Mikhail Grigorenko...future 3rd line center?

[Sabresfansince1980]

I don't see 14 players currently in the organization that are worth keeping on the roster over Grigorenko. For now, barring a trade, he's worth keeping and both he and Larsson can co-exist or even play on the same line. If Grigorenko keeps being good at the dot and Larsson keeps being less than good, they can flip as needed from C to W.

Larsson will be 23 when next season starts, and wasn't NHL ready one year ago at age 22. Grigorenko will be 21 when next season starts, and is just now showing he could belong at age 20. He's got as much to prove as anyone trying to push through from Rochester, but he's hardly a bust right now. He simply needs a year past his ELC, which is no fault of his own, and I fail to see how Buffalo can't manage that situation.

 

[mikemcburn]

I don't see 14 players currently in the organization that are worth keeping on the roster over Grigorenko. For now, barring a trade, he's worth keeping and both he and Larsson can co-exist or even play on the same line. If Grigorenko keeps being good at the dot and Larsson keeps being less than good, they can flip as needed from C to W.

Larsson will be 23 when next season starts, and wasn't NHL ready one year ago at age 22. Grigorenko will be 21 when next season starts, and is just now showing he could belong at age 20. He's got as much to prove as anyone trying to push through from Rochester, but he's hardly a bust right now. He simply needs a year past his ELC, which is no fault of his own, and I fail to see how Buffalo can't manage that situation.

That may be, but if TM's vision commentary is anything to go by, then there looks to be really only one spot in the top 9 for Girgorenko, Hodgson and Larsson to fight over - or to be shipped out because none of the three are 4th liners.

This presumes that Kane, Foligno, Girgensens, Ennis, Moulson and Gionta are all locks for top 9, and both Reinhart and McDavid/Eitchel are NHL ready by September. That's 8 of your top 9, so long exactly a lot of room for the other non 4th liner scrubs.

Meaning that whether or not Grigorenko is presently better than or projects to be better than 13 other guys maybe doesn't matter to the final call on his future with the Sabres. Wouldn't be surprised to see 2 of Grigorenko, Hodgson and Larsson packaged up and out, and while Grigorenko has his youth going for him, Larsson ain't exactly much older and has possibly proven more versatile, while Hodgson who is a proven top 6 producer has a contract made rather interesting (in a possibly difficult-to-deal way?) with this dismal season behind him....

I could see Grigorenko as the guy to trade (over Larsson) and who is easier to trade (over Hodgson).

EDIT: If I were any of these three and looking at the top 6 depth while still being so young myself, I might actually want a trade out, seeing a bigger potential for a bigger role with a team that has some top 6 minutes to give.

 

[OcAirlines]

I think that a lot of people are really underestimating how long a season can be and how frequent injuries are... You need more than just nine top-9 caliber players to keep your line-up filled with adequate talent over a whole season. Hell we are a team that has lacked forward-depth, especially center-depth, for years and we just had one of the worst offensive seasons in recent memory! And now that some of our forward prospects might finally be ready to take on bigger roles in the NHL, you instantly think that we have too many of them and want to get rid of them? That doesn't really make sense imho.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

That may be, but if TM's vision commentary is anything to go by, then there looks to be really only one spot in the top 9 for Girgorenko, Hodgson and Larsson to fight over - or to be shipped out because none of the three are 4th liners.

I don't think I've heard Murray be very definitive about these guys in a "top nine or bust" kind of way. Maybe that's what he thinks, but until I hear him say that or make a move to prove it, it seems very reasonable to me to keep at least one of these guys as a reserve FW because...

1) Foligno is not a lock for top nine.
2) Larsson is not a lock for 3C, although looking good.
3) "Top nine" doesn't mean "off the roster and no scoring depth".
4) Injuries.

Do you want grinders as the 13th and 14th FWs, or keep a skill guy that can be plugged into the top nine for the inevitable injury? There's just so much unproven talent on next season's roster, why limit your options? Hodgson is a "proven" player, but proven that he's a one-way guy that is bad at face-offs with a bad contract. Larsson and Grigorenko have varying levels of potential that put them above Hodgson's value (both on-ice and compared to their cost). I would prefer to wait on all of them, but if one has to go I'd move Hodgson first.

Moulson-Eichel-Ennis
Kane-Reinhart-Girgensons
Grigorenko-Larsson-Gionta
Deslauriers-Schaller-Foligno
Hodgson, XXXXX

That line-up won't solidify itself for a few weeks or months, but it seems to have a good mix of size or toughness, with possibly one more roster spot to fill (and I'm not thinking McCormick, Kaleta, Ellis, Dalpe, Varone, or D'Amigo).

 

[joshjull]

Folks

Lets stay on topic and away from the personal stuff

 

[Needles]

So, barring any trades:

Kane - "Vermette" - Eichel
Moulson - Girgensons - Ennis
Larsson - Grigorenko - Gionta
Foligno - "Brodziak" - Deslauriers

Let Reinhart play big minutes in Rochester with Fasching, Bailey & co. If any top9 centre gets injured, call him up. Let Grigorenko play with good players, develop and increase his value. Patience is a virtue. Eventually, someone will need a big center with great hands and good upside.

That being said, I'm all for the "Grigs + pieces for ROR" trade this offseason. Buffalo needs another 22-26yo solid NHLer to do the heavy lifting.

 

[RoofIt5hole]

I don't think I've heard Murray be very definitive about these guys in a "top nine or bust" kind of way. Maybe that's what he thinks, but until I hear him say that or make a move to prove it, it seems very reasonable to me to keep at least one of these guys as a reserve FW because...

1) Foligno is not a lock for top nine.
2) Larsson is not a lock for 3C, although looking good.
3) "Top nine" doesn't mean "off the roster and no scoring depth".
4) Injuries.

Do you want grinders as the 13th and 14th FWs, or keep a skill guy that can be plugged into the top nine for the inevitable injury? There's just so much unproven talent on next season's roster, why limit your options? Hodgson is a "proven" player, but proven that he's a one-way guy that is bad at face-offs with a bad contract. Larsson and Grigorenko have varying levels of potential that put them above Hodgson's value (both on-ice and compared to their cost). I would prefer to wait on all of them, but if one has to go I'd move Hodgson first.

Moulson-Eichel-Ennis
Kane-Reinhart-Girgensons
Grigorenko-Larsson-Gionta
Deslauriers-Schaller-Foligno
Hodgson, XXXXX

This is exactly the line up if envisioned, although I'd put Grigs T center and Larsson at wing on that third line.
Mike showed me a lot this season. He was very impressive towards the end of the season. I hate trading away young prospects unless you absolutely know what you're giving up. Even in a ROR deal I'd be reticent to give up Grigs at this point. Like the Boston Seguin trade, or the Yak trade, trading away Grigs could really burn us in the long run. Obviously Seguin & Yak were still rated higher at the time of the trade but still.. I certainly see a lot of potential with Grugs and he showed enough flashes of that toward the end of the year to make me want to keep him and see what he can do with a good team around him. Also, if we can't resign ROR obviously it's just not worth the gamble.

 

[mikemcburn]

I don't think I've heard Murray be very definitive about these guys in a "top nine or bust" kind of way. Maybe that's what he thinks, but until I hear him say that or make a move to prove it, it seems very reasonable to me to keep at least one of these guys as a reserve FW because...

To clarify for starters - my comment "none of the three are 4th liners" is my own assessment, I didn't mean to infer that TM had said anyone in particular was a top 9 or bust. *I* think each of those three - Larsson, Hodgson and Grigorenko - are top 9 on the Sabres or may as well ship out the asset to fill other holes.

I also think that each of them have too much potential value to merely keep on the 4th in reserve. Larsson & Grigorenko are way too young to sign as 4th depth "just in case something happens", and frankly the same goes to Hodgson who is still not near his prime and has two seasons of proven top 6 under the belt (plus a top 6 contract that would suck to see wasted for a 4th liner).

1) Foligno is not a lock for top nine.
2) Larsson is not a lock for 3C, although looking good.
3) "Top nine" doesn't mean "off the roster and no scoring depth".
4) Injuries.

Pretty sure TM has referred to Foligno as a key guy going forward, Nolan certainly did just last week when he called him a "guy to build around" who could get as high as the 2nd. I'd bet on neither TM or Nolan figuring that a core guy means a 4th line guy.

Didn't say that Larsson was a lock for anything, incl. 3C. But presuming Reinhart & McDavid/Eitchel are ready for 1C & 2C next season, Girgensens *is* flipped to wing, and Hodgson *is* shipped, then there is one spot in the top 9 for either a winger or a 3C. Larsson or Grigorenko would look good there I think?

Do you want grinders as the 13th and 14th FWs, or keep a skill guy that can be plugged into the top nine for the inevitable injury?

Me? What do I want? I want 4 lines of raw awesome skill mingled with defensive soundness and physical power. 6 Kanes and 6 McDavids sounds about right to me.

More seriously, sure, obviously, be great to have the luxury to keep a skilled guy in reserve on the 4th and with such a young roster on cheap contracts the Sabres even have some of that luxury. But plugging a skilled guy on the 4th isn't necessarily the best use of an asset regardless of the cap space, etc. issues.

I figure TM can do a lot better by trading one of the extra "skilled guy" to fill in other gaps (d, goal, part of a package for a star winger, etc.).

There's just so much unproven talent on next season's roster, why limit your options? Hodgson is a "proven" player, but proven that he's a one-way guy that is bad at face-offs with a bad contract. Larsson and Grigorenko have varying levels of potential that put them above Hodgson's value (both on-ice and compared to their cost). I would prefer to wait on all of them, but if one has to go I'd move Hodgson first.

Moulson-Eichel-Ennis
Kane-Reinhart-Girgensons
Grigorenko-Larsson-Gionta
Deslauriers-Schaller-Foligno
Hodgson, XXXXX

That line-up won't solidify itself for a few weeks or months, but it seems to have a good mix of size or toughness, with possibly one more roster spot to fill (and I'm not thinking McCormick, Kaleta, Ellis, Dalpe, Varone, or D'Amigo).

I'm of the take that Hodgson proved to be top 6 producer the last two seasons and this recent stretch has proven a great deal more, but that's another discussion.

Any which way, if you'd rather keep a skilled guy on the 4th for reserve rather than trade him, then you'd be looking to key Hodgson in favour of one of Deslauriers-Schaller-Foligno.

Gionta, in my opinion, is another hole going forward. I realize he had a good run at the end of the season, but for most of the year only his "leadership" appeared to be maybe be useful in the top 9 and really, his productivity toward the end had a great deal to do with getting top 3 minutes and 1st pp unit time - opportunities and ice time he's not likely to get next season. Me, I'd plug him on the 4th and PK and hope to squeeze in an early retirement party after the 2016 draft.

No way that Moulson & Ennis are both winging the 1st line over Kane. Just don't see it. I choke on Moulson (who, incidentally, was no better than Hodgson either defensively or offensively this year, but did get the unearned ice time to look good in the last run), and love Ennis for what he is, but neither hold up to Kane and I'm really curious to see if power-forward Girgensens exceeds them both as a winger next season too...

I'd split up Kane & Girgensens too, spread the power.

Kane - McDavid/Eitchel - XXX
XXX - Reinhard - Girgensens
XXX - Larsson/Grigorenko - Larsson/Grigorenko
Foligno - Varone/Schaller - Gionta

You could plug Ennis, Hodgson and Moulson into any one of those XXX spots and have 3 solid lines, defensively and offensively. Then skip having a 4th line of plugs altogether too.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Roof it - I can easily see flipping Grigorenko and Larsson from C to W as needed, either in camp or during the season, or during a game. I like the odds that both players could play either position.

Mike - Wasn't suggesting you said some of those things, I just went on trying to back up some of my points in a general way. To be more clear on one thing, I wouldn't put any of Larsson, Grigorenko, or Hodgson on the 4th line unless other factors kicked in. I'd use the 13th or 14th FW spots to keep them on the roster, and be able to plug them in if someone is ineffective or injured. Their is no number crunch that would prevent this, so it seems like a good option to me until these guys establish themselves.

Anyway...I guess we both see several possibilities for Grigorenko. The rest of the discussion is more suited for the roster speculation thread, so I'll take it there.

 

[mikemcburn]

Roof it - I can easily see flipping Grigorenko and Larsson from C to W as needed, either in camp or during the season, or during a game. I like the odds that both players could play either position.

Mike - Wasn't suggesting you said some of those things, I just went on trying to back up some of my points in a general way. To be more clear on one thing, I wouldn't put any of Larsson, Grigorenko, or Hodgson on the 4th line unless other factors kicked in. I'd use the 13th or 14th FW spots to keep them on the roster, and be able to plug them in if someone is ineffective or injured. Their is no number crunch that would prevent this, so it seems like a good option to me until these guys establish themselves.

Anyway...I guess we both see several possibilities for Grigorenko. The rest of the discussion is more suited for the roster speculation thread, so I'll take it there.

Totally get/got you on the lack of cap issue providing some luxury room. Personally I'd like to keep all three of that crew and see what shakes out, but from the players' perspective I could see how each of them may preer to be shipped into an opportunity that is less crowded in the top 6. Maybe not so much this next season (who knows if Reinhart/20151st will really be ready for 1C/2C locks anyway), but for 2016/2017 and on ward.

Returning to the Grigorenko piece only, I'd like to see him as the 3C, but if he pans out to his potential then it'd suck to see him locked there because the Sabres are fortunate enough to have Reinhart/20151st as well.

EDIT: another reason for shipping out Hodgson rather than either Larsson or Grigorenko, btw, is that I'm not so sure he's truly as adaptable to playing center or wing. He had a brief stretch with good results on wing (worlds last year), but any guy can look good in a role for a brief stretch (lots of "super stars for a week" settled nicely into grinder and overseas spots for the balance of their careers) and for the whole of this season if Hodgson wasn't at center he was simply serviceable. What part of that is the position, the linemate quality, and the overall confidence, who knows). Though I guess neither Larsson or Girgorenko have proven to be equally effective on wing or center yet too.

 

[Orvald]

Kane - Mcdavid - Eriksson
Moulson - Reinhart - Ennis
Foligno - Grigorenko - Girgensons
Deslauriers - Larsson - stempniak
McCormick - Gionta

Sign stempniak as ufa, trade with boston
Eriksson + marc savards contract for our 2nd rounder, hodgson + 2 low tier prospects.

Bogosian - Sekera
Ristolainen - Gorges
Pysyk - mcCabe
weber

Zadorov will replace Gorges is he doesn't recover from surgery, otherwise he'll begin in rochester. Sekera as our UFA signing.

Enroth
Lindback.

Not to sure what will happen with our goalie situation, but I expect on of them to be back.

 

[sabresEH]

Kane - Mcdavid - Eriksson
Moulson - Reinhart - Ennis
Foligno - Grigorenko - Girgensons
Deslauriers - Larsson - stempniak
McCormick - Gionta

Sign stempniak as ufa, trade with boston
Eriksson + marc savards contract for our 2nd rounder, hodgson + 2 low tier prospects.

Bogosian - Sekera
Ristolainen - Gorges
Pysyk - mcCabe
weber

Zadorov will replace Gorges is he doesn't recover from surgery, otherwise he'll begin in rochester. Sekera as our UFA signing.


Enroth
Lindback.

Not to sure what will happen with our goalie situation, but I expect on of them to be back.

Why would Boston make that trade? To get a 2nd round pick that will help back into the playoffs next year? Cause after the season he just had I doubt they see Cody as a player who can help them there. And they don't need to get rid of Savards contract. It hurts them during the off-season to an extent but not during the reg season. They'll be looking at off-loading Lucic or someone who has high value and can return multiple pieces.

 

[RefsIdeas]

I do think Grigorenko has some potential at RW, but ideally his place is at C. Anybody know if Larsson can play wing at all? Grigorenko at center and Larsson at LW could be very good IMO.

I may be biased here as I've been a Grigorenko fan since he's been drafted, but I thought he was almost annoyingly good down the stretch. If he can come to camp next year with a little bit more intensity and pick up even more strength...watch out.

Also: did anybody else notice how much stronger Grigorenko seemed to be? I remember watching him in his first NHL games and he seemed to play small even though he's 6'3. Now when watching him he looks every bit of the 6'3 with his long reach and using it well.

 

[CatsforReinhart]

I do think Grigorenko has some potential at RW, but ideally his place is at C. Anybody know if Larsson can play wing at all? Grigorenko at center and Larsson at LW could be very good IMO.

I may be biased here as I've been a Grigorenko fan since he's been drafted, but I thought he was almost annoyingly good down the stretch. If he can come to camp next year with a little bit more intensity and pick up even more strength...watch out.

Also: did anybody else notice how much stronger Grigorenko seemed to be? I remember watching him in his first NHL games and he seemed to play small even though he's 6'3. Now when watching him he looks every bit of the 6'3 with his long reach and using it well.

I don't see why the sabres dont see how it plays out with Girgensons and Larsson on wing. I am not sure Larsson is even a capable top 3 center. You have to win faceoffs to do that.

McEichel
Reinhart
Grigorenko

as a top 3 centers with Girgensons and Larsson able to take over if Grigorenko faulters.

 

[joshjull]

Roof it - I can easily see flipping Grigorenko and Larsson from C to W as needed, either in camp or during the season, or during a game. I like the odds that both players could play either position.

Mike - Wasn't suggesting you said some of those things, I just went on trying to back up some of my points in a general way. To be more clear on one thing, I wouldn't put any of Larsson, Grigorenko, or Hodgson on the 4th line unless other factors kicked in. I'd use the 13th or 14th FW spots to keep them on the roster, and be able to plug them in if someone is ineffective or injured. Their is no number crunch that would prevent this, so it seems like a good option to me until these guys establish themselves.

Anyway...I guess we both see several possibilities for Grigorenko. The rest of the discussion is more suited for the roster speculation thread, so I'll take it there.

Grigs is at a point in his development where he needs to play. Ideally in situations and with line mates that play to his strengths. Its not a coincidence that his confidence grew and his play improved when he was allowed to stay in the top 6 down the stretch. I think it would be detrimental to his development as a player to just keep him around as a 13th/14th forward. I don't think sitting him in the press box waiting for an injury to get into the lineup is a productive use of him.

Thats part of there reason why I haven't seen him as a good fit here going forward. I think he would have a tough time getting the ice time and role needed to further his development. If he doesn't get that ice time and role I don't see how he is going to develop into the player many hope he can become. Thats what makes him losing his waiver exemption so frustrating. Another year starting in the AHL would have been perfect. He could get a ton of ice time there and get called up as needed.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Grigs is at a point in his development where he needs to play...

I guess I don't think injuries will take very long to make room for him. Seems like every camp a guy goes down and the roster starts out shorthanded. Even if that doesn't happen, Reinhart and/or McEichel may need to play RW to start off, moving Girgensons and/or Larsson to C or up a line. Any of this makes room for Grigorenko...to the point that it seems inevitable to me. So I don't think penciling him in as a reserve FW means he'll rot in the press box.

 

[joshjull]

I guess I don't think injuries will take very long to make room for him. Seems like every camp a guy goes down and the roster starts out shorthanded. Even if that doesn't happen, Reinhart and/or McEichel may need to play RW to start off, moving Girgensons and/or Larsson to C or up a line. Any of this makes room for Grigorenko...to the point that it seems inevitable to me. So I don't think penciling him in as a reserve FW means he'll rot in the press box.

I don't see Murray keeping him around on the hope others get hurt so he can get ice time.

 

[Heraldic]

I guess I don't think injuries will take very long to make room for him. Seems like every camp a guy goes down and the roster starts out shorthanded. Even if that doesn't happen, Reinhart and/or McEichel may need to play RW to start off, moving Girgensons and/or Larsson to C or up a line. Any of this makes room for Grigorenko...to the point that it seems inevitable to me. So I don't think penciling him in as a reserve FW means he'll rot in the press box.

We've been pretty badly ridden with injuries the last couple of seasons. It's not like the injuries will end when we actually want to have a healthy roster.

And you can still rotate players. Zadorov played 60 games this season. Does somebody really think that it wasn't enough for him to develop?