MLD 2016 Assassination Thread
- Thread starter ResilientBeast
- Start date
No, it won't. According to HF policy on projects you don't have any more authority than any other poster.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I don't see how this kind of argument is helpful.
Yes it's true that we should decide things as a group, but for the most part, we already have, based on what timelines tend to be the most agreeable for the largest number of people. For example, this assassination period will be longer than VI would prefer, but shorter than I would prefer. RB's role is to be the one to put these conventions into practice. He's not saying he's the "boss" and there's no reason to argue that he isn't.
Here's my team if anyone has any suggestions: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=119206783&postcount=5
Last edited:
tony d
Registered User
Milwaukee Panthers
Thanks to seventieslord, canadiens1958, dreakmur, selfish man, hedberg, the devilmademe, VanIslander and legends of hockey for the bios
Head Coach: Emile Francis
Captains: Walt Buswell
Alternates: Howard mcnamara, Mike Ricci
johnny Wilson-Mike Ridley-Johnny Gagnon
Geoff Courtnall-Art Chapman-Carson Cooper
Shayne Corson-Mike Ricci-Jimmy Peters
Ulf Dahlen-Michal handzuz-PAt Flatley
Phil Russell-Tomas Kaberle-
Walt Buswell-Dave Ellett
Bingo Kampman-Howard Mcnamara
Jiri Kralik
Olaf Kolzig
Extras: Don Maloney, Slava Bykov, ME Vlasic, Tomas Jonsson
Special Teams:
PP 1: Geoff Courtnall, Mike Ridley, Johnny Gagnon, Tomas Kaberle, Dave Ellett
PP 2: Shayne Corson, Art Chapman, Carson Cooper, Phil Russell, Howard Mcnamara
PK 1: Michal handzuz, Jimmy Peters, Walt Buswell, Bingo Kampman
PK 2: Shayne Corson, Mike Ricci, Phil Russell, Howard Mcnamara
Thanks to seventieslord, canadiens1958, dreakmur, selfish man, hedberg, the devilmademe, VanIslander and legends of hockey for the bios
Head Coach: Emile Francis
Captains: Walt Buswell
Alternates: Howard mcnamara, Mike Ricci
johnny Wilson-Mike Ridley-Johnny Gagnon
Geoff Courtnall-Art Chapman-Carson Cooper
Shayne Corson-Mike Ricci-Jimmy Peters
Ulf Dahlen-Michal handzuz-PAt Flatley
Phil Russell-Tomas Kaberle-
Walt Buswell-Dave Ellett
Bingo Kampman-Howard Mcnamara
Jiri Kralik
Olaf Kolzig
Extras: Don Maloney, Slava Bykov, ME Vlasic, Tomas Jonsson
Special Teams:
PP 1: Geoff Courtnall, Mike Ridley, Johnny Gagnon, Tomas Kaberle, Dave Ellett
PP 2: Shayne Corson, Art Chapman, Carson Cooper, Phil Russell, Howard Mcnamara
PK 1: Michal handzuz, Jimmy Peters, Walt Buswell, Bingo Kampman
PK 2: Shayne Corson, Mike Ricci, Phil Russell, Howard Mcnamara
Last edited:
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Coach - Bun Cook
Valeri Kamensky - Dick Irvin Sr (C) - Gary Dornhoefer
Jaroslav Jirik - Herb Jordan - Andy Hebenton
Al MacAdam - Chris Drury (A) - Art Gagne
Nick Libett - Craig MacTavish - Ryan Callahan
Ex: Dmitri Khristich (F), Scott Gomez (C)
Don Awrey - Dickie Boon (A)
Brian Engblom - Pekka Rautakallio
George Owen - Mike O'Connell
Ex: Percy Traub, Lou Fontinato
Roger Crozier
John Bouse Hutton
PP1: Jaroslav Jirik - Dick Irvin - Andy Hebenton - George Owen - Dickie Boon
PP2: Valeri Kamensky - Herb Jordan - Art Gagne - Pekka Rautakallio - Mike O'Connell
PK1: Craig MacTavish - Ryan Callahan - Don Awrey - Brian Engblom
PK2: Chris Drury - Nick Libett - Pekka Rautakallio - Mike O'Connell
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I've got bios to work on, so I'll be a slow starter in this thread, but i WILL be reviewing every team. Take that to the bank. I'd like to see everyone review at least one themselves, and our three most seasoned vets VI, stoneberg and Hedberg should review at least a couple.
When I get time, I'll post some vsx tables which will at least help as a starting point for understanding where the scoring forwards stand in this draft. I need it just as much as some of you probably do; many of these names are new to the MLD.
I was only in this draft because I had convinced myself I could half-ass it but clearly I can't. I'm enjoying this so much that I plan on doing a full roster of AAA bios as well (I didn't last year for the first time). I guess if you love something enough you make the time.
When I get time, I'll post some vsx tables which will at least help as a starting point for understanding where the scoring forwards stand in this draft. I need it just as much as some of you probably do; many of these names are new to the MLD.
I was only in this draft because I had convinced myself I could half-ass it but clearly I can't. I'm enjoying this so much that I plan on doing a full roster of AAA bios as well (I didn't last year for the first time). I guess if you love something enough you make the time.
Iceman
Registered User
- Jun 9, 2014
- 10,640
- 2,024
Coach: Lindy Ruff
Captain: Mattias Norström
Alternates: Kelly Miller, Mike Murphy
Ross Lonsberry - Murray Oliver - Real Cloutier
Gerard Gallant - Paul Haynes - HÃ¥kan Loob
Kelly Miller (A) - Craig Conroy - Mike Murphy (A)
Fred Scanlan - Jozef Golonka - Billy Gilmour
Normand Rochefort - Bob Dailey
Victor Hedman - Leo Reise Sr.
Mattias Norström (C) - Lubomir Visnovsky
Peter "Pekka" Lindmark
Don Edwards
Spares: Gord Fraser, D - Pierre Mondou, C/LW - Billy McGimsie, C - Loui Eriksson, LW/RW
PP1: Gerard Gallant - Paul Haynes - Real Cloutier - Leo Reise, Sr. - Lubomir Visnovsky
PP2: Ross Lonsberry - Murray Oliver - HÃ¥kan Loob - Victor Hedman - Bob Dailey
PK1: Kelly Miller - Craig Conroy - Normand Rochefort - Mattias Norström
PK2: Mike Murphy - Murray Oliver - Victor Hedman - Leo Reise, Sr.
Budbuster
Registered User
Jacques Lemaire
Slava Kozlov - Alexei Yashin - Tomas Sandstrom
Steve Vickers - Neal Broten - Steve Thomas (A)
Milan Lucic - Thomas Plekanec - Bob MacMillan
Alex Steen - Patrick Sundstrom - Grant Warwick
Barclay Plager (A)- Adrian Aucoin(C)
Joe Watson - Jeff Brown
Ian Turnbull - Dan Hamhius
Paddy Moran
Ron Hextall
SPARES : Adam Deadmarsh, Marty McSorley, Walter Smaill, Cory Stillman
PP1
Kozlov - Yashin - Sandstrom
Turnbull - Brown
PP2
Vickers - Broten - Thomas
Plager - Aucoin
PK1
Plekanec - Steen
Plager - Watson
PK2
Broten - MacMillan
Hamhius - Aucoin
tony d
Registered User
So is anyone going to be doing any reviews? I might get the ball rolling this weekend but it'd be nice to see more reviews here.
I wouldn't be opposed to extending the assassination period, tough to cut if off if a minimal number have been done. I won't have any time until this weekend, at the earliest.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
I'll be doing a handful within the next few days, but the timeline will probably be extended
I'll pm it out, any opposition to extending this till next Wednesday (july 20th)
I'll pm it out, any opposition to extending this till next Wednesday (july 20th)
Last edited:
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
1. This thread began last Friday.
2. Not a single assassination has been made since it began.
3. There is no need to do assassinations if there's little interest in them. We can argue our cases in match-up threads. We might get a more realistic percentage of upsets that way.
4. Let's move on soon. I hope I'm not alone with this sentiment.
5. The gap between the regular season and the playoffs was waaaaay too long in the ATD. Let's not repeat that in the MLD. Set a deadline. Those who are motivated to post will do so.
6. We are halfway through July. I'm hoping to vote in the playoff rounds, but if it takes until the end of August to finish the playoffs without even a lot of participation,... ugh. It will be an epic run of failed procedures this year. Unprecedented.
7. Repeat #4: Let's move on soon. July 20th sounds like an awesome CUT-the-&%#@-OFF date. It's an extension suggested by ResilientBeast. I just fear there may be a lobby to extend it even further with little participation other than one or one and a half guys.
2. Not a single assassination has been made since it began.
3. There is no need to do assassinations if there's little interest in them. We can argue our cases in match-up threads. We might get a more realistic percentage of upsets that way.
4. Let's move on soon. I hope I'm not alone with this sentiment.
5. The gap between the regular season and the playoffs was waaaaay too long in the ATD. Let's not repeat that in the MLD. Set a deadline. Those who are motivated to post will do so.
6. We are halfway through July. I'm hoping to vote in the playoff rounds, but if it takes until the end of August to finish the playoffs without even a lot of participation,... ugh. It will be an epic run of failed procedures this year. Unprecedented.
7. Repeat #4: Let's move on soon. July 20th sounds like an awesome CUT-the-&%#@-OFF date. It's an extension suggested by ResilientBeast. I just fear there may be a lobby to extend it even further with little participation other than one or one and a half guys.
tony d
Registered User
I plan on doing some reviews the weekend, busy with work and what not but yes I'll do at least 2 reviews this weekend.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Winnipeg Fighting Fish
Herb Cain - Marc Savard - Bill Goldsworthy
Thomas Vanek - David Krejci - Steve Sullivan
Murph Chamberlain - Mikko Koivu - Charlie Sands
Doc Romnes - Saku Koivu (A) - Mush March
Dennis Maruk - Rabbit McVeigh
Paul Shmyr (C) - Ed Jovanovski
Rick Ley (A) - Mike Green
Kenny Jonsson - Ron Greschner
Haldor Halderson - Weldy Young
Normie Smith
Jean-Sebastien Giguere
Coach: Bruce Boudreau
PP1: Herb Cain - Marc Savard - Bill Goldsworthy - Ron Greschner - Mike Green
PP2: Thomas Vanek - David Krejci - Steve Sullivan - Kenny Jonsson - Ed Jovanovski
PK1: Mikko Koivu - Murphy Chamberlain - Paul Shmyr - Ed Jovanovski
PK2: David Krecji - Steve Sullivan - Rick Ley - Kenny Jonsson
PK3: Saku Koivu - Charlie Sands - The most rested defence pairing
Herb Cain - Marc Savard - Bill Goldsworthy
Thomas Vanek - David Krejci - Steve Sullivan
Murph Chamberlain - Mikko Koivu - Charlie Sands
Doc Romnes - Saku Koivu (A) - Mush March
Dennis Maruk - Rabbit McVeigh
Paul Shmyr (C) - Ed Jovanovski
Rick Ley (A) - Mike Green
Kenny Jonsson - Ron Greschner
Haldor Halderson - Weldy Young
Normie Smith
Jean-Sebastien Giguere
Coach: Bruce Boudreau
PP1: Herb Cain - Marc Savard - Bill Goldsworthy - Ron Greschner - Mike Green
PP2: Thomas Vanek - David Krejci - Steve Sullivan - Kenny Jonsson - Ed Jovanovski
PK1: Mikko Koivu - Murphy Chamberlain - Paul Shmyr - Ed Jovanovski
PK2: David Krecji - Steve Sullivan - Rick Ley - Kenny Jonsson
PK3: Saku Koivu - Charlie Sands - The most rested defence pairing
tony d
Registered User
Time to get this party started, my comments are in bold:
Forward Line 1:
Herb Cain's one of the better left wingers who is available at this level, very good pick. Marc Savard is a very good playmaker as well. Him and Cain should d quite well together. Goldsworthy's a guy I seriously considered picking as well. Seems to be a good 2 way. Overall a solid 1st line, good job.
Forward Line 2:
Vanek suffers from inconsitency but when he's on he's good, great 2nd line goal scoring winger for sure. Krejci's a good playmaking centre who steps up his game big time in the playoffs which is always good in this environment. Sullivan's a good player who adds a lot to the team as well. Overall a decent 2nd line.
Forward Line 3:
Murph Chamberlain appears to be a popular player. Very good 3rd line guy, I had him in a draft a few yrs. back myself. When it comes to 3rd line centres you probably couldn't ask for any better than Mikko Koivu. Very solid defensive guy who can chip in offensively as well. Charlie Sands offers a good 2 way game as well. Overall a very good 3rd line who will do great defensively and won't hurt you offensively, good 3rd line.
Forward Line 4:
Romnes will add some good playmaking to your 4th line. Koivu will add it all to your team, is this the 1st time he and Mikko will be team mates in these drafts? Mush March seems like a sparkplug which is something you should always go for in your 4th line players, solid 4th line.
Extras:
Maruk's been a favorite of mine for a long time. He's a centre and should be able to slot in at any time on any of your team's line aside from the checking line. Mcveigh's offer a good 2 way game which seems to be a constant throughout your forward lineup. 2 good extras there.
Defense Pairing 1:
Shmyr seems like the prototypical 1st pairing MLD defenseman, great choice for a team captain as well. Jovanovski's a good 1 as well. Very good physical defenseman. Overall a good physical 1st pairing.
Defense Pairing 2:
When it comes to physical defenseman there might not be many better at this level than Rick Ley, very solid guy. Green's offense only, that nay hurt him a little but luckily he has a partner like ley to help him out here. Good 2nd pairing.
Defense Pairing 3:
I had Kenny Jonsson last year, very solid 3rd pairing guy, perhaps a better defensive guy than offensive guy though. Greschner will add offense to this pairing, not sure how good he is defensively though but Jonsson should help Greschner as Ley will with Green.
Extra defenseman:
Halderson will add a decent 2 way defensive game to your extras. Young reads as a solid defenseman, better offensively than defensively. Certainly a good group of extra defensemen.
Goalies:
Smith's a decent #1 goalie in this, perhaps one of the mid level #1's here. Giguere's a good hand to have as a backup as well. Solid goalie tandem.
Coach:
Boudreau's a decent coach in the regular season but he's not the best in the playoffs. That said an offensive lineup like this might be great for him.
Special Teams:
Overall no complaints. Think every player should play to his strengths here for sure.
Final Thoughts:
Overall a solid lineup, good work hedberg, looking forward to seeing how it does, when we get to the voting process.
Forward Line 1:
Herb Cain's one of the better left wingers who is available at this level, very good pick. Marc Savard is a very good playmaker as well. Him and Cain should d quite well together. Goldsworthy's a guy I seriously considered picking as well. Seems to be a good 2 way. Overall a solid 1st line, good job.
Forward Line 2:
Vanek suffers from inconsitency but when he's on he's good, great 2nd line goal scoring winger for sure. Krejci's a good playmaking centre who steps up his game big time in the playoffs which is always good in this environment. Sullivan's a good player who adds a lot to the team as well. Overall a decent 2nd line.
Forward Line 3:
Murph Chamberlain appears to be a popular player. Very good 3rd line guy, I had him in a draft a few yrs. back myself. When it comes to 3rd line centres you probably couldn't ask for any better than Mikko Koivu. Very solid defensive guy who can chip in offensively as well. Charlie Sands offers a good 2 way game as well. Overall a very good 3rd line who will do great defensively and won't hurt you offensively, good 3rd line.
Forward Line 4:
Romnes will add some good playmaking to your 4th line. Koivu will add it all to your team, is this the 1st time he and Mikko will be team mates in these drafts? Mush March seems like a sparkplug which is something you should always go for in your 4th line players, solid 4th line.
Extras:
Maruk's been a favorite of mine for a long time. He's a centre and should be able to slot in at any time on any of your team's line aside from the checking line. Mcveigh's offer a good 2 way game which seems to be a constant throughout your forward lineup. 2 good extras there.
Defense Pairing 1:
Shmyr seems like the prototypical 1st pairing MLD defenseman, great choice for a team captain as well. Jovanovski's a good 1 as well. Very good physical defenseman. Overall a good physical 1st pairing.
Defense Pairing 2:
When it comes to physical defenseman there might not be many better at this level than Rick Ley, very solid guy. Green's offense only, that nay hurt him a little but luckily he has a partner like ley to help him out here. Good 2nd pairing.
Defense Pairing 3:
I had Kenny Jonsson last year, very solid 3rd pairing guy, perhaps a better defensive guy than offensive guy though. Greschner will add offense to this pairing, not sure how good he is defensively though but Jonsson should help Greschner as Ley will with Green.
Extra defenseman:
Halderson will add a decent 2 way defensive game to your extras. Young reads as a solid defenseman, better offensively than defensively. Certainly a good group of extra defensemen.
Goalies:
Smith's a decent #1 goalie in this, perhaps one of the mid level #1's here. Giguere's a good hand to have as a backup as well. Solid goalie tandem.
Coach:
Boudreau's a decent coach in the regular season but he's not the best in the playoffs. That said an offensive lineup like this might be great for him.
Special Teams:
Overall no complaints. Think every player should play to his strengths here for sure.
Final Thoughts:
Overall a solid lineup, good work hedberg, looking forward to seeing how it does, when we get to the voting process.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I'll be starting off by posting some tables and doing some analysis on it. Can you guys help me out a bit by posting the officially listed height and weight (hockey-reference.com when available) for all your players? I'll take it from there.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Coach: Lindy Ruff
Captain: Mattias Norström
Alternates: Kelly Miller, Mike Murphy
Ross Lonsberry - Murray Oliver - Real Cloutier
Gerard Gallant - Paul Haynes - HÃ¥kan Loob
Kelly Miller (A) - Craig Conroy - Mike Murphy (A)
Fred Scanlan - Jozef Golonka - Billy Gilmour
Normand Rochefort - Bob Dailey
Victor Hedman - Leo Reise Sr.
Mattias Norström (C) - Lubomir Visnovsky
Peter "Pekka" Lindmark
Don Edwards
Spares: Gord Fraser, D - Pierre Mondou, C/LW - Billy McGimsie, C - Loui Eriksson, LW/RW
PP1: Gerard Gallant - Paul Haynes - Real Cloutier - Leo Reise, Sr. - Lubomir Visnovsky
PP2: Ross Lonsberry - Murray Oliver - HÃ¥kan Loob - Victor Hedman - Bob Dailey
PK1: Kelly Miller - Craig Conroy - Normand Rochefort - Mattias Norström
PK2: Mike Murphy - Murray Oliver - Victor Hedman - Leo Reise, Sr.
Keeping things succinct:
- Ruff seems a classic MLD coach - he's best with an attacking team
- I don't quite know enough about Lindmark if he deserves to start over Edwards
- I find Lonsberry a bit underwhelming on the top line. Ok typical "glue guy", but Oliver and Cloutier are fantastic 1st MLD liners.
- Your entire centre group is devastatingly good defensively. Hayne's 2nd line wingers complement him well
- Third line is as good as checking line as there is in the draft
- 4th line's offense is a perfect fit for Ruff. Should clean up in the easy minutes.
- Bob Dailey's offensive record seems a bit too brief to really be an elite offensive defenceman at this level. Rochefort's a good stay at home guy, but he may be living a bit too much off his 87 Canada Cup.
- Hedman's already be sufficiently debated.
- Norstrom/Visnovsky is a great bottom pairing
- Kind of odd all your captains are in the bottom half of the lineup
- PK looks good
- Again I'm going to pick on Lonsburry, but perhaps Gilmour would be a better fit on the 2nd PP?
- Overall, very strong team perhaps missing an elite defender to put it over the top.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
I'll be back in tomorrow for some reviews. Until then, here are a few tables to get you going:
VsX (with pre-NHL, CSSR, USSR and WHA included) for scoring line centers, 7-year total:
Yashin | 552
Lacroix | 533
Ribeiro | 519
Smith | 516
Savard | 514
Unger | 513
Broten | 474
Briere | 473
Jordan | 467
Denneny | 467
Irvin | 464
Oliver | 452
Ridley | 452
Chapman | 450
Krejci | 449
O'Connor | 441
Nilsson | 412
Haynes | 411
The usual caveats for this type of thing applies - it is only based on 7 years and makes no attempt to give extra credit to players with superior longevity, it is regular season only, it makes no distinction between goals and assists, says nothing about all-around play, and it doesn't take linemate help into consideration. Still, it is a good shorthand to give us a starting point to sorting out this class of players, many of whom have never had the opportunity to be compared to eachother.
There are a few gaps here that seem to define these centers. For starters, it appears clear that Yashin is the best producing center here and it appears clear that Lacroix is next. Ribeiro, Smith, Savard and Unger are next (though if you care at all about longevity, consistency, toughness, linemates and goals, Unger should be considered a good deal better than those three).
From Broten to O'Connor we have the guys who pretty much all blend into one group, though the difference from the top to the bottom there is not insignificant. From that group, Ridley really stands out as having the best all-around game, with Broten, Oliver and Chapman pretty good as well.
Oliver has been getting high praise and I'm not sure it's quite warranted in this role. Yes he's always been an ATD staple, and I understand the temptation to call him elite at this level because of that. He looked great as a 4th liner in the ATD thanks to his all-around game, passable as a 3rd liner too. But on a scoring line where offense is the most important, it's not as clear cut. He's good, not great.
Nilsson and Haynes stand out as poor for this role. They're both just so far behind the next name up on this list, and don't really have anything else to bridge that gap - neither has any significant intangibles, neither has great longevity (Haynes' is poor), both quite assist-biased (especially Haynes), Haynes' playoffs are poor and Nilsson had Bobby Hull for a linemate.
Here is the same table for scoring line wingers:
Shalimov | 506
Wiseman | 496
Cloutier | 490
Vanek | 481
Bellows | 478
Gagnon | 475
Sullivan | 474
Tardif | 463
Goldsworthy | 463
Sandstrom | 463
Kozlov | 461
Cooper | 456
Cain | 456
Kamensky | 455
Boudrias | 454
Thomas | 450
Hedberg | 442
Courtnall | 432
Lala | 430
Vickers | 410
Henderson | 409
Dornhoefer | 407
Hartnell | 404
Anderson | 394
Hebenton | 392
McDonald | 377
Schmautz | 376
Gallant | 366
Loob | 365
Jirik | 359
Lonsberry | 350
Crowder | 348
Cotton | 346
Wilson | 332
Labine | 330
Bonin | 314
In this particular case, only one gap really shows up, and that's the one from Lala to Vickers. You could call this the "glue guy line". Every guy above it is clearly cut out to be conunted on to score on an MLD scoring line, and every guy below it should be a guy who makes an impact in ways other than scoring, otherwise they're not contributing to an MLD scoring line. In this case, the only "offender" appears to be Loob, though the intangibles possessed by a few names are less strong than others.
On the other hand, players with Lala-level upside or better, who also provide glue guy abilities, look really good here. I'm looking at Andre Boudrias first, and to a lesser extent, Bellows, Tardif, Goldsworthy, Sandstrom, and Thomas.
On the bottom half, there are two smaller gaps. One separates Hebenton and McDonald. One might call that the line between the more and the less talented glue guys - though, this is not a major gap. Towards the bottom, Wilson, Labine and Bonin's scoring indicates they probably would be better suited to bottom line duty here - particularly Bonin.
VsX (with pre-NHL, CSSR, USSR and WHA included) for scoring line centers, 7-year total:
Lacroix | 533
Ribeiro | 519
Smith | 516
Savard | 514
Unger | 513
Broten | 474
Briere | 473
Jordan | 467
Denneny | 467
Irvin | 464
Oliver | 452
Ridley | 452
Chapman | 450
Krejci | 449
O'Connor | 441
Nilsson | 412
Haynes | 411
The usual caveats for this type of thing applies - it is only based on 7 years and makes no attempt to give extra credit to players with superior longevity, it is regular season only, it makes no distinction between goals and assists, says nothing about all-around play, and it doesn't take linemate help into consideration. Still, it is a good shorthand to give us a starting point to sorting out this class of players, many of whom have never had the opportunity to be compared to eachother.
There are a few gaps here that seem to define these centers. For starters, it appears clear that Yashin is the best producing center here and it appears clear that Lacroix is next. Ribeiro, Smith, Savard and Unger are next (though if you care at all about longevity, consistency, toughness, linemates and goals, Unger should be considered a good deal better than those three).
From Broten to O'Connor we have the guys who pretty much all blend into one group, though the difference from the top to the bottom there is not insignificant. From that group, Ridley really stands out as having the best all-around game, with Broten, Oliver and Chapman pretty good as well.
Oliver has been getting high praise and I'm not sure it's quite warranted in this role. Yes he's always been an ATD staple, and I understand the temptation to call him elite at this level because of that. He looked great as a 4th liner in the ATD thanks to his all-around game, passable as a 3rd liner too. But on a scoring line where offense is the most important, it's not as clear cut. He's good, not great.
Nilsson and Haynes stand out as poor for this role. They're both just so far behind the next name up on this list, and don't really have anything else to bridge that gap - neither has any significant intangibles, neither has great longevity (Haynes' is poor), both quite assist-biased (especially Haynes), Haynes' playoffs are poor and Nilsson had Bobby Hull for a linemate.
Here is the same table for scoring line wingers:
Wiseman | 496
Cloutier | 490
Vanek | 481
Bellows | 478
Gagnon | 475
Sullivan | 474
Tardif | 463
Goldsworthy | 463
Sandstrom | 463
Kozlov | 461
Cooper | 456
Cain | 456
Kamensky | 455
Boudrias | 454
Thomas | 450
Hedberg | 442
Courtnall | 432
Lala | 430
Vickers | 410
Henderson | 409
Dornhoefer | 407
Hartnell | 404
Anderson | 394
Hebenton | 392
McDonald | 377
Schmautz | 376
Gallant | 366
Loob | 365
Jirik | 359
Lonsberry | 350
Crowder | 348
Cotton | 346
Wilson | 332
Labine | 330
Bonin | 314
In this particular case, only one gap really shows up, and that's the one from Lala to Vickers. You could call this the "glue guy line". Every guy above it is clearly cut out to be conunted on to score on an MLD scoring line, and every guy below it should be a guy who makes an impact in ways other than scoring, otherwise they're not contributing to an MLD scoring line. In this case, the only "offender" appears to be Loob, though the intangibles possessed by a few names are less strong than others.
On the other hand, players with Lala-level upside or better, who also provide glue guy abilities, look really good here. I'm looking at Andre Boudrias first, and to a lesser extent, Bellows, Tardif, Goldsworthy, Sandstrom, and Thomas.
On the bottom half, there are two smaller gaps. One separates Hebenton and McDonald. One might call that the line between the more and the less talented glue guys - though, this is not a major gap. Towards the bottom, Wilson, Labine and Bonin's scoring indicates they probably would be better suited to bottom line duty here - particularly Bonin.
Last edited:
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Modern defensemen by TOI
There are other ways to judge the overall value of a defenseman, but a great shorthand for them is the answer to two simple questions - how much were they relied on by their team, and how good were these teams that relied on them?
Out of 54 defensemen currently in our top-6 defense corps, 36 can be analyzed by icetime (edit: added five more spares). I usually quote career numbers for these guys, but just like with forwards, where we talk about their best 7 seasons, for these defensemen it is more appropriate to talk about their prime performance.
This table shows the average TOI in the best 8 consecutive seasons for all post-expansion defensemen, followed by their team quality, followed by their adjusted TOI. The adjusted TOI simply uses a formula to estimate how an average team would use this defenseman - so it's higher if the guy was on a good team, and lower if they were on a bad team. Players are sorted by this rating.
Turnbull | 74-81 | 27.21 | 1.06 | 27.74
Awrey | 68-75 | 23.93 | 1.39 | 26.68
Dailey | 74-81 | 24.60 | 1.25 | 26.48
Bouwmeester | 06-13 | 26.15 | 1.03 | 26.41
Russell | 74-81 | 25.50 | 1.11 | 26.39
Marotte | 68-75 | 26.60 | 0.91 | 25.78
Kaberle | 00-08 | 24.82 | 1.08 | 25.46
Babych | 81-88 | 26.02 | 0.93 | 25.40
Bodger | 87-94 | 24.95 | 1.05 | 25.35
Dupont | 72-79 | 22.02 | 1.53 | 25.34
Huddy | 83-90 | 23.06 | 1.31 | 25.21
Plager | 68-75 | 24.69 | 1.04 | 25.01
O'Connell | 80-87 | 24.24 | 1.07 | 24.79
Murray | 78-85 | 24.60 | 1.02 | 24.76
Green | 08-15 | 23.49 | 1.15 | 24.60
Brown | 89-96 | 24.54 | 1.00 | 24.54
Hamrlik | 97-04 | 24.78 | 0.97 | 24.53
Engblom | 80-87 | 23.35 | 1.15 | 24.45
Jovanovski | 00-08 | 24.01 | 1.05 | 24.40
Lumme | 92-99 | 23.81 | 1.05 | 24.20
Aucoin | 99-07 | 24.77 | 0.93 | 24.18
Marois | 82-89 | 23.85 | 1.03 | 24.08
Greschner | 75-82 | 24.23 | 0.98 | 24.07
Watson | 68-75 | 22.53 | 1.22 | 24.06
Ellett | 86-93 | 24.81 | 0.91 | 24.05
Roberts | 80-87 | 23.47 | 1.02 | 23.62
Jonsson | 97-04 | 24.12 | 0.93 | 23.55
Tinordi | 91-98 | 23.40 | 1.01 | 23.48
Hamhuis | 07-14 | 22.67 | 1.08 | 23.25
Vlasic | 09-16 | 22.16 | 1.10 | 22.87
Yushkevich | 96-03 | 22.28 | 1.08 | 22.85
Samuelsson | 88-95 | 22.14 | 1.07 | 22.64
Visnovsky | 04-12 | 23.10 | 0.92 | 22.47
Hedman | 11-16 | 22.18 | 1.02 | 22.33
Rochefort | 81-88 | 21.75 | 1.08 | 22.31
Svoboda | 89-96 | 21.05 | 1.19 | 22.29
Rautakallio | 80-82 | 21.53 | 1.06 | 21.95
Streit | 08-16 | 22.45 | 0.93 | 21.92
Norstrom | 97-04 | 21.65 | 0.99 | 21.58
McSorley | 90-97 | 21.36 | 1.02 | 21.50
Ruotsalainen | 82-90 | 20.30 | 1.03 | 20.50
Notes:
- One thing that this simply can't account for is players who spent a lot of time on the same pairing as a superior player whose performance almost certainly allowed them to play more minutes than they might otherwise. The #1 offender in this case is in fact #1 on the list - Ian Turnbull. To a lesser extent, Mike O'Connell and Charlie Huddy may owe their placements to Bourque and Coffey. Kaberle wasn't far inferior to McCabe, but he was his equal at best and that helped. Other than that, I think the list is fairly "clean" of partner influence.
- Hedman doesn't have 8 seasons played, just 7 at this point. This rating is therefore not accurate and is generous to him. It's where he'd stand after next season if next season goes similar to the last few. Without that benefit he would be an outlier at the bottom - along with, of course, Reijo Ruotsalainen, a guy who I'd like to see as a AAA specialist, gods willing. Rautakallio's rating is also based on just three seasons, though he does have years overseas which add somewhat to his value.
- I'd say I'm somewhat surprised by Awrey and Dailey. Not surprised by Bouwmeester at all. Or Russell. As an ATD staple I expected better from Plager but that's not bad. Tinordi's rating is disappointing. Dupont looks incredibly high, but that's due to an extraordinary team strength rating. Other than that, I think these guys came out pretty close to what I expected.
There are other ways to judge the overall value of a defenseman, but a great shorthand for them is the answer to two simple questions - how much were they relied on by their team, and how good were these teams that relied on them?
Out of 54 defensemen currently in our top-6 defense corps, 36 can be analyzed by icetime (edit: added five more spares). I usually quote career numbers for these guys, but just like with forwards, where we talk about their best 7 seasons, for these defensemen it is more appropriate to talk about their prime performance.
This table shows the average TOI in the best 8 consecutive seasons for all post-expansion defensemen, followed by their team quality, followed by their adjusted TOI. The adjusted TOI simply uses a formula to estimate how an average team would use this defenseman - so it's higher if the guy was on a good team, and lower if they were on a bad team. Players are sorted by this rating.
Awrey | 68-75 | 23.93 | 1.39 | 26.68
Dailey | 74-81 | 24.60 | 1.25 | 26.48
Bouwmeester | 06-13 | 26.15 | 1.03 | 26.41
Russell | 74-81 | 25.50 | 1.11 | 26.39
Marotte | 68-75 | 26.60 | 0.91 | 25.78
Kaberle | 00-08 | 24.82 | 1.08 | 25.46
Babych | 81-88 | 26.02 | 0.93 | 25.40
Bodger | 87-94 | 24.95 | 1.05 | 25.35
Dupont | 72-79 | 22.02 | 1.53 | 25.34
Huddy | 83-90 | 23.06 | 1.31 | 25.21
Plager | 68-75 | 24.69 | 1.04 | 25.01
O'Connell | 80-87 | 24.24 | 1.07 | 24.79
Murray | 78-85 | 24.60 | 1.02 | 24.76
Green | 08-15 | 23.49 | 1.15 | 24.60
Brown | 89-96 | 24.54 | 1.00 | 24.54
Hamrlik | 97-04 | 24.78 | 0.97 | 24.53
Engblom | 80-87 | 23.35 | 1.15 | 24.45
Jovanovski | 00-08 | 24.01 | 1.05 | 24.40
Lumme | 92-99 | 23.81 | 1.05 | 24.20
Aucoin | 99-07 | 24.77 | 0.93 | 24.18
Marois | 82-89 | 23.85 | 1.03 | 24.08
Greschner | 75-82 | 24.23 | 0.98 | 24.07
Watson | 68-75 | 22.53 | 1.22 | 24.06
Ellett | 86-93 | 24.81 | 0.91 | 24.05
Roberts | 80-87 | 23.47 | 1.02 | 23.62
Jonsson | 97-04 | 24.12 | 0.93 | 23.55
Tinordi | 91-98 | 23.40 | 1.01 | 23.48
Hamhuis | 07-14 | 22.67 | 1.08 | 23.25
Vlasic | 09-16 | 22.16 | 1.10 | 22.87
Yushkevich | 96-03 | 22.28 | 1.08 | 22.85
Samuelsson | 88-95 | 22.14 | 1.07 | 22.64
Visnovsky | 04-12 | 23.10 | 0.92 | 22.47
Hedman | 11-16 | 22.18 | 1.02 | 22.33
Rochefort | 81-88 | 21.75 | 1.08 | 22.31
Svoboda | 89-96 | 21.05 | 1.19 | 22.29
Rautakallio | 80-82 | 21.53 | 1.06 | 21.95
Streit | 08-16 | 22.45 | 0.93 | 21.92
Norstrom | 97-04 | 21.65 | 0.99 | 21.58
McSorley | 90-97 | 21.36 | 1.02 | 21.50
Ruotsalainen | 82-90 | 20.30 | 1.03 | 20.50
Notes:
- One thing that this simply can't account for is players who spent a lot of time on the same pairing as a superior player whose performance almost certainly allowed them to play more minutes than they might otherwise. The #1 offender in this case is in fact #1 on the list - Ian Turnbull. To a lesser extent, Mike O'Connell and Charlie Huddy may owe their placements to Bourque and Coffey. Kaberle wasn't far inferior to McCabe, but he was his equal at best and that helped. Other than that, I think the list is fairly "clean" of partner influence.
- Hedman doesn't have 8 seasons played, just 7 at this point. This rating is therefore not accurate and is generous to him. It's where he'd stand after next season if next season goes similar to the last few. Without that benefit he would be an outlier at the bottom - along with, of course, Reijo Ruotsalainen, a guy who I'd like to see as a AAA specialist, gods willing. Rautakallio's rating is also based on just three seasons, though he does have years overseas which add somewhat to his value.
- I'd say I'm somewhat surprised by Awrey and Dailey. Not surprised by Bouwmeester at all. Or Russell. As an ATD staple I expected better from Plager but that's not bad. Tinordi's rating is disappointing. Dupont looks incredibly high, but that's due to an extraordinary team strength rating. Other than that, I think these guys came out pretty close to what I expected.
Last edited:
Ad
Upcoming events
-
GAME 6 - Saskatoon Blades @ Moose Jaw Warriors - Saskatoon Blades leads series 3-2Wagers: 4Staked: $1,575.00Event closes- Updated:
-
-
-
Game 4 Grand Rapids Griffins @ Rockford Icehogs -Grand Rapids Griffins leads series 2-1Wagers: 2Staked: $276.00Event closes- Updated:
-
