Value of: Mitch Marner this offseason (2.5 mil retained)

[Silky Johnson]

I'm saying Doughty last won a cup a decade (in seasons) ago.

Doughty today is not as good as Doughty in 2014. Doughty was drafted in the same draft as Karlsson who was traded for basically nothing. The notion that Doughty today with his current contract is more valuable than Marner is ridiculous.

Dude, there is no such thing as a decade in seasons. A decade is 10 years. Period.

Just rephrase as "sorry, I am wrong. I should have said 10 seasons"

 

[Silky Johnson]

i could see an extended marner for power in a big deal.

Wow, extended at what 3M x 8 years?

Power has alot of value...in fact he might end up being one of the better value contracts in the league if he continues in his current trajectory.

I think the odds of Power becoming a star 1D are higher than Marner growing a pair and having becoming a playoff performer.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

A good right-shot youngish d-man with size and with term.

A couple of Vancouver fans I've seen want to do something around Hronek and Marner. Hronek is 6 foot 0, so, not a big guy but not small either. RFA and wants $7m to $7.5m cap hit for I am assuming at minimum 4 years, probably longer. One proposal also tried to cap dump Mikheyev (2 years @ $4.75m), as I think they're desperate to open cap so they can extend Joshua and Zadorov. I suppose Leafs could take Mikheyev if Marner's salary is going the other way, but I don't think Hronek (who wants a big cap hit) and Mikheyev (who is negative value) is enough. Leafs might be asking for pick and/or prospect as well. Raty was the prospect offered in that proposal.

Maybe Vancouver GM has interest in Liljegren as well, which Leafs would be willing to include in a deal. If they trade Hronek out, Vancouver's best RHD is Juulsen. They'll need somebody to play RD.

The other interesting one is Seth Jones, which some people like and some people hate.

I suggested Trouba, but apparently he won't waive to play for a Canadian team due to his wife's medical licenses not being valid in Canada, or something like that. Also not young-ish.

Ekblad, if Florida was interested (I doubt it), is IMO a bad idea. Not truly "young-ish" anymore either.

Pulock from Islanders is a guy I'm interested in as a Leafs fan. Not sure if that would work or not. Pageau or Nelson probably involved too for cap reasons and Islanders looking to shake up their roster.

Erik Karlsson is not what the Leafs need and he isn't young at all.

Jensen from Washington could be worth looking at, but not a good enough player to move Marner for IMO. Same with Fabbro.

Parayko is controversial but possibly a fit? Blues don't really seem to need wingers though and Parayko traded out might mean they're changing direction and not trying extremely hard to make playoffs every year anymore. IDK about this one. Also not young.

Andersson from Calgary is interesting. Don't see Flames wanting Marner though. Could be wrong. Who knows.

Doughty would be ideal, even though he isn't young at all, but Kings won't be interested.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Kempe is probably a good starting point in a Marner deal... however Roy is basically already at UFA, so he will decide whether he wants to sign in Toronto.

I would think that the Leafs would want at least 1 more meaningful piece in this deal... Byfield obviously would be a great add.... maybe Turcotte.

Byfield...yeah, that's not going to happen.

 

[Leafsfanperson]

You guys should definitely run it back! Its gone so well. Good point.

Or change the pieces that suck instead of giving away elite talent.

Maybe we could trade Auston for a late 1st just for the sake of a mix up...

 

[bert]

Or change the pieces that suck instead of giving away elite talent.

Maybe we could trade Auston for a late 1st just for the sake of a mix up...

I cant believe you watch the team as much as you do and think that being this top heavy works. They have been changing the pieces that suck for years the only constant has been the players you refuse to want to trade. No one is asking the leafs to go full blow up. Its simply trading the softest, smallest, 11 million dollar player and actually addressing a big need which is the D core with the money. He's walking at year end may as well get whatever they can for him.

Matthews and Nylander are more than enough talent to build a forward group around and these are players that bring it when it matters most. No contender can have an 11 million dollar winger that avoids contact when the going gets tough. Simply doesnt work in a cap world. Maybe if the team is built a very specific way where he is the only player like that and they have a big heavy D core and center position but the leafs dont.

Marner for Kuzmenko. Leafs replace 2/3rds of the offense and can sign a top pairing defender.

This actually isnt terrible. Its realistic.

 

[bert]

So the interesting part is Marner has another season until he's a UFA, and I personally think he probably wants out of Toronto. The Leafs either deal with this sooner or later, but the more they wait the more they'll risk another DeBrincat situation, so if I'm them, I'd work on the best trade possible for him as soon as they can.

They are already in a Debrincat situation. Like right now.

It’s not a stalemate. Marner has all the control. There is literally nothing the Leafs can do unless he agrees.

Leaf fans dont seem to understand the situation.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

I’ll give you a fart in a jar, sir, and no more.

Not really sure why anyone bails Toronto outta their mess. Marner has enough of a track record where I just wouldn’t trust him for playoffs, and he’s too expensive to be like a Kuvnetsov option.

The only teams that make any sense to me are teams like Columbus, where you just kinda get a fun regular season guy to boost attendance and make the season bearable.

Ooh, actually- ok, maybe there are some teams..

Philly

Ristolainen+ something

For Marner.

Leafs get the big physical dude they need and can sign more, and Philly just isn’t winning the cup anytime soon. Marner should be enough for another playoff appearance, though, so who cares, and he can only up his stock by doing well in those playoffs.

 

[bert]

1.) he makes league min next year
2.) any star player in the last year has a defacto UFA as they pick where they sign
3.) you are just saying he has low value.

Insiders disagree.

How can he have value when he can just pick and choose where he goes? Does a contender want to pay a small winger who doesnt like contact 11 million dollars in a cap world? I dunno. I dont think many GM's want that type of player. You have to have the right team make up. When you have such a small market of suitors it hurts the value.

 

[Bruce Granville]

I’ll give you a fart in a jar, sir, and no more.

Not really sure why anyone bails Toronto outta their mess. Marner has enough of a track record where I just wouldn’t trust him for playoffs, and he’s too expensive to be like a Kuvnetsov option.

The only teams that make any sense to me are teams like Columbus, where you just kinda get a fun regular season guy to boost attendance and make the season bearable.

Ooh, actually- ok, maybe there are some teams..

Philly

Ristolainen+ something

For Marner.

Leafs get the big physical dude they need and can sign more, and Philly just isn’t winning the cup anytime soon. Marner should be enough for another playoff appearance, though, so who cares, and he can only up his stock by doing well in those playoffs.

Wow, Leafs get their Nurse/Jones for half of what Marner makes and can still add a forward like Hyman or so…

 

[Leafsfanperson]

I cant believe you watch the team as much as you do and think that being this top heavy works. They have been changing the pieces that suck for years the only constant has been the players you refuse to want to trade. No one is asking the leafs to go full blow up. Its simply trading the softest, smallest, 11 million dollar player and actually addressing a big need which is the D core with the money. He's walking at year end may as well get whatever they can for him.

Matthews and Nylander are more than enough talent to build a forward group around and these are players that bring it when it matters most. No contender can have an 11 million dollar winger that avoids contact when the going gets tough. Simply doesnt work in a cap world. Maybe if the team is built a very specific way where he is the only player like that and they have a big heavy D core and center position but the leafs dont.


This actually isnt terrible. Its realistic.

I watch this team so I see Marner for what he is, an elite talent.

What I see is dead cap space in Bertuzzi, Brodie, Samsonov, Kampft, these are all terrible contracts for players that absolutely suck. I'd rather deal with improving that than giving away Marner.

Leafs weren't even soft this year they were more physical than Boston, it was the series with the most hits. Beniot abused Pasta, Domi threw Marchand around like a rag doll. It's lazy to call this team soft.

I love how people are so lazy they beat their chest about repeating the narrative that they receive from media. NPCs at it's finest.

Leafs have caproom this off season already, they are fine and who are these unicorns we're getting if Marner and Tavares came off the cap right now? Funny no one ever has the sack to name a few names.

Spare me your reply until you have something intelligent to say. I'm tired of this 'Just run it back then' suggest a real alternative if this is your position.

 

[VivaLasVegas]

I watch this team so I see Marner for what he is, an elite talent.

And yet there are claims made on other threads by Leafs posters to the effect that a large percentage of the Leaf fans want Marner gone. Why is that?

 

[Meichel Kane]

I watch this team so I see Marner for what he is, an elite talent.

Then keep him?

 

[seanlinden]

I watch this team so I see Marner for what he is, an elite talent.

What I see is dead cap space in Bertuzzi, Brodie, Samsonov, Kampft, these are all terrible contracts for players that absolutely suck. I'd rather deal with improving that than giving away Marner.

Leafs weren't even soft this year they were more physical than Boston, it was the series with the most hits. Beniot abused Pasta, Domi threw Marchand around like a rag doll. It's lazy to call this team soft.

I love how people are so lazy they beat their chest about repeating the narrative that they receive from media. NPCs at it's finest.

Leafs have caproom this off season already, they are fine and who are these unicorns we're getting if Marner and Tavares came off the cap right now? Funny no one ever has the sack to name a few names.

Spare me your reply until you have something intelligent to say. I'm tired of this 'Just run it back then' suggest a real alternative is this is your position.

The problem with the Leafs is twofold.

#1. Is that they rely far too much on their "core group" of offensive players, and lack accountability down the lineup.

#2. Is that their top-end talent thrives and relies upon open ice; and those kinds of opportunities tend to disappear come playoff time; especially in a tight-checking series like Boston.

The only way to "fix" #1 is to get rid of at least 1 of the big 3/4. The Coyle's, Zacha's , Debrusk's, Frederic's, Geekie's, JvRs, Heinen's of the world all need to have accountability and be an integral part of the team's gameplan night in and night out.

Sure, Domi and Bert were decent in the playoffs, but it was very clear that they were playing as "accessories" unitl Matthews went down, and then went back to that when Matthews came back.

So long as you have those big 3, the Domi's, Bertuzzi's, Brodie's, Kampf's of the world will be accessories; and you'll never be perfect in spending that kind of money.

#2. Can also likely be fixed by a Mitch Marner trade... simply because he is a perimeter player that thrives on open ice; much like Nylander, and much like Matthews would prefer to be (although he is more than capable at a cycle game). If you can replace him with guys that score their goals in the dirty areas, this will be a team much better equipped for playoff-style hockey.

 

[McHelpus]

Darnell Nurse is your man

 

[Leafsfanperson]

And yet there are claims made on other threads by Leafs posters to the effect that a large percentage of the Leaf fans want Marner gone. Why is that?

Awww are the internet fan sad and cynical?

And they they said it on the tv so it's true.....

How do you dress yourself each day? Dude....

 

[Leafsfanperson]

Then keep him?

I'd like to.

The problem with the Leafs is twofold.

#1. Is that they rely far too much on their "core group" of offensive players, and lack accountability down the lineup.

#2. Is that their top-end talent thrives and relies upon open ice; and those kinds of opportunities tend to disappear come playoff time; especially in a tight-checking series like Boston.

The only way to "fix" #1 is to get rid of at least 1 of the big 3/4. The Coyle's, Zacha's , Debrusk's, Frederic's, Geekie's, JvRs, Heinen's of the world all need to have accountability and be an integral part of the team's gameplan night in and night out.

Sure, Domi and Bert were decent in the playoffs, but it was very clear that they were playing as "accessories" unitl Matthews went down, and then went back to that when Matthews came back.

So long as you have those big 3, the Domi's, Bertuzzi's, Brodie's, Kampf's of the world will be accessories; and you'll never be perfect in spending that kind of money.

#2. Can also likely be fixed by a Mitch Marner trade... simply because he is a perimeter player that thrives on open ice; much like Nylander, and much like Matthews would prefer to be (although he is more than capable at a cycle game). If you can replace him with guys that score their goals in the dirty areas, this will be a team much better equipped for playoff-style hockey.

Lol.

This is a long winded way to say blow it up.

Again the 'Core Four' are the only ones accountable, even when they deliver it's never enough and everyone else on the team gets a pass on outright sucking because they don't make 10 million. It's shallow analysis.

I'll over simply it, a bunch of game 7s, Leafs would have been fine if they got a few more saves but they keep being cheap in net.

As for the 'fix everything with a Marner trade'? Really, look at this thread, 'maybe if the Leafs retain someone might be willing to take Mitch'. Nah, not begging anyone do 'do us a favor' just extend the 100 point winger and figure out the rest over the course of the next 8 years. Instead people want to panic and ship him to be short sighted reactionary cause Leafs Nation tummy still hurts after a pwayoff loss

'Playoff style hockey' is a cope, the style of play in the playoff is 100% based on the matchup. Boston will play different than Edmonton. Mitch is a snakebite Boston and Florida, just like every other superstar those teams play. You don't give up on a superstar/cornerstone because he didn't dominate in a series no forward on either team dominated.

A true hockey deal for Mitch, sure I'm open to that but giving him away because a section of Leafs Nation are straight up emotional cry babies? Nah.

 

[Maple Leaf]

is Marner that bad? I admit to only watching about a period and a half of that series.

But yet all the prognosticators have him on Team Canada for the Bettman Cup.

Which is it? He’s a bum or a keeper?

He is both

 

[VivaLasVegas]

Awww are the internet fan sad and cynical?

And they they said it on the tv so it's true.....

How do you dress yourself each day? Dude....

Just go to the "Mitchin' Marner" thread in the playoffs forum and there are lots of long-time Leafs posters who say they no longer want Marner around. Ditto the Leafs boards. Those are Leafs fans who watch the "elite" player every single game and want Marner gone.

But if you don't like internet fans, why are you even here?

 

[Legion34]

Then keep him?

The problem is
1.) if we move off 3 11 million plus players. He has to go
2.) he may want to move on. Lots of speculation he was willing to accept a trade last year. It’s still on going now

 

[Leafsfanperson]

Just go to the "Mitchin' Marner" thread in the playoffs forum and there are lots of long-time Leafs posters who say they no longer want Marner around. Ditto the Leafs boards. Those are Leafs fans who watch the "elite" player every single game and want Marner gone.

But if you don't like internet fans, why are you even here?

Cause it's hilarious to me.

Trade Mitch cause some fanz on deh forum is big m/sad.

 

[seanlinden]

This is a long winded way to say blow it up.

Again the 'Core Four' are the only ones accountable, even when they deliver it's never enough and everyone else on the team gets a pass on outright sucking because they don't make 10 million. It's shallow analysis.

I'll over simply it, a bunch of game 7s, Leafs would have been fine if they got a few more saves but they keep being cheap in net.

As for the 'fix everything with a Marner trade'? Really, look at this thread, 'maybe if the Leafs retain someone might be willing to take Mitch'. Nah, not begging anyone do 'do us a favor' just extend the 100 point winger and figure out the rest over the course of the next 8 years. Instead people want to panic and ship him to be short sighted reactionary cause Leafs Nation tummy still hurts after a pwayoff loss

'Playoff style hockey' is a cope, the style of play in the playoff is 100% based on the matchup. Boston will play different than Edmonton. Mitch is a snakebite Boston and Florida, just like every other superstar those teams play. You don't give up on a superstar/cornerstone because he didn't dominate in a series no forward on either team dominated.

A true hockey deal for Mitch, sure I'm open to that but giving him away because a section of Leafs Nation are straight up emotional cry babies? Nah.

To an extent, yes. The Leafs were equipped to go far in 2019, when they had absolutely ridiculous depth. Tavares, Matthews and Kadri down the middle. Wingers which inlcuded Nylander, Marner, Kapanen, Johnsson, Hyman, Marleau & Brown. The way they were able to achieve that, is because Matthews and Marner were both on their ELCs.

The Leafs knew they were killing that by giving the big money to Matthews & Marner instead of bridge deals. In foresight, it honestly wasn't the worst idea, with projected cap increases, those deals should have "turned green" around year 2 or 3, and been incredible deals towards the end.

Obviously, COVID happened, and that stagnated salaries around the NHL. It took until 23-24 for Mackinnon to make Matthews the 4th highest pair player in the league, and that only lasted 1 year before Matthews is now overpaid as the league's most expensive player. For Marner, even today, he's still overpaid, his comparables are mostly in the $9m range and hasn't neccessarily grown all that much from the 94-point player he was in 2018-19.

With Nylander now being overpaid as well (how Treliving managed to think giivng him more than his buddy Pasta was appropriate, boggles my mind) , barring Marner signing an absolute sweetheart deal ($9m), the Leafs would have to knowingly sign up for years of disappointments before the cap rises enough to allow depth to fill out. You could make an arguement that was a reasonable approach when these guys were 21-22. They're now 27-28, in the prime of their careers, and as their cap hit %s decline, so will their likely productivity.

There's also the much more basic challenge of fit & style. There's an old saying in hockey to win the cup you have to beat a fast team, you have to beat a big team, you have to beat a solid defensive team, and you have beat one that's going to try and beat the living daylights out of you.... something about basically that you have to be able to beat 4 different types of teams, which is 100% true.

Those 3 guys all excel in the same type of game -- one where there's open ice and where there are odd man rushes. They were equipped to beat Tampa because Tampa is happy to play that style. While Matthews is quite adaptable to a cycle-based game, Nylander and Marner aren't really suited for it. You can't have $24m of wingers that lose effectiveness against specific teams/styles.

 

[dumbdick]

An $11M soon-to-be-UFA with a full NMC who isn't good in the playoffs.

He's a great talent but Leafs fans should prepare for disappointment on any return.

 

[4thline]

An $11M soon-to-be-UFA with a full NMC who isn't good in the playoffs.

He's a great talent but Leafs fans should prepare for disappointment on any return.

Barring Ferris giving his client bad advice to further built his reputation as a hard ass, all of the bolded are linked.

If he's willing to waive his NMC for a given team, he's probably willing to extend, if the team is willing to extend him at a number he excepts, they clearly value him highly and aren't troubled by his playoff foibles. That list of mutually agreeable destinations might be small, and that will limit things, but there's no reason to expect outside of the range of recent/semi recent Forward trade & signs

Examples of recent trade and signs (extension done within days, unsigned RFA or 1 year from UFA only)

• Turris for Girard, Kamenev, 2nd
• *Stone for Brannstrom, Lindberg, 2nd
• Pacioretty for Suzuki, Tatar, 2nd
• Debrincat for 1st, 4th, Kubalik, Sebrango
• Dubois for Vilardi, Iafallo, Kupari, 2nd
• *Meier+5th (and stuff) for 1st, 2nd, 7th, Zetterlund, Mukhamadullin, Okhotiuk
• *Horvat for 1st, Beauvillier, Raty
• Tkachuk for Huberdeau, Weegar, 1st

* denotes deadline(ish) trade

 

[Forge]

Meier+5th (and stuff) for 1st, 2nd, 7th, Zetterlund, Mukhamadullin, Okhotiuk

You got it all wrong. Timo was the "stuff" added for the devils to land Hatakka