MLD2011 Finals - Eden Hall Warriors vs Regina Capitals

[VanIslander]

Moderator vs. Moderator.

Evans & Buswell vs. Armstrong & Kampman.

McGimsie vs. Gingras.

Stunning! Truly stunning!

Good luck everyone!
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[TheDevilMadeMe]

What is he at, per game?

15th, w/o guys that played less than 100 games. Also, don't ignore the first half of his career, which was *****. Campbell is as good as he is bad in an all time sense.

Campbell played 459 regular season games after the lockout. That's more games than Gary Sargent (402) played in his career and almost as many as Ehrhoff (500) played in his career.

I don't see how the 169 games Campbell played before the lockout, when he was still learning the ropes, take away from what he did after the lockout.

 

[overpass]

Also, don't ignore the first half of his career, which was *****. Campbell is as good as he is bad in an all time sense.

There wasn't a lot of demand for 5'10" skating defencemen when Campbell was breaking into the league. He was the best player on Ottawa's Memorial Cup team but was drafted later than teammates Nick Boynton, Mark Bell, and Matt Zultek. NHL teams were putting a huge premium on size.

 

[Dreakmur]

Because Campbell is one of the most overrated pieces of **** in the entire league.

Why does that matter? Brad Richards is over-rated, but he went in the ATD... and that's fair.

You claim Campbell lost PP time to Keith and Seabrook in Chicago. Why is that? According to your bio, they were proud to get an elite PP defenseman, yet he lost time on the first unit to ****ing Seabrook of all people. Why is that?

I don't know that this was even the case, but if it was..... Campbell lost PP time to the Norris trophy winner - there's no shame in that.

Once he lost to Keith, they needed a different type of player on the other side. Keith and Campbell are both puck-carriers, but neither one has a great shot. Seabrook has a bomb, so he makes more sense.

I noticed that you completely ignored the PK'ing deficiency of Campbell. Why is that?

Even players in the ATD have weaknesses......

You also don't seem to be in too much of a hurry to challenge Campbell being soft, or weak defensively. Why is that?

Again, most players have weaknesses. I'm sure he's happy to have a very good offensive defenseman.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's a reason he put Campbell with Buswell, who should be able cover for his deficiencies.

Also, why am I slogging on Campbell? Because he did NOTHING.. NOTHING.. could barely put up 10 points in a season before 2006. Maybe once I see comparisons to the other defensemen in this series, I'll change my mind, but I think he's AAA level. You can't even call him a specialist at what he supposedly specializes at.

So he wasn't good before the lock-out. Take a look at what he accomplished after the lock-out. That's why he was picked.

 

[Dreakmur]

Dreakmur: No, he was not a "must have been" anything in 2007.

He was the #1 defenseman on the best team in the league.

He was what he was. A solid, but unspectacular defenseman playing for the best team in the league at the time.

"solid, but unspectacular" guys don't put up 50 points. Campbell was a big part of that team's offense, and a big reason they led the league.

Yet with all those big PP minutes for a team that was finally scoring, he could only put up 4 more points in 4 more minutes played per game.

What do you think this actually means?

You do realize scoring was WAY UP in 2006, especially on the PP. With the new rules to increase speed and eliminate obstruction, league scoring went through the roof.

The next season, scoring leveled off as players, coaches, and referees got used to the rules.

If you look at his scoring relative to other defenseman, 2007 was much better than 2006, despite being only a 4 point difference.

I can concede that he might have been decent enough in his own zone that year, but that doesn't make up for half a career of incompetence.

This "half a career of incompetence" stuff is rediculous. You know what it really adds up to? A shorter peak. That's all. He wasn't very good before the lock-out, partially due to the rules that worked against smaller players.

Besides, they probably looked at his shiny plus minus, and were like "ohhh, shiny!".

Or they looked at his points..... or the fact that he was the best defenseman on the best team.

I watched that team play. They did anything but play defense.

Well, since you watched them play, you should know exactly how important Campbell was to their offense. He was a HUGE reason that they were able to be so effective offensively.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just to clarify on the 2007-08 President's Trophy winning Sabres that allegedly "did anything but play defense."

They allowed 242 goals against, which is exactly at the level of league average. By contrast, they did score 308 goals, first in the league with 20 goals more than second place Ottawa.

 

[vecens24]

Wow TDMM, I would hope they didn't allow 242 goals per game

 

[BraveCanadian]

Campbell played 459 regular season games after the lockout. That's more games than Gary Sargent (402) played in his career and almost as many as Ehrhoff (500) played in his career.

Annnnd we're done here.

 

[jarek]

I've made my case about Campbell, nothing said here tells me he's anything more than AAA material. Carry on.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I've made my case about Campbell, nothing said here tells me he's anything more than AAA material. Carry on.

Please name some defensemen in this series who are better than "AAA material" and tell us why.

Campbell is a hell of a let better than Barry Gibbs, that's for sure.

 

[jarek]

Please name some defensemen in this series who are better than "AAA material" and tell us why.

Campbell is a hell of a let better than Barry Gibbs, that's for sure.

I'm not a voter, so I don't care.

 

[vecens24]

I'm not a voter, so I don't care.

Good to see you start your argument then when it comes down to it you either quit or realize you're wrong. Carry on everyone.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Defensemen

I don't want to beat on seventies' team while he's not around, but since jarek brought up Brian Campbell, it leads naturally into a discussion of the defensemen.

Anyway, I think these are the best two defensive corps in the draft, and a big reason these two teams got this far.

First pairing = slight advantage Regina

Jack Evans = Bob Armstrong

Seventieslord posted earlier that he didn't understand why Evans was a MLD All-Star and Armstrong wasn't, when they are basically the same defenseman. And he's right - they were very similar players. Armstrong seemed to fight more often, while Evans used his massive physical strength in a more controlled manner, but they seem to have gotten similar results.

Mike O'Connell < Gordie Roberts (by a little)

offense: O'Connell > Roberts
defense: O'Connell < Roberts
overall peak: O'Connell = Roberts
longevity: O'Connell < Roberts

Roberts gets a slight advantage because he rebranded himself a depth defensive defenseman and won two Cups late in his career in Pittsburgh as a depth player, giving him more career value.

Basically, the only thing that puts Roberts over O'Connell is longevity as a productive player, but that is something that matters to me.

Second pairing = moderate advantage Eden Hall

Walt Buswell = Jack Portland

They played in the same era and have very similar Norris records. Portland was a bigger hitter, and Buswell more controlled, but they seem to have gotten similar results.

Brian Campbell >>> Barry Gibbs (by a lot)

Campbell has been discussed to death in this thread. Barry Gibbs doesn't stack up:

• Norris record: Campbell (5th, 10th); Gibbs (none)
• All Star record: Campbell (4th, 9th, 16th); Gibbs (11th, 13th)
• All Star games: Campbell (2007, 2008, 2009); Gibbs (1973)
• Competition for above: Campbell (modern talent pool); Gibbs (70s NHL when many of the best players were in Europe or the WHA)
• 5 year peak offense: Campbell (9th among dmen, 92% of 2nd place Niedermayer, 93% of 3rd place Pronger)); Gibbs (15th among dmen, 51% of 2nd place Park, 55% of 3rd place Lapointe)
• Contribution to team success: Campbell (#1 on a President's Trophy winner, #3 on a Cup winner); Gibbs (#1 defenseman 9 times on 2 different expansion teams)
• Playoff totals: Campbell (38 points in 90 games); Gibbs (6 points in 36 games)
• Playoff highlight: Campbell (led the 2010 Cup winner in +/- from the second pairing); Gibbs (1 assist and 47 PIMs in 1971 as his team lost in the second round - the only time one of Gibbs teams made it past the first round in his career)

Basically, Gibbs' role in history is as the undisputed #1 of the expansion North Stars, followed by the expansion Flames, teams that won a single playoff round between them. Basically the best fish out of a rotten bunch.

What did Gibbs do with his massive ice time?:

• In 1973-74, more goals were scored against Gibbs' team when he was on the ice than any other defenseman in the NHL
• In 1978-79, Gibbs' was second in goals against to Rick Green, the number one defenseman on the Washington Capitals, one of the worst teams of all-time.
• This means Gibbs was an outlier away from the dubious distinction of twice leading the NHL in goals against his team while he was on the ice.
• Of course, Gibbs' massive goals-against numbers are products of being the #1 guy on awful teams. But so are his massive ice time numbers that are the main reason seventieslord drafted him.

Bottom pairing = slight advantage Regina

Christian Ehrhoff >> Gary Sargent (by a moderate amount)

• Norris record: Ehrhoff (8th, 9th); Sargent (8th)
• All Star record: Ehrhoff (7th, 11th); Sargent (12th)
• longevity: Ehrhoff (500 games); Sargent (406 games)
• playoffs: Ehrhoff (34 points in 73 games); Sargent (12 points in 20 games)

Ehrhoff beats Sargent in both peak and longevity.

Garth Butcher <<< Bingo Kampman (by a lot)

Butcher has everything you could want from a #6 - he's a perfect role player - a leader, a hard hitting stay at homer, an agitator, and a heavyweight fighter.

But Kampman provides everything Butcher does (minus the leadership) and has an All-Star record showing him to be a much better player compared to his peers. Butcher is a very good #6 I at this level I think, but Kampman is slumming it on a bottom pair.

Summary:

Eden Hall has a significant (though not huge) advantage on the second pair, where Brian Campbell is a much better player than Barry Gibbs. Is it enough to outweigh Regina's smaller advantages on the first and third pair?

 

[jarek]

Good to see you start your argument then when it comes down to it you either quit or realize you're wrong. Carry on everyone.

Was this post even necessary? I didn't realize I'm wrong. I know I'm right. I already made my case.. you guys can take it for whatever you think it's worth. I have nothing else to say on the matter.. and I don't know enough about the other defensemen in this series to really comment on them. If you want to think I quit, then go ahead. If I was a voter, I would have carried on.. but I have other things to do.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

nm....

 

[vecens24]

Was this post even necessary? I didn't realize I'm wrong. I know I'm right. I already made my case.. you guys can take it for whatever you think it's worth. I have nothing else to say on the matter.. and I don't know enough about the other defensemen in this series to really comment on them. If you want to think I quit, then go ahead. If I was a voter, I would have carried on.. but I have other things to do.

This post is every bit as necessary as you coming in, trashing a guy as AAA material, not looking to see who else is in the MLD to see that in fact Campbell is NOT AAA material, then walking away from the argument.

 

[jarek]

This post is every bit as necessary as you coming in, trashing a guy as AAA material, not looking to see who else is in the MLD to see that in fact Campbell is NOT AAA material, then walking away from the argument.

Campbell is AAA material.

 

[markrander87]

This post is every bit as necessary as you coming in, trashing a guy as AAA material, not looking to see who else is in the MLD to see that in fact Campbell is NOT AAA material, then walking away from the argument.

Welcome to the ATD/MLD(Not being sarcastic, agreeing with your post)

 

[Dreakmur]

Campbell is AAA material.

Which undrafted defensemen are better?

 

[jarek]

Which undrafted defensemen are better?

Don't know. I just know he is. Why do I know this? Because I've watched him play. I have my opinion. If you don't agree with it.. I really don't care.

 

[Dreakmur]

Don't know. I just know he is. Why do I know this? Because I've watched him play. I have my opinion. If you don't agree with it.. I really don't care.

You have an opinion of how good he was, but you can't accurately place him in an ATD setting without comparing him to the other players, which is what you forgot to do. You said yourself that you haven't done the reasearch... so why would you make such an outrageous claim?


Since Doughty was supposed to be the slam-dunk easy first pick of the AAA draft, you should compare Campbell to him. Doughty's career doesn't match Campbell's - not even close.

For what it's worth, I agree that Campbell is over-rated in the NHL today. Regardless, once you actually take the time to objectively compare him to the other defenseman in this series, he stacks up very well.

 

[jarek]

You have an opinion of how good he was, but you can't accurately place him in an ATD setting without comparing him to the other players, which is what you forgot to do. You said yourself that you haven't done the reasearch... so why would you make such an outrageous claim?


Since Doughty was supposed to be the slam-dunk easy first pick of the AAA draft, you should compare Campbell to him. Doughty's career doesn't match Campbell's - not even close.

For what it's worth, I agree that Campbell is over-rated in the NHL today. Regardless, once you actually take the time to objectively compare him to the other defenseman in this series, he stacks up very well.

Alright, fine. Maybe he does deserve to be here (as sick as that makes me), but he is certainly not a very good NHL defenseman in my books. Weak in everything except scoring, which he's been anything but consistent at in his career.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Regina has been riding to the finals with their defense , but I'm not sure they can make it happen this time.Edan Hall has a very solid group of defensemen (stronger than any previous Regina opponants ) but the key is they have a clear edge at forward in my humble opinion.I would need some serious convincing on seventieslord's part that his defense is better than Eden Hall or that his forward group is not that behind Edan Hall's group.

 

[markrander87]

Regina has been riding to the finals with their defense , but I'm not sure they can make it happen this time.Edan Hall has a very solid group of defensemen (stronger than any previous Regina opponants ) but the key is they have a clear edge at forward in my humble opinion.I would need some serious convincing on seventieslord's part that his defense is better than Eden Hall or that his forward group is not that behind Edan Hall's group.

I'm still wondering why Golonka who was drafted in the 8th round is consistently being voted a top star in these playoffs. Is it because he is there first line centre and has a "C" next to his name?

 

[jarek]

I'm still wondering why Golonka who was drafted in the 8th round is consistently being voted a top star in these playoffs. Is it because he is there first line centre and has a "C" next to his name?

Steals happen. Get over it.