in other sport.

 

[rahad]

I have a hard time buying this argument. That would make hockey player the most bipolar players in all pro sports: toughest player on the "playing field" and softest outside. You don't get that overall narrative percolating in other sport.

Is very hard to compare Hockey with others majors sport in NA. Most of the majors league are in the USA. With hockey being the only major sport with multiple Canadian teams.

Playing in the south with less media and fans pressure is way better for multiple player. This is why having a good draft is so important for teams in Canada.

 

[Ligue]

''The popularity of the sport in Canada'' is probably the reason so many players are leaving for a small market. They just want to play hockey with out any media and fans pressure.

To be fair, if that mentality is actually shared by most players (especially stars) then hockey is doomed. It will never be much in terms of popularity. Could you imagine NBA and NFL superstars being like that ? It would be horrible for those leagues.

 

[NikolaTesla]

I mean you can keep trying to argue they would've been a playoff team under normal circumstances, but the reality is they sucked in 19-20, sucked in 21-22, and were mediocre in 20-21 when the rules changed and they made it in despite having sucky, non-playoff stats in the normal conference alignment.

Not a big stretch of the imagination.

Why are you so mad that they made the playoffs that year? The season ended prematurily so they used a system to give a chance to teams who wouldnt be in the playoffs at the time to make the playoffs, just like they could have if they played the whole season and went on a nice win streak. It was the same rules for every single teams in the league. Why are you so mad at this exactly?

And doesn't the fact that they made it to the SCF legitimized their spot in the playoffs anyway? Maybe they were 18th because good teams generally are slow starters? Or maybe they had a bunch of injuries during the year?