MLD 2011 Draft Thread II

[vecens24]

Dave, we selected Muckler right before Iain selected his three guys.

 

[Dreakmur]

With all that said, Berard was still a specialist and I can't think of another drafted MLD defensemen who was only top-3 in ES icetime on their team 3 times or fewer (other than Bladon - 3, and of course, Doughty, who has only played three years, all as a #1). In other words, the statement, when revised, still applies to Berard - it's just not nearly as damning.

As I've said before, overall ice time is a better indicator of overall value than ES ice time.

 

[seventieslord]

Once he was half-blind, definitely. Before that, I'd compare him to Campbell.

It's just that two season career doesn't really mean squat. The Caps' goalie I mentioned is a proof of that. I'll take a consistent if unspectacular Brad Stuart over a two-year wonder.

It's a three-season career... all of which were excellent. The goalie in question had two years that were significant. One of them was an undeserved Vezina. Another was merely a season as an "above average" starter, nothing special, not top-10 in sv%, some hype-related Vezina votes in a lockout year.

Brian Berard was just finally becoming a solid NHLer when the eye injury happened. I remember Berard's career - he was looking to be a bust and a lot of people thought the only reason he kept getting chances was because of where he was drafted. Finally was starting to look like a good top 4 defenseman and then the injury happened.

Sort of, but not quite. He wasn't becoming "solid" - maybe "acceptable". And his stock fell during his time in Toronto, it didn't rise. He was given every opportunity to succeed in 1999, but to advance in the playoffs Quinn had no choice but to cut his minutes. They were cut further in 2000 when the injury occurred.

It's not strange at all that 1998-99 was his best season from an ice-time perspective. He was 21 and finally rounding into becoming a solid defenseman. The eye injury happened in March, 2000, and he basically became a specialist after that.

He wasn't "rounding into form" though. He was a nightmare defensively. He was getting a ton of icetime in Toronto that year though, maybe as a "feeling out" period, I don't know. He was already showing clear signs of being a specialist. We (Leafs fans) all wondered how we could get him for so "cheap" (as in, straight up for a 28-year old goalie we had no use for) but we found out fast.

And Berard won the Calder.

You're not actually saying this as though it adds to his all-time worth, though, are you?

God damnit Reds you scooped us. Thanks for the PM to all except Dave who actually did it.

We're actually taking what more than likely will be our assistant coach before our head coach:

John Muckler.

If you didn't take him now, I would have later.

Loyalty, justifying salary, etc.

I don't think it's common, but it has happened in the past.

Yeah, it can happen, I can think of a few isolated cases. Those can be addressed as one-off situations when encountered. It doesn't happen a lot though. Look at the Leafs' big lug. They sure didn't play him more to justify his salary!

TOI, whichever way you want to look at it, is dramatically impacted by the team a player plays on.

Careful with this statement and how it applies to Berard though! Remember, he played on crap defense corps and still couldn't get a lot of ES minutes. It would, in theory, be easier to earn those minutes on those teams, and harder on better teams. You are absolutely right that TOI is impacted by the team a player plays on, and the quality of the team is the biggest part of that.

Overall TOI tells you how valuable he is to his team. ES tells you how valuable his is to his team.... at even strength. Which one is a better measure of the player's true overall value? (should I even have to asl that?)

Yes and no. I usually use overall icetime as a shorthand, but ES tells us a lot, too. For example, the term "first pairing defenseman" should refer to a guy who was top-2 on his team in ES icetime, not just top-2 overall.

And obviously, in terms of identifying a specialist, it's very important to make that distinguishment. When the coaches don't trust a guy at ES, but he gets on the PP and gets points, our assessment of their value as a player should transcend their overall TOI number.

The correllation between strong ES play and winning is very powerful... PP and PK, not so much. A defenseman's TOI number can be skewed by an excess of PP time, and if it is, it generally doesn't reflect how important that defenseman was to their team's fortunes IMO.

 

[DaveG]

Dave, we selected Muckler right before Iain selected his three guys.

yep, saw that just after I made the post.

 

[seventieslord]

Here you go trying to show what how smart again....

I always make a big deal when people break or circumvent rules, cheat, or do dishonest things. It shuldn't come as a surprise.

I didn't really even want to be in this draft, so it wouldn't take much to get me to quit anyway.

Like I said, don't let me stop you.

What's funny is just yesterday you asked about how the rules applied to Shorty Green, and I immediately told you I was open to a reinterpretation of the rule that made more sense. Where's your objection to that? Or was that different because it suited you?

Berard usually ranked higher in ES point among defenseman than he did PP points, so he didn't rely on PP ice time to put up points. That is not a specialist.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. He was 4th in ES points among defensemen in 1997, 16th in 2003 and 10th in 2004. He was never anywhere near the top beyond that.

His PP points rankings of significance are 12th, 6th, 20th, 10th and 21st.

His 50.2% of career points being scored on the PP is way out of whack compared to the average defenseman (about 32%)

His ES production rate was pretty good overall. It's not exceptional, though. Dallas Smith, Bob Dailey, Gary bergman, Bill White, Robert Svehla, Behn Wilson, Dave Maloney, Barry Beck, and Wade Redden were all within one percentage point of him on an adjusted, per-game level (above and below), and most of them played a ton more games than him.

As I've said before, overall ice time is a better indicator of overall value than ES ice time.

As I said just now, it's not always, particularly in very skewed cases like this one.

 

[Dreakmur]

What's funny is just yesterday you asked about how the rules applied to Shorty Green, and I immediately told you I was open to a reinterpretation of the rule that made more sense. Where's your objection to that? Or was that different because it suited you?

Funny.... when somebody makes an attempt to call you out like this, you just edit the post....

Don't worry, I won't duck it, since I actually don't have anything to hide.....


My question basically boiled down to this: does "semi-pro" count as "pro" for determing era requirements. Yes makes more sense.

 

[seventieslord]

Funny.... when somebody makes an attempt to call you out like this, you just edit the post....

The entire post wasn't inappropriate... I removed the flaming/mod abuse/whatever else it fell under, and left the rest of it.

Don't worry, I won't duck it, since I actually don't have anything to hide.....

My question basically boiled down to this: does "semi-pro" count as "pro" for determing era requirements. Yes makes more sense.

Yeah, but rules are rules, right? Gotta stick with them no matter what, right? Don't attempt to do the right thing to make more sense!

 

[Dreakmur]

The entire post wasn't inappropriate... I removed the flaming/mod abuse/whatever else it fell under, and left the rest of it.

You deleted the part that you didn't want other people to see and know.

Yeah, but rules are rules, right? Gotta stick with them no matter what, right? Don't attempt to do the right thing to make more sense!

And the rules were what? They were not 100% clear. We cleared them up, we didn't change them to circumvent the draft.

Yeah, but rules are rules, right? Gotta stick with them no matter what, right? Don't attempt to do the right thing to make more sense!

I find this abusive. How do I give you an infraction?

 

[vecens24]

Kapanen bio is done if anyone wants to see it it's in the bio thread. I have a feeling most people know Sami's game though so I'm not gonna post it here.

 

[seventieslord]

You deleted the part that you didn't want other people to see and know.

I would have taken great delight in replying to that nonsense. But this section needs to remain civilized and I can't contribute to garbage like that (anymore). Unfortunately, the editing of the post was solely due to my responsibility to "be the bigger man", as tempting as it may have been.

In any case, you should know that "getting personal" is cause for post editing, deletions, warnings and worse.

And the rules were what? They were not 100% clear. We cleared them up, we didn't change them to circumvent the draft.

the rule said Pro. Senior is not pro. I used a common-sense approach to solve a minor problem created by the rules.

I find this abusive. How do I give you an infraction?

Done yet?


-------

mark: I was able to see your comment that another mod deleted. Please take note that I agree and I already apologized for that remark.

 

[vecens24]

Alright since I can't get a hold of TDMM I'm going to be selecting. With the first selection, we're going to be taking C Mike Ribeiro. He has 3 top 10s in assists and we think he will fit pretty well with the second line of Dahlen and Stastny.

The second selection will be RW Ronald Pettersson. This bio is pretty much vultured from Hedberg. We will be playing a Kapanen-Sullivan-Pettersson third line probably.

RW Ronald "Sura-Pelle" Pettersson

IIHF Hall of Fame (2004)
#14 Jersey retired by Frolunda

Olympic Silver Medalist (1964)

2 x World Championship Gold Medalist (1957, 1962)
2 x World Championship Silver Medalist (1963, 1967)
4 x World Championship Bronze Medalist (1958, 1965, 1975, 1976)

Guldskridskon Award (1965) – Team Sweden MVP

Pettersson played 252 International Games for Sweden, which included 13 World Championships and 3 Olympics.

2 x Skyttetrofen Winner (1958, 1963) – Top Scorer
Most Goals (1963)
Guldpucken Winner (1960) – MVP
6 x All-Star (1959, 1960, 1962, 1965, 1966, 1967)


Regular Season
Games: 311
Goals: 291
Assists: 164
Points: 455

Play-offs
Games: 75
Goals: 71
Assists: 19
Points: 90

8th in Points, 3rd in Goals 1961 World Championships
8th in Points, 7th in Goals 1965 World Championships

Wikipedia (article used written sources in Swedish):

He played 252 international games for Sweden between 1955 and 1967, including thirteen World Championships and three Olympic Games. Between 1951 and 1967 Pettersson played for Surahammars IF, Södertälje SK, and Västra Frölunda IF. He won the Swedish championship twice, in 1956 with Södertälje and in 1965 with Västra Frölunda. He won Guldpucken in 1959–60 as the most valuable player in Swedish Championship playoffs.

After suffering a career ending injury in 1967 Pettersson took on the role as head coach for the Swedish national junior team from 1968 to 1974, the Swedish national men's team from 1974 to 1976, and the Norwegian national men's team from 1978 to 1981. He was inducted into the IIHF Hall of Fame in 2004, and his jersey #14 was retired by Västra Frölunda in 2002.

Pettersson played for Sweden in all thirteen international championships between 1955 and 1967, totaling 252 games for Tre Kronor. Pettersson, a right winger, together with centre XXX and left winger XXX, formed the legendary ungdomskedjan (youth line), one of the most successful and considered as Tre Kronor's best line ever.

Pettersson was an incredibly hard working right winger,who played an efficient game and made every minute on the ice count. He was a fast skater, and had a well developed goal scoring ability. He was considered a team player, not a crowd pleaser or a man for newspaper headlines, despite his natural athletic talent. Like a chess player he always thought one step ahead, knewing what do to when he received the puck, he was sly, cunning, coldblooded and could always do unexpected moves. His passing game was of high quality and precision, he was a good shooter but rarely used powerful shots, instead he preferred well placed precision shots which had a remarkable ability to find the net.

Pettersson suffered a career ending leg injury at the age of 32 which ended his outstanding career.

 

[BenchBrawl]

always liked Ribeiro , he did go to the same high school I've been way back , he was really dominant in minor hockey.

 

[seventieslord]

undrafted players... (who actually have a chance of being drafted)

 

[vecens24]

undrafted players... (who actually have a chance of being drafted)

SORRY!!! Pretty much just copy and pasted the bio. I'd assume they do get drafted at some point.

 

[BenchBrawl]

undrafted players... (who actually have a chance of being drafted)

he just drafted ribeiro ?!

 

[vecens24]

he just drafted ribeiro ?!

Yeah, there's a decent chance he's the best playmaking center left with 3 top 10's in assists.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

he just drafted ribeiro ?!

I believe he meant in the Pettersson bio, and he's since edited them out.

And I like Ribeiro at this point, he's got some of the best finishes left, and I was looking at him as my 1st line center in the AAA draft if he somehow dropped to that point.

 

[tony d]

Guess it's my turn with my 2 picks I select Defenseman Scott Hannan and Centre Michael Nylander.

Hannan is the first active player I've drafted. He's developed a good reputation for being a solid defensive defenseman over more than a decade long NHL career.

For more on Hannan click the following link:

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=15102

Nylander was one of the more under-appreciated playmakers of his time. he had 5 seasons of 40 or more assists. I'm planning on having a 4th line mix of players so Nylander's a good add there.

More on Nylander can be found here:

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=11214

 

[seventieslord]

I believe he meant in the Pettersson bio, and he's since edited them out.

And I like Ribeiro at this point, he's got some of the best finishes left, and I was looking at him as my 1st line center in the AAA draft if he somehow dropped to that point.

Same here, even though I hate the guy with his weasely face and shifty eyes.

Guess it's my turn with my 2 picks I select Defenseman Scott Hannan and Centre Michael Nylander.

Hannan is the first active player I've drafted. He's developed a good reputation for being a solid defensive defenseman over more than a decade long NHL career.

For more on Hannan click the following link:

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=15102

Nylander was one of the more under-appreciated playmakers of his time. he had 5 seasons of 40 or more assists. I'm planning on having a 4th line mix of players so Nylander's a good add there.

More on Nylander can be found here:

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=11214

Big fan of the Hannan pick.

-----------------------

BTW, Keith Brown is now on the open market. Anyone who picked after pick #187 is free to bid on his services, otherwise he is the casualty of Doughtygate.

 

[BillyShoe1721]

I'll do my best to justify Drew Doughty's place here.

D Drew Doughty

1x NHL 2nd Team All Star
1x NHL 1st Rookie All Star
1x Olympic Gold Medalist(youngest member of team)
1x World Championships Silver Medalist
3rd Norris Trophy Voting, 2010
2x Top 24 Points Among Defensemen(3, 24)
ES TOI/G Ranks: 1, 1, 1
TOI/G Ranks: 1, 1, 1
TOI/G Ranks in NHL(50 game minimum): 5, 12, 25
11 points in 12 career playoff games
126 points in 239 career regular season games

Drew Doughty was born on December 8, 1989 in London Ontario. He had a standout junior career for the Guelph Storm and was a member of the gold medal winning Canadian team at the 2008 World Junior Championships in the Czech Republic.

In what many were calling the best draft in years, Doughty was taken second overall by the Los Angeles King in 2008 and to the surprise of many, the defender cracked the Kings lineup out of his very first training camp.

Doughty's first NHL campaign was a steady build, but his continuous improvement throughout the year showed that the Kings had selected wisely at the draft the previous June and culminated with his addition to the Canadian team at the 2009 World Hockey Championships.

In 2010, Doughty's career continued on the fast track, he was the youngest member of the Canadian team that captured gold on home soil at the 2010 Olympic Winter Games in Vancouver.

http://www.legendsofhockey.net/LegendsOfHockey/jsp/SearchPlayer.jsp?player=22672

"We felt that Drew Doughty in this case is little bit more complete a player and based on how he played at the world championships and saw him play in big games that he was a better fit for us," said Yzerman. "I'll just simply say the seven defencemen we picked were the seven we liked the best."

-Steve Yzerman

Without going into too much detail, these numbers show that Doughty's a solid option at even-strength, penalty killing, and on the power play. To start with, Doughty's numbers show that he faces tough opposition while playing for the LA Kings. At even strength, Doughty produces 1.1 points per sixty minutes of icetime along with a positive goal differential of +.6 goals scored for the Kings while he is on the ice, again per sixty minutes. In comparison, the Flames defensemen (Bouwmeester, Phaneuf, Regehr) are in the range of .47-.67 which gives the edge to Doughty at even-strength. Mike Green edges out Doughty here at 1.64 points/60 along with a goal differential of +1.72/60.

Shorthanded, Doughty is the Kings best penalty killer in terms of defensemen. He allows a very respectable 4.54 goals against per sixty minutes of ice time while killing penalties. That's about on par with Robyn Regehr, better than Dion Phaneuf or Mike Green, and not quite as good as Jay Bouwmeester.

On the power play, Doughty produces 5.18 points per sixty minutes of ice time. Again, in comparison ,the previous Flames defensemen range from a low of 2.19 (Bouwmeester) to a high of 3.15 (Phaneuf) which again supports Doughty's greater relative effectiveness. Even the much heralded offense of Mike Green has been slightly lower on the power play this season than Doughty (Green is 5.03 pts/60).

In conclusion, Drew Doughty's a young player with great draft pedigree who's already a very well-rounded defensemen at the NHL level. The numbers themselves suggest that he's a better option this season than any of the three Calgary defensemen invited to Team Canada's camp and probably better than Mike Green.

http://olympichockeyblog.com/2010-articles/january/player-profile-drew-doughty-on-team-canada.html

When done correctly, the game of hockey is a beautiful thing to watch, and when Drew Doughty winds it up for an end-to-end rush, it’s about as good as it gets.

Doughty’s foremost strength is his offensive prowess. He is constantly helping forwards create chances offensively, and if he isn’t providing support on the boards, he’s carrying the puck up ice and creating chances via his skates and his passing ability.

On the power-play, Doughty sports a great shot and his skating/pivoting ability make him a great threat on the man-advantage. He’ll shoot the puck from everywhere and directs the flow of the play with his vision and passing abilities.

But don’t discount what he can do in the defensive zone. Doughty’s strengths defensively come from his cool demeanor, his ability to skate the puck and his smarts. Rarely does Doughty make an ill advised pass or get caught out of position. He showed his defensive prowess this year in the world stage as he continually played solid hockey during international competitions.

http://www.faceoff-factor.com/nhl-entry-draft/1571/prospect-profile-drew-doughty

Keith and especially Doughty, quickly emerged as Canada’s very best players in the Olympic tournament.

All that changed in Vancouver, as Doughty was, arguably, Canada’s best player throughout the Olympic tournament, despite going into the Olympics being thought of as Canada’s number seven defensemen, one who would see far less ice time than the veterans ahead of him, including 2000 Norris Trophy winner Chris Pronger and future Hall-of-Famer and 2004 Norris Trophy recipient Scott Niedermayer.

But Doughty not only got onto the ice, he quickly became Canadian head coach Mike Babcock’s go-to defenseman. Indeed, it was Doughty who was holding down the fort on Team Canada’s blue line in the most critical situations, at even strength, on the power play and on the penalty-kill.

Doughty’s play during the Olympics generated a definite buzz in the hockey media that did not wane after the Olympics. Rather, it continued through the announcement that he was one of the three finalists for the Norris Trophy on April 23 and into the NHL playoffs.

“He is deserving, absolutely,” said Kings head coach Terry Murray. “There has to be a lot of consideration for him. His statistics, his points and, most importantly, his defensive play—he’s a high-plus player. He plays lots of minutes, critical minutes. That earns him the right to get some consideration.”

http://frozenroyalty.net/2010/06/10/nhls-norris-trophy-should-go-to-los-angeles-kings-drew-doughty/

ASSETS: Plays with the poise and composure that bely his youth. Has excellent instincts in all three zones and is an outstanding passer.

CAREER POTENTIAL: Elite offensive defenseman with all-around ability.

http://forecaster.thehockeynews.com/hockeynews/hockey/player.cgi?6495

 

[jarek]

I find this abusive. How do I give you an infraction?

seventies is right, though.. in the chat room thread, you were so gung ho about how breaking the rules is breaking the rules, no gray area about it. Why does this not apply here as well?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Mike Ribeiro, C

Top 20 Assists: 7, 9, 10, 17
Top 20 Points: 12, 20

Since 2003-04, Ribeiro is 20th in points, with 75% as much as 2nd place Ovechkin. He is only 10 total points behind Olli Jokinen (460-470) in the time frame. Their "per-game" numbers are basically the same.

His vs. 2 scores (removing outliers) by year since then:

78%, 75%, 72%, 71%, 52%, 49%, 48%

He played in the 2008 All Star Game at the tough to crack center position.

 

[vecens24]

Actually just found out that Pettersson actually played defense also according to the IIHF website, which I didn't know before selecting him actually. This means he at least had good defensive sense for a RW which means he will be a perfect fit with our two-way 3rd line. I feel much better about this pick now than I did when making the pick.

 

[RustyRazor]

With pick #231, the Pittsburgh Hornets select Al MacNeil, coach.

Won a Stanley Cup and three Calder Cups as a head coach within the Montreal organization and two more as Director of Player Personnel. Then coached the underdog Flames to the Wales Conference Finals as head coach in 1981 before winning a fourth Stanley Cup with Calgary in 1989 as Assistant General Manager.

Career NHL 306 games 138-113-55 .541 Playoffs 43 games 22-21-0 .512

Following an 11-year playing career in the NHL, Al MacNeil became the Canadiens’ coach in 1971 as a mid-season replacement for Claude Ruel.

When MacNeil took over behind the bench, the team appeared to be on its way to missing the playoffs for a second straight year.

MacNeil managed to turn things around, though, and with the help of players such as Jean Beliveau, Yvan Cournoyer and Jean-Claude Tremblay, he got the Canadiens back on track in the second half and the team finished the regular season with 42 wins and a playoff berth.

Going against convention and counsel, McNeil called on rookie goalie Ken Dryden to defend the team’s net at the outset of the playoffs. His gamble paid off as the Canadiens beat Boston, Minnesota and Chicago to claim the Stanley Cup for the 17th time in team history.

Unfortunately, MacNeil developed a stormy relationship with veteran star Henri Richard during his tenure in Montreal that ultimately cost him his job at the end of the season.

Crucial to the Stanley Cup victory was MacNeil's decision to use rookie goaltender Ken Dryden in the playoffs despite Dryden having played only six regular-season games in 1970–71. MacNeil was presumably impressed that Dryden won all these games, allowing only nine goals (1.65 GAA). Another crucial choice was having rookie Rejean Houle mark the Black Hawks' goalscorer Bobby Hull. Houle was nicknamed the "shadow of Bobby Hull" as Hull managed to score only one even-strength goal in the series.

 

[RustyRazor]

With pick #232, the Pittsburgh Hornets select Dwayne Roloson, goalie.

Roloson earned a roster spot with the Minnesota Wild in 2001. In the 2002–03 NHL season, Roloson shared netminding duties with *** ******** as the Wild made their first ever appearance in the post-season, defeating the Colorado Avalanche in the first round and the Vancouver Canucks in the second round. Despite splitting goaltending duties with *******, Roloson earned his first All-Star appearance at age 34, appearing in the 2004 NHL All-Star Game with the Western Conference team. He also won the Roger Crozier Saving Grace Award for having the NHL's best save percentage.

On March 8, 2006, Roloson was traded to the Edmonton Oilers... Initially, Oilers General Manager **** ****** was harshly criticized for the acquisition when Roloson struggled during the regular season. Lowe was criticized both for not acquiring a better goaltender, and also for surrendering a first-round draft pick to a divisional rival.

Criticism was muted following sensational play by Roloson, backstopping the Oilers to the final of the 2006 Stanley Cup Playoffs. He had a record of 12–5 through the first three rounds, and along with Chris Pronger, was considered a front-runner for the Conn Smythe Trophy if the Oilers were victorious in the finals.

However, during Game 1 of the Stanley Cup Finals against the Carolina Hurricanes, Roloson suffered a third-degree MCL sprain of his right knee. The Oilers eventually lost to the Hurricanes in seven games.

ASSETS: Is capable of playing spectacularly well for stretches and has leadership qualities as the last line of defense.

Dwayne Roloson is ranked number-1 in the NHL Playoffs, for goals against average, and save percentage. He's the hottest goaltender in the playoffs. But he was mainly concerned with the news that had the Lightning opening the Eastern Conference Finals against Boston, on Saturday.

"Obviously, it was a little mind-boggling trying to figure when we're leaving, what we're doing," Roloson told 10 News after the Tuesday practice. "But at the same time, it's playoff hockey and you never know what's going to happen."

And if anyone knows, that you never know in the playoffs, it's 41-year-old Dwayne Roloson. He's played in 44 playoff games, in his 14 years in the NHL. And he's learned to play the game, more by feel than anything else.

Lightning right wing Marty St. Louis shook goalie Dwayne Roloson's hand in a somber locker room Friday night, then shook his head.

Roloson had given Tampa Bay a chance with a spectacular performance in a 1-0 loss to the Bruins in Game 7 of the Eastern Conference final. His teammates wish they could have given the 41-year-old veteran more to work with.

Roloson was on top of his game, making 37 saves as the Bruins peppered him with several great scoring chances.

In the end, Roloson's streak of seven wins in elimination games was snapped, one shy of a league record. But it wasn't his fault. In a series in which Roloson struggled at times, getting pulled from Games 2 and 4 and giving up four goals on 20 shots in Game 6, he bounced back

.

He's money in the post-season, especially when facing elimination. If not for the injury in the '06 postseason, he'd likely be a Stanley Cup champion with a Conn Smythe trophy in his cabinet. He's the Hornets' starter.