Value of: Mike Sullivan

Guttersniped

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Edit: Seravalli also adds some fuel to the fire:



The Dubas-Sullivan relationship must be pretty bad because there’s no other explanation for all this chatter.

Sullivan’s staff has been let go before, and Reirden ran a grotesquely bad PP, so that’s a bit fishy as an issue.

What’s Sullivan’s argument for Reirden? That the firing is “unfair”? Boo f***ing hoo, overseeing the 3rd worst PP% in the NHL can get you fired.
 
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Guttersniped

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You realize that most coaches have no trade value to another team. That is why, if it is still legal to trade a coach, it hasn’t been done in 30 years or so.

Because another team didn’t think to try doesn’t mean others can’t.

If a team wants to fire a coach and nobody wants to trade for them, they’ll still fire them. Then the coach can seek employment with no compensation being due to his former team. Just like now.

You’re making a big deal out of nothing.

It won’t happen because there’s no need.

Unless I missing something, unlike players, can’t coaches can resign?

With players, teams trade their contract or their signing rights.

When teams got those picks for coaches/GM, it was “compensation”, not a trade.
 

SomeDude

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It won’t happen because there’s no need.

Unless I missing something, unlike players, can’t coaches can resign?

With players, teams trade their contract or their signing rights.

When teams got those picks for coaches/GM, it was “compensation”, not a trade.
If a team is willing to trade something for a coach, then there is a need.

Players aren’t hostages, if they don’t want to play for a specific team they won’t. They’ll sit until the team trades them or terminates their contract. We’ve seen it many times.

The rights issue is something that could be a hang up. I don’t know if the NHL has any kind of oversight over front office people being unable to go to another team after resigning. Typically, they’re fired or it’s a mutual thing. You’d have to have a guy leave when the team didn’t want them to which I can’t really remember happening. Closest thing is JR randomly quitting on the Pens but I think his contract would have been expired anyways by the time we went to Vancouver.

In a coach trade scenario, the team trading for the coach would have to be allowed to speak to them to make sure they are ok with the move.

I am very aware of the difference between a trade and compensation. We know compensation was ended by NHL. I think we all assumed that meant trades also weren’t allowed but Weekes is suggesting otherwise.
 
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Guttersniped

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If a team is willing to trade something for a coach, then there is a need.

Players aren’t hostages, if they don’t want to play for a specific team they won’t. They’ll sit until the team trades them or terminates their contract.

The rights issue is something that could be a hang up. I don’t know if the NHL has any kind of oversight over front office people being unable to go to another team after resigning. Typically, they’re fired or it’s a mutual thing. You’d have to have a guy leave when the team didn’t want them to which I can’t really remember happening. Closest thing is JR randomly quitting on the Pens but I think his contract would have been expired anyways by the time we went to Vancouver.

In a coach trade scenario, the team trading for the coach would have to be allowed to speak to them to make sure they are ok with the move.

I am very aware of the difference between a trade and compensation. We know compensation was ended by NHL. I think we all assumed that meant trades also weren’t allowed but Weekes is suggesting otherwise.

Brent Sutter resigned from the Devils, with a year left on his deal, because he wanted to go home to Alberta.

Then it turned out “going home to Alberta” also meant becoming the Calgary Flames Head Coach a month later.

I don’t see why Sullivan can’t resign and then get a job somewhere else. There are no rules requiring a trade, the only thing that covers this is tampering rules.

If Sullivan really wants out, he’ll get out of his contract, no trade needed.

I suppose Dubas could drag it out to prevent him from get hired this off-season but petty shit against staff isn’t a good look.

Obviously this might be a bunch of smoke and no fire and everything will settle down with nothing happening.
 

Poppy Whoa Sonnet

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Sullivan also has 3 more years on his deal at 5.5m each year. That's a lot of money, does him quitting v. being fired v. "being traded" have meaningful impacts on him financially? I assume so, especially cause NJ can't talk to him about a guaranteed deal with explicit contract terms until that's sorted.

 
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SomeDude

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Brent Sutter resigned from the Devils, with a year left on his deal, because he wanted to go home to Alberta.

Then it turned out “going home to Alberta” also meant becoming the Calgary Flames Head Coach a month later.

I don’t see why Sullivan can’t resign and then get a job somewhere else. There are no rules requiring a trade, the only thing that covers this is tampering rules.

If Sullivan really wants out, he’ll get out of his contract, no trade needed.

I suppose Dubas could drag it out to prevent him from get hired this off-season but petty shit against staff isn’t a good look.

Obviously this might be a bunch of smoke and no fire and everything will settle down with nothing happening.
It sounds like NJ and Sutter mutually agreed to part ways which would void his contract making him available to any other team. There really is no precedent I can remember of a staff member wanting out of their deal and their team refusing.

The whole idea is that there would be interest in all parties: the Pens, Sullivan, and a team that wants to trade for Sullivan. If Sullivan simply resigns, there’s no guarantee he can get as much money as he’s currently getting and none of us really know if the league would prevent him from going to another team if the Pens wouldn’t want him to.
 

dgibb10

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Sullivan also has 3 more years on his deal at 5.5m each year. That's a lot of money, does him quitting v. being fired v. "being traded" have meaningful impacts on him financially? I assume so, especially cause NJ can't talk to him about a guaranteed deal with explicit contract terms until that's sorted.

From my understanding

If Pitt fires him they pay his full contract AND he gets a contract from NJD in this case on top of that.

If NJD trades for him Pitt pays nothing.

I'd frankly think Pitt would be paying NJD to take on his contract and save them money. And Sullivan would probably prefer to be fired so he can get the most money.

I may be mistaken tho

Why would NJD be paying in a trade?

From my understanding, if Pitt opts to fire Sullivan, they have to pay his full contract. In this trade scenario, they'd have to pay nothing.

You'd think Pitt would be paying NJD for the 16.5 million dollars they'll save
 

SomeDude

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From my understanding

If Pitt fires him they pay his full contract AND he gets a contract from NJD in this case on top of that.

If NJD trades for him Pitt pays nothing.

I'd frankly think Pitt would be paying NJD to take on his contract and save them money. And Sullivan would probably prefer to be fired so he can get the most money.

I may be mistaken tho
It likely varies contract to contract, but generally when a coach is fired the team only pays their contract (or a lesser amount agreed upon in their original contract) while they are unemployed. If they get hired by another team, their original team either stops paying them or pays them an agreed upon “buyout” for a fraction of what is still owed.

Sully would get hired an hour after being fired. The Pens aren’t worried about that.
 

Sparty

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Why would anyone trade for him if Pittsburgh wants him gone?

Just let him go and let the guy pick his own destination. He won two cups for you, he deserves at least that instead of this wack bs.
 

LEAFANFORLIFE23

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So if this could hypothetical happen would pens fans see him as a negative value asset? you shouldn't because he's got 2 cups But Pens fans REALLY seem to hate him for some reason
 

Guttersniped

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It sounds like NJ and Sutter mutually agreed to part ways which would void his contract making him available to any other team. There really is no precedent I can remember of a staff member wanting out of their deal and their team refusing.

The whole idea is that there would be interest in all parties: the Pens, Sullivan, and a team that wants to trade for Sullivan. If Sullivan simply resigns, there’s no guarantee he can get as much money as he’s currently getting and none of us really know if the league would prevent him from going to another team if the Pens wouldn’t want him to.

“There really is no precedent I can remember of a staff member wanting out of their deal and their team refusing.”

Well Mike Keenen’s exit as the Rangers’ HC, one month after winning the Cup, was pretty messy.

Keenen did this at a July 15th 1994 presser:

"I'm here to announce that I am no longer coach of the New York Rangers," he said, adding that he had not resigned but rather had become "a free agent" because of the breaching of his five-year contract.

"The New York Rangers did not fulfill their contractual obligations," he said, "and as a result of that breach I'm no longer employed by the New York Rangers."

Beyond saying that a "substantial" amount of money was involved, the 44-year-old Keenan refused to discuss the specifics of the contractual obligations, but within hours of his announcement the Rangers' parent company, Madison Square Garden, issued a statement saying it had been stunned by his action.

Then on July 17, 1994 he became the Blues GM/HC.

The NHL didn’t buy what Keenen was selling. Keenen got suspended for 60 days and fined 100k and the Blues were fined 250k.

The Rangers got this trade in the settlement on July 25th:
Petr Nedved to the Rangers for forward Esa Tikkanen and defenseman Doug Lidster. (Got to love those 1990s settlement trades.)

Side Note: The Blues were on fire in 1994, they also egregiously tampered with a Scott Stevens offer sheet that off-season though they didn’t pay the piper for that until 1999. (GM Ron Caron did the tampering before Keenen was hired.)

Not sure if there’s any other situation like that.

Being a weirdly vindictive employer isn’t the NHL way, you want to be place where people want to work, not a place that holds unhappy coaches hostage.

Obviously coaches don’t typically resign because they get paid even if they get fired. And I don’t know exactly how the resignation process works, not a contract lawyer.

The NHL isn’t going to prevent him from going to another team though. Keenen wasn’t blocked from his job in St Louis after all that drama for example.

If there’s suspected tampering, or some other infraction, then there’s an investigation and/or punishments.

For a more recent example than Sutter of a coach resigning then hired elsewhere, Bill Peters resigned as HC of the Canes on April 20, 2018, with a year left on his deal, and then was hired by the Flames on April 23, 2018.


 

Rudy Russo

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"I'm not going anywhere!"
1714778880961.png
 

Rudy Russo

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Trade for Sullivan get free shipping ,as a added bonus you can add to your collection by hiring freshly fired Bald Todd sold separately, dont delay, act now, supplies are running out! Add a whatever the f*** you can win a free Ryan Graves, Matt Nieto, or Noel Accari value at this magnitude doesnt come along very often. Were totally not being carnies and selling you defective magic beans.
If I can take Harkins with me; I'll go anywhere.
1714779403093.png
 

JKG33

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Trying to trade a coach and not just letting him leave would be the most petty and on brand Dubas move ever. This is the same guy who refused to trade Hyman to Edmonton as a pending UFA out of spite
 
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Luigi Lemieux

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So if this could hypothetical happen would pens fans see him as a negative value asset? you shouldn't because he's got 2 cups But Pens fans REALLY seem to hate him for some reason
It's been over 8 years he's worn out his welcome.
Why would anyone trade for him if Pittsburgh wants him gone?

Just let him go and let the guy pick his own destination. He won two cups for you, he deserves at least that instead of this wack bs.
Pens likely don't want to be on the hook for the remaining 16.5m of his contract. If NJ or Ottawa think he's their guy and Sullivan is ok with it then maybe it could happen.
 
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Nac Mac Feegle

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Being able to trade a coach would be horrible for the league. Coaches are already at the point where they have very few tools left to keep players in line. It's mostly down to cutting icetime or putting someone on a lower line. If a coach can be traded, any kind of authority they'd have over a group of players in the locker room just vanishes.
 
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