Miscellaneous NHL Talk XLIV: Draft Lottery Onward

[Curufinwe]

Burke makes Niskanen sound like Chris Therrien, and also forgets Provorov was really good before with Ghost or Sanheim on his right.

I’d also bet a lot of money Burke doesn’t realize how much Sanheim plays or how important he is leading the 2nd pairing.

 

[Magua]

Yes.

Yes.

You could make an argument that Niskanen has been their most effective defenseman this season. Provorov’s success is tied to that to some degree, no? It’s not denigrating previous partners — whose merits are separate — to say his best full season as a pro is partially indebted to Niskanen. Doesn’t have to be the exact narrative Burke is pushing for him to stumble on a plausible truth.

You could even argue that their best full pair in small sample this season was Sanheim-Niskanen. But he’s been a common link.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

His reasoning is trite crap, but Niskanen doesn’t get nearly enough credit around here. As I’ve been saying, he was probably their best Defenseman this year. Remember that I was against the trade. I’m directly saying that I was even more wrong than some others think.

I also didn’t think Provorov-Sanheim was particularly effective, but that’s another issue entirely.

*Edit* I was apparently slower to post than Niskanen skating in a straight line, but he’s made it work.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

It's a pretty simplistic comment from Burke and I don't see him expanding an answer to say why he believes it, but Niskanen is a defenseman type that would allow Provy to act more aggressively moving up ice because he is not likely to do it himself.

Provy obviously had success with others, like Ghost, but Provy would be the less aggressive partner in that pair.

So the comment has merit and it doesn't mean that he can only be successful with a guy like Niskanen.

Burke is a dinosaur, but I'm not sure what is outrageous about his comment beyond "turning him into the player he has" without more context and/or specifics.

 

[Striiker]

You could make an argument that Niskanen has been their most effective defenseman this season. Provorov’s success is partially tied to that, no? It’s not denigrating previous partners to say his best full season as a pro is indebted to that.

I disagree because of the specific wording he used, which I think is different from what you’re saying.

He said “Matt Niskanen is the reason Ivan Provorov has turned into the player he has”. To me, that’s implying that Niskanen has changed how Provorov plays or made him improve as an individual. I don’t think that’s the case.

I agree with what you said, though, that Niskanen had a large impact on Provorov's success (aka results) but I don’t think he’s actually changed him as a player.

So again, I don’t think you and Burke are talking about the same thing. What I’m saying has nothing to do with Niskanens capabilities as a partner or his performance this year.

 

[Chinatown88]

Wait it's not cool to hate Brian Burke anymore?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Wait it's not cool to hate Brian Burke anymore?

I don’t mind him as a personality but I don’t really take anything he says serious in regards to his hockey analysis.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

Wait it's not cool to hate Brian Burke anymore?

Absolutely not. Screw him and screw Darcy Tucker too. Tucker didn’t actually say anything, but thinking about Burke reminded me of his existence.

 

[Chinatown88]

Absolutely not. Screw him and screw Darcy Tucker too. Tucker didn’t actually say anything, but thinking about Burke reminded me of his existence.

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Wait it's not cool to hate Brian Burke anymore?

His hair looked pretty great when I saw him at the Super Bowl this year.

 

[Striiker]

His reasoning is trite crap, but Niskanen doesn’t get nearly enough credit around here. As I’ve been saying, he was probably their best Defenseman this year. Remember that I was against the trade. I’m directly saying that I was even more wrong than some others think.

I also didn’t think Provorov-Sanheim was particularly effective, but that’s another issue entirely.

*Edit* I was apparently slower to post than Niskanen skating in a straight line, but he’s made it work.

I think both Niskanen and Sanheim were better than Provorov this year. (before anyone has a meltdown, that doesn't mean Provorov was/is bad)

Both of them outproduced him at 5v5 and his point totals are only higher because of crazy lucky PP production. Without those points I don't think his season is looked at so positively. We've seen how various players raw point totals can seriously warp evaluations.

As far as possession stats go, obviously his will be heavily influenced by Niskanen's since they were together almost the whole year (and Niskanen's are actually better away from Provorov) and Sanheim's are right there with them, in spite of less favorable usage/teammates.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I think both Niskanen and Sanheim were better than Provorov this year. (before anyone has a meltdown, that doesn't mean Provorov was/is bad)

Both of them outproduced him at 5v5 and his point totals are only higher because of crazy lucky PP production. Without those points I don't think his season is looked at so positively. We've seen how various players raw point totals can seriously warp evaluations.

As far as possession stats go, obviously his will be heavily influenced by Niskanen's since they were together almost the whole year (and Niskanen's are actually better away from Provorov) and Sanheim's are right there with them, in spite of less favorable usage/teammates.

I think that Provorov is incredibly misunderstood among the fanbase as a whole. Ironically, he’s more flash than effectiveness in some ways. He’s also excellent in specific areas that usually lead to effectiveness. He’s a weird player.

I would say that Sanheim took a major offensive step this year, especially on Exits, and that his defensive game fell back a bit, but my opinion of the defensive effectiveness of his partners most of the year has been quite low and I struggle to be confident that I can contextualize that properly.

 

[Striiker]

I think that Provorov is incredibly misunderstood among the fanbase as a whole. Ironically, he’s more flash than effectiveness in some ways. He’s also excellent in specific areas that usually lead to effectiveness. He’s a weird player.

I would say that Sanheim took a major offensive step this year, especially on Exits, and that his defensive game fell back a bit, but my opinion of the defensive effectiveness of his partners most of the year has been quite low and I struggle to be confident that I can contextualize that properly.

I think people want to mentally fit him into a stereotypical 1D mold, but he doesn't quite fit all those desired stereotypes.

For example, people think he's this defense-first safety net, but when he's played with guys like Sanheim or Ghost it feels like they were usually the ones covering for when he was pinching or when he was joining the rush, not the other way around. And that isn't automatically a bad thing, since I think that's where he's best offensively by far (I usually don't like his play when they're set up in the offensive zone, especially on the PP), but for some reason the way people talk about him hasn't evolved to match what we're watching on the ice.

Another example is the idea that Provorov is some perfectly consistent player who can be paired with anyone and it'll just work, when in reality he's struggled a lot when not paired with another top pair quality partner. More so than others who were paired with the same lesser D partners.

But the praise is constant and his usage only grows, so the reputation remains the same. He's still a very good player, but he's just not the clear #1 best defensemen on this team and he never has been.

 

[Stizzle]

Yes, Niskanen has helped Provorov. No doubt. Like @Striiker said, Burke's comment about making Provorov the player he has, is absurd.

The other obvious point is the Niskanen addition came at the same time as a total coaching overhaul. We went from a legit league worst coach to competency. Also an overhaul in organizational culture to some degree. A lot of stuff that adds up.

Burke flat out granting the success of Provorov soley on Niskanen is not seeing the big picture. Niskanen is a great partner, but we have a lot of moving parts being jumbled simultaneously this year.

Burke will be Burke. We all know his old man brain is just seeing a young player improve when being paired with a respected vet and assuming only a singular conclusion is possible.

I will also push back on another thing brought up ITT. When 9-53 was a pair. It was 53 actually the less aggressive of the two. Ghost was playing the "safe" role imo. Provorov was the one free to roam.

Edit: I see @Striiker already said the same thing about the 9-53 pair. I hate agreeing with him so much. It feels dirty.

 

[Striiker]

Edit: I see @Striiker already said the same thing about the 9-53 pair. I hate agreeing with him so much. It feels dirty.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

I will also push back on another thing brought up ITT. When 9-53 was a pair. It was 53 actually the less aggressive of the two. Ghost was playing the "safe" role imo. Provorov was the one free to roam.

In the offensive zone, I recall Provy floating low and rotating in more often than Ghost when they were a pair, but not so much when it came to getting the puck out of the defensive zone and through the neutral zone.

I cannot find the data I am looking for, but I think Ghost had more zone entry attempts per 60 and successful zone entries per 60 when they were together.

Happy to be proven wrong, since I can't find the data anyway.

 

[Tripod]

I

Both of them outproduced him at 5v5 and his point totals are only higher because of crazy lucky PP production. Without those points I don't think his season is looked at so positively.

So now PP points don't count?

 

[TCTC]

Of all the partners Provy has had so far Niskanen has been the best fit. Their styles complement each other really well.
That's why I never liked the Provorov-Sanheim pairing. There was no chemistry. They shouldn't be on the same pair. They should both be leading a pair.

Finding a young version of Niskanen is going to be a challenge for Fletcher.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

 

[kudymen]

Damn millennials, unable to be loyal to their employer

 

[Tripod]

 

[Hollywood Cannon]

Lakers by 72.

 

[Tripod]

Lakers by 72.

 

[CanadianFlyer88]

Move along.