MLD11 Mickey Ion Semifinal: Amherst Ramblers (2) vs. Mighty Moose of Manitoba (3)
- Thread starter seventieslord
- Start date
Rzeznik
Registered User
Wow, at first glance I must say, that this is going to be a dandy of a series. Our teams are so close in so many aspects, its hard to lean one way or the other. I think I might have the edge in top-6 forwards and defense, but these wouldn't be by much. You have the bottom-6 forward edge, and I like Ranford better than McLean in nets. I think I have the clear edge in coaching, but this is the only outright advantage I see. It is really up in the air though, and I can see this one going the distance. Good luck to you sir, and may the better team win 
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
Interestingly enough. Starsi is the reason Tikhonov got the job. Loses to Canada were acceptable, but back to back loses to Czechoslovakia meant changes had to be made. Tikhonov was said change.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
Oh, and I disagree about your defence being better. Both Buller and Kiessling achieved more than Baker. Buller was the top minor league d-man in the world before being given a shot, where he proved he was an NHL #1 d-man. And Kiessling was the 3rd best IIHF d-man of the 80s.
Kenny Jonsson is no better than Ohlund or Olausson.
Normand Rochefort is similar to Alex Smith, but Smith has better longevity.
Dave Maloney may be your best d-man honestly. But he's still less than my 1st pairing guys.
Ellett and Fogolin are about equal to Hedican. (Oh, and early, seventieslord, you asked if Hedican had ever been more than a #3. I define #1, #2, #3, etc... by ice time. And by that measure He was a #2 in 00/01, 01/02, 02/03, 03/04 and 07/08 and a number 1 in 05/06(Where he won the cup as a #1 d-man.) and 06/07)
And then our spare has the best offensive peak of any d-man in the MLD.
Kenny Jonsson is no better than Ohlund or Olausson.
Normand Rochefort is similar to Alex Smith, but Smith has better longevity.
Dave Maloney may be your best d-man honestly. But he's still less than my 1st pairing guys.
Ellett and Fogolin are about equal to Hedican. (Oh, and early, seventieslord, you asked if Hedican had ever been more than a #3. I define #1, #2, #3, etc... by ice time. And by that measure He was a #2 in 00/01, 01/02, 02/03, 03/04 and 07/08 and a number 1 in 05/06(Where he won the cup as a #1 d-man.) and 06/07)
And then our spare has the best offensive peak of any d-man in the MLD.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Agree on Buller.
How do we know where Kiessling would rate among all defensemen of the 1980s? What's your estimate?
I would place Ohlund above Jonsson but Jonsson above Olausson.
Smith is one of those underrated older players we still haven't properly put into perspective. I think he's possibly the 10th-12th best defenseman of the 1930s. Rochefort was a good player, but would he even be one of the top-25 of the 1980s?
I like Dave Maloney a lot. I like Buller better. Still need to figure out where Kiessling fits in.
Hmm. Impressive. I, too, think ice time is the fairest way to define where each defenseman placed in the depth chart.
Would you really call him equal to Ellett or Fogolin, though?
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
Hard to say, he's a clear step down from Kasatonov. But, is still probably the third best defenceman in Europe in the 80's. So, probably the a mid-level #1. I'm thinking Rob Ramage might be a fair compairable, but it's tough to say.
It's all about style. Fogolin is tougher and Ellett is better offensively. But neither have anywhere remotely near the mobility of Hedican. And, IMO, the ability to have a defenceman who can skate with fast forwards is an invaluable skill. Hedican is the only defensively responcible d-man in this series who can skate like a forward. In fact, he's probably quicker than any of Amhersts' top forwards.
Rzeznik
Registered User
Alright, here's where I stand on the defense situation.
Buller is the best defenceman in the series, that can be agreed upon, but there is nothing to say that Kiessling was better than Hobey Baker. Baker may be the best early amateur hockey player, where as Kiessling was a great European defenceman in the 80's. Probably two of the hardest eras to compare. Looking at all-star team voting though, Baker, along with Buller, both top the second-team defence, where as Kiessling is nowhere to be found. Underappreciated? Probably, but the votes of fellow GM's are a pretty good indicator IMO. Kiessling is clearly a step ahead of my #2 though, in Jonsson.
Jonsson, who won the best-defenceman award at the Turin Olympic Games, playing against the best players in the world, is the 4th best defenceman in the series, a bit ahead of Ohlund, a teammate of his at those games, and a clear step ahead of Olausson, who is also behind Dave Maloney, who has decent offensive numbers to go along with very solid defence and intangibles. After this, Rochefort and Smith are up for debate, but as seveties said, Smith is one of those guys still trying to find his correct place in the MLD, which is a very good second-pairing defenceman, IMO. Possibly top-10 of the 30's.
As for Hedican being better than Fogolin and Ellett, I'm going to have to disagree. Yes, Hedican got good ice-time with the Canes through the early 2000's, however, those weren't exactly the strongest defensive cores to fight for ice time with. A cup winner and a cup finalist they were, but it was more due to the defensive system, rather than the actually defenceman. If you look at the players on those teams, it isn't fair to say that Bret Hedican was a true #1 defenceman, when you have Fogolin competing against all-time greats for ice-time. Both were very good number 3-4 defenceman, with Fogolin getting the edge for the leadership and toughness he brings. Ellett is a step below these guys, although still a very good offensive defenceman in the MLD.
As for spares, yes, Mike Green does have a great peak on his resume, with a first-team all-star and two great scoring seasons, but Nikolai Makarov is the 5th highest scoring defenceman in Soviet League History. Give Green a couple more years and he may be a regular in the ATD, but right now, I'd take Makarov over Green.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
I thought long and hard about it, and even though this doesn't benefit me.
Dave Malony may be a spot on NHL comparable for Kiessling.
Dave Malony may be a spot on NHL comparable for Kiessling.
Rzeznik
Registered User
Could you elaborate more on this? What made you come to this conclusion?
Just being curious
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Some teams have shutdown third lines to handle this. The Mighty Mouse isn't one of them. This Rambler line will do some damage here. How will Manitoba handle it? And how significant will it be to the series?
This is the essence of the match-up imo.
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
Could you elaborate more on this? What made you come to this conclusion?
Just being curious
Both good but not great offensively.
Both very tough.
Both play a very solid gritty defensive game, but neither a true shutdown guy.
Both quality leaders.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Amherst defeats Manitoba in 7 games.
3 stars:
1. Vladimir Vikulov
2. Josef Malecek
3. Kenny Jonsson
3 stars:
1. Vladimir Vikulov
2. Josef Malecek
3. Kenny Jonsson
Rzeznik
Registered User
Thanks for the great series Nalyd, although it was unfortunate we both couldn't be around for more debate. See you in the main draft!
Nalyd Psycho
Registered User
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