Montagu Allan divisional semi-finals: Cornwall Royals vs. Maine Mariners
- Thread starter VanIslander
- Start date
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Post your special teams, any of your extra skaters you might want to sub-in in this series, links to bio or any other information.
The format of the first post is standardized for easy, clean, equal comparison, both teams viewable without having to scroll down.
The second seed versus third seed.
Have a good series!
The format of the first post is standardized for easy, clean, equal comparison, both teams viewable without having to scroll down.
The second seed versus third seed.
Have a good series!
tony d
Registered User
Maine Mariners
Thomas Vanek - Syl Apps Jr. -Adam Deadmarsh
Bohuslav Stastny-Nicklas Backstrom - Art Farrell
Murray Craven - Pete Stemkowski-Pat Flatley
Curt Fraser- Wayne Merrick- Joe Lamb
Brad Maxwell-Jay Bouwmeester
Lasse Bjorn-Sylvain Cote
Fredrik Olausson - Garth Butcher
Nikolai Khabibulin
Sean Burke
Extras:
C Andy Blair
D Jocelyn Guevremont
RW Mud Bruneteau
D Bob Rouse
Coach: Rudy Pilous
Captain: Lasse Bjorn
Alternates: Garth Butcher, Syl Apps Jr.
Special Teams:
PP 1:
Vanek-Apps-Deadmarsh
Olausson-Maxwell
PP 2:
Statsny-Backstrom-Farrell
Bouwmeester-Cote
PK 1:
Craven-Stemkowski
Butcher-Bjorn
PK 2:
Flatley-Merrick
Cote-Bouwmeester
Thomas Vanek - Syl Apps Jr. -Adam Deadmarsh
Bohuslav Stastny-Nicklas Backstrom - Art Farrell
Murray Craven - Pete Stemkowski-Pat Flatley
Curt Fraser- Wayne Merrick- Joe Lamb
Brad Maxwell-Jay Bouwmeester
Lasse Bjorn-Sylvain Cote
Fredrik Olausson - Garth Butcher
Nikolai Khabibulin
Sean Burke
Extras:
C Andy Blair
D Jocelyn Guevremont
RW Mud Bruneteau
D Bob Rouse
Coach: Rudy Pilous
Captain: Lasse Bjorn
Alternates: Garth Butcher, Syl Apps Jr.
Special Teams:
PP 1:
Vanek-Apps-Deadmarsh
Olausson-Maxwell
PP 2:
Statsny-Backstrom-Farrell
Bouwmeester-Cote
PK 1:
Craven-Stemkowski
Butcher-Bjorn
PK 2:
Flatley-Merrick
Cote-Bouwmeester
Not sure if we are allowed to comment or not but Cornwall ahs the better group of forwards and Maine the better back (goalies too) end IMO.
You can make any comments you want about the players, teams, series, etc.
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tony d
Registered User
Let me start the debate here, hopefully my opponents will offer a rebuttal.
Line 1:
Mickoski-Kopitar-Brown vs. Vanek-Apps-Deadmarsh
I think our 1st lines where similarly built with the goal scoring left winger, the playmaking centre and the glue guy at right wing. The first battle is Mickoski vs. Deadmarsh. Mickoski offers a good all around game while Deadmarsh is there mainly for the grit. Mickoski's not afraid to get his nose dirty either so should be a good battle. Kopitar vs. Apps should be a good centre battle as well. I really like Kopitar and think he's only going to get better but at this point of his career I don't think he has achieved as much as Apps (Apps has more top 10 finishes in assists and points than does Kopitar), still it should be a great centre battle. Vanek vs. Brown should be a nice battle. All due respect to you guys but I don't see what Brown brings to a 1st line in the MLD just yet, I think he's better suited to a 2nd or 3rd line at this point of his career. Vanek is a good goal scorer (2 40 goal seasons already at this point of his career) and I expect Deadmarsh to pick up the slack for Vanek vs. Brown. Should be a great 1st line battle here.
Advtanage: Maine
Line 2:
Herb Cain-Mike Ribiero-Grant Warwick vs. Bohuslav Statsny-Nicklas Backstrom-Art Farrell
First off let me say how much I like your 2nd line, it might be one of the best constructed 2nd lines I've seen since I started drafting in these 3 yrs. ago. Both 2nd lines are built similarly with the goal scorer (Cain and Farrell), the playmaker (Ribiero and Backstrom) and the glue guy (Warwick and Statsny), the first battle features the goal scorers Cain and Farrell. Cain was an exemplary goal scorer, having 4 top 10 finishes in goals and actually leading the league in points during 1 season, that's great to get at this point of the draft. Art Farrell is someone I picked that I later regretted but he is still a decent player who should chip in on both sides of the ice. Nicklas Backstrom vs. Mike Ribero is a battle between 2 good playmakers. Both guys are exemplary playmakers and I think both would be believable as lower end ATD guys. Both guys have numerous top 10 assist finishes to their credit but Backstrom has the advantage of a 100 point season something that Ribiero does not have. Going to be interesting to see how both guys do on their MLD clubs but our teams are better for having both of these guys. The final battle here involves Stastny vs. Warwick. Both guys have reputations for being solid 2 way guys, Statsny's more of a playmaker and Warwick more of a goal scorer but both guys bring a great dimension to their team.
Advantage: Cornwall
3rd line:
Vincent Lukac-Jozef Golonka-Ulf Dahlen vs. Murray Craven-Pete Stemkowski-Pat Flatley
Comments: Your 3rd line appears to be more of an offensive 3rd line than mine but it's still a good one. Lukac vs. Flatley is the first battle. Lukac is more of a goal scorer but later in his career he morphed into more of a 2 way guy. He'll need that going vs. Pat Flatley. Flatley was a guy who gave it all on the ice. Let's see if Lukac's new found defensive responsibilities will find their way in the battle vs. Pat Flatley. Jozef Golonka vs. Pete Stemkowski is more of a traditional 3rd line centre battle. Golonka always played the game super tough but could score goals at will it seemed. Stemkowski was more of a quiet guy but he was good at winning faceoffs and could chip in offensively when needed. The final 3rd line battle pits Murray Craven and Ulf Dahlen. 2 guys who I liked growing up. Both guys are excellent 2 way players, I'd have to give a slight edge to Dahlen offensively but this is a 3rd line so Craven's defensive game should make this battle interesting.
Advantage: Maine as it's a traditional 3rd line.
4th line:
Dutch Hillier-Todd Marchant-Alexandre Burrows vs. Curt Fraser-Wayne Merrick-Joe Lamb
The 4th line battle should be a battle between 6 guys that won't give an inch in helping their teams win. Hiller and Lamb add an offensive game in addition to being extremely tough to play against. Todd Marchant and Wayne Merrick are both solid defensive centres who are going to make life tough for their opponents. Burrows and Fraser are both great agitators and should bring that to both teams. It might be a bit early for Burrows to go in a draft but still I expect him to play with an edge at all times.
Advtantage: Slightly to Maine
I'll be back tomorrow to debate the defenses, looking forward to a rebuttal from dreakmur or papershoes.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Not being around very much, I haven't really had the chance to make sure people know that our 1st line will be taking all the significant checking assignments. That is why the line was built the way it was.
I agree that Brown is not a 1st line MLDer at this point in his career - he just doesn't bring the right level of offensive skill. What he does do is forecheck, intimidate, and create energy for my team. He is definitely a weak point on this line, but I don't think he's way out of place in a checking role.
In Kopitar, we feel we have the best center in the draft. His offensive abilities are among the very best, and his all-around game is unmatched in my opinion. We feel that this edge down the middle will give us a good edge in all match-up situations.
If you are just going to compare player to player, Maine probably does have the advantage. If you do that, however, you have to do the same thing for the 3rd lines, and that is a match-up that Cornwall would crush Maine.
Perhaps it might be better to compare lines in their roles.
Mickoski-Kopitar-Brown is our primary checking line.
Cain-Ribeiro-Warwick is our primary scoring line.
I think both Ribeiro and Backstrom are getting under-rated here. Say what you want about Mike Ribeiro, but his offensive games is among the top handful in this draft. Backstrom's numbers are almost as impressive, and he doesn't have nearly the same one-dimensional game. The problem is that we can't really distinguish between his actual skill level and what he benefited from playing with Ovechkin. Both are excellent 2nd line centers IMO.
The wingers here are not close. Herb Cain and Grant Warwick are, in my opinion, elite wingers in this draft. Both would be top-end 1st liners.
As I said above, the talent on these two lines does not even compare. If you're just comparing player to player, I don't see how you can come away with anything but a blow-out win for Cornwall. If you're going to take the role of the line into account, you should just compare this to our 1st line instead.
We built this unit as our secondary scoring line, since we already had a very strong checking line.
My suggested line comparisons:
Herb Cain-Mike Ribeiro-Grant Warwick vs. Tomas Vanek-Syl Apps-Adam Deadmarsh
Vincent Lukac-Jozef Golonka-Ulf Dahlen vs. Bohuslav Stastny-Nicklas Backstrom-Art Farrell
Nick Mickoski-Anze Kopitar-Dustin Brown vs. Murray Craven-Pete Stemkowski-Pat Flatmey
Of course, maybe I'm only suggesting that because I see that as 3 clear wins for Cornwall.
When we picked Hiller, we had him pegged as a pure defensive specialist, so it's a nice surprise to see him have a respectable offensive game.
Am I wrong is saying Todd Marchant has the best Selke voting record in the MLD? That doesn't make him the best defensive forward, but it sure is a case for an argument. I think he's an elite 4th liner and PKer.
Alex Burrows brings more than just an edge - he is a very competent scorer at this level, especially at even strength and on the PK. I realize he does get the benefit of playing with the Sedins, but that doesn't account all of his scoring. For starters, he doesn't play much PP time, which limits his best chance to leach off them. Also, he outscores them both at even strength - leading the team in even strength goals 5 years in a row. He has lead that team in overall goals twice, and also play-off goals twice. Does some of that success come from playing with excellent linemates? Absolutely! You cannot, however, ignore his offensive game, as he does have good offensive skills, and he's a guy who doesn't need PP time to score either.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Why is Dustin Brown considered a weak 1st liner, but Adam Deadmarsh is not? I see almost identical players who put up very similar careers. They were both good offensively and defensively, and they both played very aggressive physical games. Both have careers that essentially span 8 seasons.
Unless my calculations are off, here are their best 6 offensive seasons:
Deadmarsh - 69(2002), 55(1997), 48(2000), 47(1998), 46(1999), 40(1996)
Brown - 58(2011), 56(2008), 56(2012), 51(2010), 51(2013), 48(2009)
That's an advantage of 320 to 305 in Brown's favour.
Deadmarsh does have more of a play-off resume, though he never did match Brown's Cup-winning post season. Deadmarsh probably has the edge in play-offs, which closes Brown's edge in the regular season.
Unless my calculations are off, here are their best 6 offensive seasons:
Deadmarsh - 69(2002), 55(1997), 48(2000), 47(1998), 46(1999), 40(1996)
Brown - 58(2011), 56(2008), 56(2012), 51(2010), 51(2013), 48(2009)
That's an advantage of 320 to 305 in Brown's favour.
Deadmarsh does have more of a play-off resume, though he never did match Brown's Cup-winning post season. Deadmarsh probably has the edge in play-offs, which closes Brown's edge in the regular season.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Deadmarsh was also usually centered by Joe Sakic. Kopitar is a great player, but he's no Sakic.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
tony d
Registered User
Many thanks, dreakmur, for the rebuttal. As to the Deadmarsh vs. Brown debate, being this is a playoff heavy thing we're doing here I think Deadmarsh should perform well here.
Let's get to comparing the defenses.
Defense Pairing 1: Zhitnik-Van Boxmeer vs. Maxwell-Bouwmeester:
Zhitnik vs. Bouwmeester is the first defensive battle. Both guys will be the #1 all around defensemen on their team. Both will munch big minutes for their teams, I think Bouwmeester's skating will work to his advantage here but Zhitnik is no slouch either. Van Boxmeer and Maxwell are the offensive defensemen on their teams. I had Van Boxmeer last year and he had a short but decent peak similar to Maxwell. Our 1st defensive pairings are eerily similar.
Advantage: Slight one to Maine due to Bouwmeester's skating
Defense Pairing 2:
Tomas Kaberle-Scott Hannan vs. Lasse Bjorn/Sylvain Cote
Comments: The 1st battle on the 2nd pairing pits Kaberle vs. Cote. Kaberle is a good offensive defenseman for this level and could be the best 1 in your lineup. Cote was more of a defensive guy but he could play some offensive hockey. What was Kaberle's defensive game like? If it wasn't up to par he could lost the defensive battle vs. Cote. Bjorn vs. Hannan is the other battle on these pairings. Hannan's quite a good defensive defenseman and may be the perfect partner for Kaberle here. Bjorn may have skating issues but he was pretty good at other areas of the game. My guys appear to be more of a defensive pairing while your guys are more of a classic pairing.
Advantage: Slight one to Cornwall because of the variance in the games of both guys
Defense Pairing 3:
Billy Coutu-Mario Marois vs. Fredrik Olausson-Garth Butcher
These 2 pairings aren't your traditional shutdown pairings but rather the classic offense defense pairing. The first battle of Coutu vs. Butcher is a battle of 2 mean defensemen who won't give an inch in protecting their team. I'd love to see a real life battle between those 2. Mario Marois vs. Fredrik Olausson should be a good battle as well. Marois was on my radar even when I picked Bouwmeester, he's a bargain for a 3rd pairing, the same as Olausson who will see time on my power play. This should be a good battle between 2 good pairings.
Advtanage: Maine
I'll debate the goalies, coaching, special teams tomorrow, looking forward to another rebuttal from dreakmur.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Deadmarsh was a decent play-off performer, but it's not like he was great.
I actually laughed out loud when I read "due to Bouwmeester's skating". Sorry, but it's ridiculous to say one pair is better because it has a faster guy on it.
Having said that, however, your pair is definitely better, and it is because of Bouwmeester. The guy is an absolute horse. He is a top-10 defenseman in the NHL right now, and has been for a long time. For whatever reason, he has never received the voting consideration he should. I do think Zhitnik was similarly under-rated by the voters, but he was never quite at Jbo's level. Both are big-time minute-munchers
Bouwmeester should be an ATD pick - and a starter rather than a spare. He is clearly better than contemporary guys like Willie Mitchell, Chris Phillips, and Bryan McCabe. I think he's better than Dion Phaneuf and Shea Weber too, but that's probably just me. In my opinion, he is the best defenseman in this draft, and I was pissed when you picked him before we could!
Van Boxmeer was definitely a puck-mover first, but it does appear that he could play very good defense at times. It seems like he was inconsistent in that regard, but wasn't consistently weak like one of my other defensemen (Kaberle). Here are the scouting reports from his peak:
1978-Developed into a steady two-way defenseman during first season with Rockies… Makes it look easy on ice… Right-hand shooting defenseman who often plays power play point… Mobile defenseman and smooth passer.
1979-Intelligent and talented… Has booming shot, which makes him valuable on power play… Smooth skater… Can handle puck… Better in opponent’s end than he is in own end.
1980-Can handle puck… Not so good without it… Useful on power play…
1981-John Van Boxmeer was a steadying influence behind the blue line.
1982-Smooth skater and puck-handing who has become more aggressive…
1983-The one Sabre on defense who knows how to handle the puck is John Van Boxmeer, coming off one of his finest seasons. Van Boxmeer had 54 assists, possessing a booming shot and skates well.
….
Quick, hard-shooting blueliner involved in one of team’s most controversial trades… Stronger than he looks… Wicked shot makes him especially dangerous from the point… Very popular with knowledgable Buffalo fans.
1984-Could be one of the most underrated defensemen in NHL… Smooth skater who doesn’t play an overly physical game but knows how to cover men in his zone and take them out of play… Can play a defensive-defenseman’s role or operate as a rushing, scoring threat…
Kaberle is not just "a good offensive guy for this level", he is the best one in this draft. The 2nd best guy is not even close either. Is he the best overall defenseman? Probably not, but his offensive game is unmatched at the MLD level. Kaberle's best 6 season percentages add up to 498. Mark Streit and Dave Babych were closest at 480 and 475, but they really fell off after 5 or 6 good seasons, while Kaberle has almost a dozen very strong seasons.
Kaberle was consistently mediocre defensively. He did play decent positional hockey, but his 1 on 1 battles were very weak. He was usually in the right place, but sometimes he may as well not have been!
Why is it an advantage for Maine?
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tony d
Registered User
Many thanks to dreakmur once again for a great and well thought out debate, always nice to get those, The advantages for Bouwmeester include his very well rounded game which of course includes his great skating. As to the 3rd pairing being better it's because Olausson's offennsive game trumps Marois' but Marois is a good pick as well.
Now let's move onto the goalie debate:
Seth Martin-Cam Ward vs. Nikolai Khabibulin-Sean Burke
Seth Martin is becoming a personal favourite of a lot of you guys around here, I need to read more on him before forming an opinion on him but he must be good if he's on the 2nd all star team here. Cam Ward is a good 1 as well but his career has suffered because of playing in Carolina. For my team we have Khabibulin and Burke, 2 very solid goalies and goalies who like Ward suffered because of playing for poor teams. Like other aspects of this series this is a close battle but I have to wonder if Ward will be able to step in as well for Martin that Burke probably would for Khabibulin.
Advtanage: Maine
Coaching: Dave King vs. Rudy Pilous: Dave King was a fine coach but I think it would have been good if you had drafted an assistant coach to go along with him. He coached 5 1/2 NHL seasons and didn't once get a team past the 1st round of the playoffs, internationally though he was a good coach but he's probably better suited to being an assistant in this. Rudy Pilous, on the other hand, was a fine coach and 1 that always got the most out of his players. Overall it should be a good coaching battle as both guys have similar coaching lengths in the NHL but the Stanley Cup makes Pilous look better.
Advantage: Maine
Special Teams:
Good move in putting all your big horses onto your power play units. As I've said numerous times Cain-Ribiero-Warwick is one of the best 2nd lines in this thing and they're your 1st power play unit, hopefully my big PK unit of Craven-Stemkowski-Bjorn-Butcher can stop them, it'll be tough but it can be done. Your 2nd PP unit is good as well featuring Kopitar-Golonka-Lukac, all those guys can put up the offensive numbers so once again it'll be up to my guys on the 2nd PK unit of Flatley-Merrick-cote and Bouwmeester to stop the 2nd unit. Switching to my 1st PP unit vs. your 1st PK unit, I think Vanek and Apps is as good a playmaker-goal scorer combination in this draft. You add the power play abilities of Olausson and Maxwell on the back end and you'll get solid results. I think having guys like Todd Marchant and Scott Hannan on your 1st PK is a wise move and I think a battle between those 2 and a guy like Adam Deadmarsh would be fun to see. The 2nd unit battle should be good as well. You didn't fill out your final 2nd PK unit, so I'm guessing Marois and Zhitnik will be your final 2 PK guys which would be a good move. My team really doesn't have anyone on the 2nd PP unit who can combat Burrows effectively so that could work to your advantage. Add in the offense that Kopitar can bring and it could make for a few short handed opportunities for you guys but we'll see what happens.
Advantage: Cornwall because of putting a guy like Burrows on the 2nd PK unit and a great power play.
Final thoughts: This should be a really close series. Both teams are strong in certain areas and a little weak in others, this series can go either way so I say good luck to you, thanks for the hearty debate and we will see what happens later this week.
Now let's move onto the goalie debate:
Seth Martin-Cam Ward vs. Nikolai Khabibulin-Sean Burke
Seth Martin is becoming a personal favourite of a lot of you guys around here, I need to read more on him before forming an opinion on him but he must be good if he's on the 2nd all star team here. Cam Ward is a good 1 as well but his career has suffered because of playing in Carolina. For my team we have Khabibulin and Burke, 2 very solid goalies and goalies who like Ward suffered because of playing for poor teams. Like other aspects of this series this is a close battle but I have to wonder if Ward will be able to step in as well for Martin that Burke probably would for Khabibulin.
Advtanage: Maine
Coaching: Dave King vs. Rudy Pilous: Dave King was a fine coach but I think it would have been good if you had drafted an assistant coach to go along with him. He coached 5 1/2 NHL seasons and didn't once get a team past the 1st round of the playoffs, internationally though he was a good coach but he's probably better suited to being an assistant in this. Rudy Pilous, on the other hand, was a fine coach and 1 that always got the most out of his players. Overall it should be a good coaching battle as both guys have similar coaching lengths in the NHL but the Stanley Cup makes Pilous look better.
Advantage: Maine
Special Teams:
Good move in putting all your big horses onto your power play units. As I've said numerous times Cain-Ribiero-Warwick is one of the best 2nd lines in this thing and they're your 1st power play unit, hopefully my big PK unit of Craven-Stemkowski-Bjorn-Butcher can stop them, it'll be tough but it can be done. Your 2nd PP unit is good as well featuring Kopitar-Golonka-Lukac, all those guys can put up the offensive numbers so once again it'll be up to my guys on the 2nd PK unit of Flatley-Merrick-cote and Bouwmeester to stop the 2nd unit. Switching to my 1st PP unit vs. your 1st PK unit, I think Vanek and Apps is as good a playmaker-goal scorer combination in this draft. You add the power play abilities of Olausson and Maxwell on the back end and you'll get solid results. I think having guys like Todd Marchant and Scott Hannan on your 1st PK is a wise move and I think a battle between those 2 and a guy like Adam Deadmarsh would be fun to see. The 2nd unit battle should be good as well. You didn't fill out your final 2nd PK unit, so I'm guessing Marois and Zhitnik will be your final 2 PK guys which would be a good move. My team really doesn't have anyone on the 2nd PP unit who can combat Burrows effectively so that could work to your advantage. Add in the offense that Kopitar can bring and it could make for a few short handed opportunities for you guys but we'll see what happens.
Advantage: Cornwall because of putting a guy like Burrows on the 2nd PK unit and a great power play.
Final thoughts: This should be a really close series. Both teams are strong in certain areas and a little weak in others, this series can go either way so I say good luck to you, thanks for the hearty debate and we will see what happens later this week.
Dreakmur
Registered User
Olausson is better than Marois offensively, but Marois is better defensively and physically.
I'll have to disagree here. Seth Martin is a hard guy to get an exact read on, but I think I can safely say he is definitely better than Khabibulin.
Hard to disagree there. We waited a long time to pick a coach, and ended up with a weak one.
I think the point men we can trot out on the PP is an advantage as well.
I got all my moving crap done just in time for this! Thanks for a clean debate, and good luck!
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I don't think there's any contest there. Olausson was a great PP guy. But Marois was an all-around player who avered 21.6 minutes a game for 955 games, playing offensive and defensive minutes for average teams, and was particularly good on the PK. Olausson averaged a minute less, which isn't a hell of a lot, but he also played for teams 7% worse.
It's really hard to compare them as overall players, but 99% of the time I'll take the guy who played more for better teams. If we're talking about "3rd pairings", strictly speaking, we're speaking of them as even strength players and Marois is simply better equipped to handle all situations.
If we're comparing power play units and these two come up for comparison, then it's no contest. Olausson all the way.
But about 10% of the game is spent on the PP.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Cornwall Defeats Maine in 5 games
"The Bulin wall wasn't enough to keep the royals offense at bay. Royals shot often, hard and accurate. Vanek ... still managed to steal one game."
Stars:
1. Anze Kopitar
2. Tomas Vanek
3. Seth Martin
Jay Bouwmeester played well in a losing cause.
"The Bulin wall wasn't enough to keep the royals offense at bay. Royals shot often, hard and accurate. Vanek ... still managed to steal one game."
Stars:
1. Anze Kopitar
2. Tomas Vanek
3. Seth Martin
Jay Bouwmeester played well in a losing cause.
tony d
Registered User
Congrats to dreakmur on a good and well-debated series. Was pleased with my team, I'll be back for the AAA draft. May need a co-gm as my trip is looking to be from October 15-24 but we'll see what happens.
