Confirmed Trade: [MIN/TBL] Pat Maroon (20% retained) and Max Cajkovic for 2024 7th round pick

[JTBF81]

Yep. Hedman and Stamkos are close to seeing a decline. (Hedman already has)

I’m not sure how bad they’ll be, but the cup window is closing rapidly.

Hedman was playing through injury most of last season, but looked better near the end. If he addressed the injury with the hip during the offseason, he should be fine. The main core outside of him and Stamkos(who are 32 and 33) are still in their mid to late 20's(aside from Kuch, who turned 30 a couple weeks ago). The window is not "rapidly closing". The depth has taken a few losses, but most have been expected due to the flat cap. As long as the newer additions fill their roles, and Vasy gets back to what he usually is, the team should be fine. Age is not a major problem yet.

 

[rynryn]

Wild fan I expected them to get a tough, high character guy after losing two identity guys this offseason. nothing to complain about here.

 

[Farmboy Patty]

Good locker room guy. Knows what it takes to win. 4th line minutes. Career fading in a few years.

Maroon is a guy who knows his role and is good at it. Fighting is overrated, although I love that part of the game and it has an effect in games during the regular season. His play off performances have been solid, and he’s got the rings to prove it. He’s experienced which is an important ingredients to have in the locker room.

Hedman was playing through injury most of last season, but looked better near the end. If he addressed the injury with the hip during the offseason, he should be fine. The main core outside of him and Stamkos(who are 32 and 33) are still in their mid to late 20's(aside from Kuch, who turned 30 a couple weeks ago). The window is not "rapidly closing". The depth has taken a few losses, but most have been expected due to the flat cap. As long as the newer additions fill their roles, and Vasy gets back to what he usually is, the team should be fine. Age is not a major problem yet.

This. The are still very much a contender, and the vets should be hungry for another cup. I wouldn’t underestimate them.

 

[DFC]

No you’re missing the point. I expect him to cost control within the cap where he can retain depth players. There is no doubt the first cup was a situational success mainly because Shattenkirk was cheap, Bogo was cheap Yanni gad not got a huge raise and Coleman was way underpaid as well. But it losing that entire line only extended it one year more then more depth gone got to the cup final and the fatigue excuse appeared that loose to an inferior Leafs team in the first round. Granted alit if that was on Vasi but what if he had a competent back up all year?


What I refer to is prior to the injury. But since you brought it up who thinks he will recover from that and be a faster skater????

Again, you're asking for perfection though. You're also taking into account his faults without giving any credit for his successes. I mean, we lost an entire line of players because two of them got overpaid elsewhere and we couldn't offer Seattle enough not to take the other. How do you expect to replace those players with the amount of money losing them freed up?

You don't like bridge deals, but the reality is they were a big part in two cups. We probably could have given Point term rather than a bridge deal, but the extra money we saved was spent, again, on two cups.

Since then he's managed to bring in Brandon Hagel at a cost, trade-wise, that looks pretty cheap in hindsight. Nick Paul has been much better than Mathieu Joseph was for us. Perry was an impact player in the 2022 playoffs.

He's doing what he can with what he has to work with. Have their been miss-steps? Of course. But if you're asking for perfection, again, you're gonna be disappointed in the end, no matter who's GM. In a lot of ways we are paying for how well the stars aligned in 2020. The idea of keeping anything close to that team together, or replacing those guys with equal talent, is just a pipe dream.

 

[jfhabs]

This is what really makes me laugh about all the idiots who are constantly saying "lol bubble cup 2020 hurrdurr". Tampa has gotten f***ed TWICE by the salary cap following championship seasons. 2004 Cup -> start of salary cap era and then 2020/2021 Cups -> stagnant cap that sees us having to shed our depth fast than we would have under normal cap growth.

It f***ed Tampa just like it f***ed any teams they were competing against...

 

[AndreRoy]

Tampa piling up 7 rounders like crazy

We’re desperate for another Palat.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Maroon is a guy who knows his role and is good at it. Fighting is overrated, although I love that part of the game and it has an effect in games during the regular season. His play off performances have been solid, and he’s got the rings to prove it. He’s experienced which is an important ingredients to have in the locker room.


This. The are still very much a contender, and the vets should be hungry for another cup. I wouldn’t underestimate them.

They aren't contenders. Maroon has gone to a better team again.

 

[JTBF81]

They aren't contenders. Maroon has gone to a better team again.

Lol, the takes on here re: Tampa's supposed demise are comedy gold.

 

[Byrddog]

Maroon is a guy who knows his role and is good at it. Fighting is overrated, although I love that part of the game and it has an effect in games during the regular season. His play off performances have been solid, and he’s got the rings to prove it. He’s experienced which is an important ingredients to have in the locker room.


This. The are still very much a contender, and the vets should be hungry for another cup. I wouldn’t underestimate them.

Honestly I’m curious how you come to that conclusion? The overwhelming majority of the offense is on Point, Kuch, Stammer and Hagel. Last year the team scored 280 goals the year prior 285 in a shortened year. Those four are going to need 200 goals to have a shot at being competitive much less than being called a contender.

 

[Byrddog]

Again, you're asking for perfection though. You're also taking into account his faults without giving any credit for his successes. I mean, we lost an entire line of players because two of them got overpaid elsewhere and we couldn't offer Seattle enough not to take the other. How do you expect to replace those players with the amount of money losing them freed up?

You don't like bridge deals, but the reality is they were a big part in two cups. We probably could have given Point term rather than a bridge deal, but the extra money we saved was spent, again, on two cups.

Since then he's managed to bring in Brandon Hagel at a cost, trade-wise, that looks pretty cheap in hindsight. Nick Paul has been much better than Mathieu Joseph was for us. Perry was an impact player in the 2022 playoffs.

He's doing what he can with what he has to work with. Have their been miss-steps? Of course. But if you're asking for perfection, again, you're gonna be disappointed in the end, no matter who's GM. In a lot of ways we are paying for how well the stars aligned in 2020. The idea of keeping anything close to that team together, or replacing those guys with equal talent, is just a pipe dream.

Maybe I am expecting more from him than he has produced but not perfection. I do think Paul is a lot more favorable than Joseph. Hagel is not as versital as I would like when he is away from Point and Kuch he was not effective, is that because of Cirelli or is it on Hagel?

Of course you have to replace players over time with a plan. The example of two guys that fit does no way excuse the missed opportunity. With a core this special locked up you have to have a plan for depth scoring and defense past the top 4. JBB’s path has weakened the team .

Going in to the year the only thing I see that has been disproven is the excuse of too much hockey over the last three years and they are fatigued.

Now what I expect we see in preseason the youngsters and new guys will get all the attention. Once again not trying opening day lines letting them play together and develop chemistry. This will result in excuses that they need time to remove the rust and get the chemistry. This probably takes you to November when we realize why we got these guys so cheap. With the roster now we have got to have the old Vasi and Hedman from day one . In not even positive we get that after last year. While looking at the remainder of the East much has been done to improve other team and the kids in Buffalo and New Jersey are a year older. While we had to yet again live thru another subtraction summer. Looking forward next summer will be the same. The cap will probably stay the same yet again.

Now someone used the word hyperbole, I do not think this is exaggerated at all much less than hyperbole. It is the reality of where the roster is. I do hope some of the players suprise me and play way better than they have the last few years. But experience or history does not support it. The loss of Killorn is going to hurt on the scoresheet Maroons loss will affect the locker room. And the Maroon trade makes no sense he had 1 year left a 1 mil. It’s not like the 800k is going to be the difference.

 

[bossram]

Except Maroon was basically a 12th/13th F by the end of last season, Cole was a 5/6 for them, and they have brought in replacements for everyone but Killorn, who was likely gone anyway and unable to be replaced at that price point. Tampa is also likely not quite finished, as they should have enough space for one additional middle 6 depth F. The primary core remains intact, so some great Tampa decline seems doubtful. The depth has taken a hit, but they should still be a playoff team and a very tough out as long as Vasy is back to form this year(the whole team also finally getting a longer off season for the first time in 4 seasons also should help). The only surprising departure was the team losing both Killorn and Colton, as most surrounding the team figured one would be kept. Losing Maroon, Cole, and Perry is far from catastrophic.

It's pretty obvious I'm talking mostly about players other than Maroon. I also didn't mention Perry. Yeah, I also think they're insignificant in the scheme of things.

By average TOI, Cole played top-four minutes and had very strong defensive results. His performance was not replaced.

Colton is a good 3rd liner that was not replaced

Killorn is a top-six winger that was not replaced.

Do I think with TB's core, they'll still be a good team? Yeah. Is it clear they're worse on paper compared to last year? Also yes. We can have a reasonable discussion and still accept reality.

 

[JTBF81]

Honestly I’m curious how you come to that conclusion? The overwhelming majority of the offense is on Point, Kuch, Stammer and Hagel. Last year the team scored 280 goals the year prior 285 in a shortened year. Those four are going to need 200 goals to have a shot at being competitive much less than being called a contender.

Lol,.because no one else but those 4 can be strong offensive contributors. As usual, your take on the team is as negatively warped as possible. Many Lightning fans may not be thrilled at losing both Colton and Killorn, but most of the roster turnover has been addressed pretty solidly. Also, as per usual, you completely discount Cirelli, not to mention what Paul, Jeannot or Sheary can bring, and assume, hilariously, that 4 players have to hit 50 goals each. Tampa is still very much a contender, provided Vasy and Hedman are back to normal and the new role players do what they're supposed to. Furthermore, your stats are inaccutate, as they scored 5 more goals in a regular length season in '21-'22, a gf/g difference of .07, 3.48 to 3.41, tying for #7 in tbe league. In the shortened season, they averaged a 3.21 hf/g pace over 56 games. The offense lost Palat last year and barely changed, lost the entire Goude/Coleman/Goodrow line the year before and improved in gf/g the next. Losing Killorn and Colton sucks, but there's plenty of offensive talent on the team; more than enough to be competitive and a contender.

 

[JTBF81]

It's pretty obvious I'm talking mostly about players other than Maroon. I also didn't mention Perry. Yeah, I also think they're insignificant in the scheme of things.

By average TOI, Cole played top-four minutes and had very strong defensive results. His performance was not replaced.

Colton is a good 3rd liner that was not replaced

Killorn is a top-six winger that was not replaced.

Do I think with TB's core, they'll still be a good team? Yeah. Is it clear they're worse on paper compared to last year? Also yes. We can have a reasonable discussion and still accept reality.

Tampa's top 4 is plenty fine with Hedman, Serg, Perbix and Cernak. De Haan may not be as strong as Cole, but he should do fine as 3LD. Sheary is Colton's expected replacement, or, if he excels, perhaps will be seen as Killorn's. The acquisition of Jeannot was also done with this eventuality in mind, and he as well will help with both of their departures. Tampa should also be able to have around 2-2.5 for one additional middle 6 F, even more if they send Logan Brown down and are willing to go with a 21 player roster. The depth took another hit, but far too many on here seem to think losing a couple complimentary players, something Tampa has now dealt with each of the last 3 offseasons, indicates they are, "no longer a contender", having a "rapidly closing window", and other funny statements.

 

[Pebble live]

Always a little sad seeing a team's contention window closing. Feels very similar to the end of Chicago's run. Another season of two of decent hockey where they will get into the playoffs but not be a favourite. Not much in the way of futures to sustain it much longer either.

Feels like we're approaching the end of another era in the NHL. Excited to see the shift though.

 

[MattM92]

It's pretty obvious I'm talking mostly about players other than Maroon. I also didn't mention Perry. Yeah, I also think they're insignificant in the scheme of things.

By average TOI, Cole played top-four minutes and had very strong defensive results. His performance was not replaced.

Colton is a good 3rd liner that was not replaced

Killorn is a top-six winger that was not replaced.

Do I think with TB's core, they'll still be a good team? Yeah. Is it clear they're worse on paper compared to last year? Also yes. We can have a reasonable discussion and still accept reality.

Cole -> de Haan
Colton -> Sheary
Killorn -> ???
Bellemare -> Glendening
Perry -> Archibald

It's inarguable the bottom 6 got faster and younger. Will they be as productive? Maybe not, especially with the downgrade from Perry to Archibald scoring-wise, but the bottom 6 is certainly going to be faster and better at forechecking. Colton and Sheary are basically a wash statistically with Colton being more physical and Sheary being a better forechecker. Calvin de Haan is a fine Cole replacement, he's a solid 3rd pairing guy. Only hole we still have is Killorn's spot who we still have a few options to fill with.

I don't really think we are just objectively worse than last season (pending a final signing for a middle 6 winger).

 

[JTBF81]

Always a little sad seeing a team's contention window closing. Feels very similar to the end of Chicago's run. Another season of two of decent hockey where they will get into the playoffs but not be a favourite. Not much in the way of futures to sustain it much longer either.

Feels like we're approaching the end of another era in the NHL. Excited to see the shift though.

Not really the case at all, but okay. None of the core is older than 33 this season, and most are mid to late 20's. They may not be odds on favorites anymore, but to say their window is closing isn't that accurate. With the cap going up as well sooner rather than later, Tampa will be able to start spending more on the supporting cast again in ufa. With good management, they should still be realistic contenders for at least 3 more years easily.

 

[57special]

I expect Maroon to be a lesser fighter than Reaves, but a slightly better player otherwise. Since he also has a 500K less cap hit,nvm only a one year term, I’m on board for MN, since it was pretty obvious that Guerin wanted to replace the grit and toughness leaving the team in Reaves and Dumba.

 

[HawksDub89]

Hedman was playing through injury most of last season, but looked better near the end. If he addressed the injury with the hip during the offseason, he should be fine. The main core outside of him and Stamkos(who are 32 and 33) are still in their mid to late 20's(aside from Kuch, who turned 30 a couple weeks ago). The window is not "rapidly closing". The depth has taken a few losses, but most have been expected due to the flat cap. As long as the newer additions fill their roles, and Vasy gets back to what he usually is, the team should be fine. Age is not a major problem yet.

The depth has taken significant losses and Hedman and Stammer aging will make things tough.

TBL are one of the best run orgs in the nhl (maybe the best). But the salary cap catches up to everyone eventually.

I don’t think they’ll be terrible or anything. But the days of them being cup contenders are coming to an end soon. I’d say two more cup runs. (Depending on health)

 

[bossram]

Tampa's top 4 is plenty fine with Hedman, Serg, Perbix and Cernak. De Haan may not be as strong as Cole, but he should do fine as 3LD. Sheary is Colton's expected replacement, or, if he excels, perhaps will be seen as Killorn's. The acquisition of Jeannot was also done with this eventuality in mind, and he as well will help with both of their departures. Tampa should also be able to have around 2-2.5 for one additional middle 6 F, even more if they send Logan Brown down and are willing to go with a 21 player roster. The depth took another hit, but far too many on here seem to think losing a couple complimentary players, something Tampa has now dealt with each of the last 3 offseasons, indicates they are, "no longer a contender", having a "rapidly closing window", and other funny statements.

Yeah, I didn't say any of that.

But they're losing useful players, and the quality coming back to replace them isn't equivalent. At some point, the roster attrition will lead to some kind of decline in the standings, although likely not a huge one.

 

[bossram]

Cole -> de Haan
Colton -> Sheary
Killorn -> ???
Bellemare -> Glendening
Perry -> Archibald

It's inarguable the bottom 6 got faster and younger. Will they be as productive? Maybe not, especially with the downgrade from Perry to Archibald scoring-wise, but the bottom 6 is certainly going to be faster and better at forechecking. Colton and Sheary are basically a wash statistically with Colton being more physical and Sheary being a better forechecker. Calvin de Haan is a fine Cole replacement, he's a solid 3rd pairing guy. Only hole we still have is Killorn's spot who we still have a few options to fill with.

I don't really think we are just objectively worse than last season (pending a final signing for a middle 6 winger).

I mean, that looks objectively much worse. Glendening is black hole. Sheary doesn't have the versatility of Colton. And CDH is much worse than Cole. Cole was playing top-four minutes for TB and CDH is more 6/7D territory. That's a downgrade. And obviously Killorn is gone.

I'm not saying TB will be bad. Not at all. But I have a hard time reconciling with TB fans who want to deny that they got worse at all.

 

[JTBF81]

Yeah, I didn't say any of that.

But they're losing useful players, and the quality coming back to replace them isn't equivalent. At some point, the roster attrition will lead to some kind of decline in the standings, although likely not a huge one.

Sheary and De Haan are close enough to Colton and Cole, who, in Cole's case, was also a 1 year fill in. The 4th line is a bit younger and faster from what they had been dealing with the past two years, and it remains to be seen if another F is added to further help with the loss of Killorn, or if they promote one from Syracuse. The comment about the different statements was more of a general one towards the majority of the comments in here, not you specifically.

Tampa has suffered losses each of the past three years, and the regular season offense has remained the same or actually improved slightly depending on the year. They had a bad stretch from their G, and the defense was a little weaker last year with Hedman's injury and adjusting to a couple of new dmen. The extra amount of hockey they had played over the past several season likely didn't help matters. The longer rest should help, and while the Atlantic is a tougher division, barring major injuries, I don't see any real reason why Tampa shouldn't finish top 3 again.

 

[Spurgeon]

Who knew Maroon for a 7th could generate so much discussion?

 

[bossram]

Sheary and De Haan are close enough to Colton and Cole, who, in Cole's case, was also a 1 year fill in. The 4th line is a bit younger and faster from what they had been dealing with the past two years, and it remains to be seen if another F is added to further help with the loss of Killorn, or if they promote one from Syracuse. The comment about the different statements was more of a general one towards the majority of the comments in here, not you specifically.

Tampa has suffered losses each of the past three years, and the regular season offense has remained the same or actually improved slightly depending on the year. They had a bad stretch from their G, and the defense was a little weaker last year with Hedman's injury and adjusting to a couple of new dmen. The extra amount of hockey they had played over the past several season likely didn't help matters. The longer rest should help, and while the Atlantic is a tougher division, barring major injuries, I don't see any real reason why Tampa shouldn't finish top 3 again.

To me it seems like TB fans are hugely underrating the downgrade from Cole to CDH. Cole played bonafide top-four minutes last season, with a skew toward tough competition. And came out with a strong impact on shot/chance suppression. CDH is just a pure depth defenseman at this point. He was healthy scratched pretty much the entirety of the post-deadline and playoffs by Carolina.

 

[JTBF81]

To me it seems like TB fans are hugely underrating the downgrade from Cole to CDH. Cole played bonafide top-four minutes last season, with a skew toward tough competition. And came out with a strong impact on shot/chance suppression. CDH is just a pure depth defenseman at this point. He was healthy scratched pretty much the entirety of the post-deadline and playoffs by Carolina.

Cole played 19 minutes a game on average. Tampa spread the time around more in part because they could and Hedman wasn't 100% the whole year. They didn't need to get a top 4 dman on the left, only a solid 3LD. De Haan is fine for the role, and should likely get around 15 minutes a night. Being scratched by a team with the defense of Carolina doesn't mean you're not a capable 3LD, as Carolina has arguably the best d-core in the entire league.

 

[bossram]

Cole played 19 minutes a game on average. Tampa spread the time around more in part because they could and Hedman wasn't 100% the whole year. They didn't need to get a top 4 dman on the left, only a solid 3LD. De Haan is fine for the role, and should likely get around 15 minutes a night. Being scratched by a team with the defense of Carolina doesn't mean you're not a capable 3LD, as Carolina has arguably the best d-core in the entire league.

Everything you said can be true, but doesn't refute the fact that CDH is a materially worse player than Cole.