Miikka Kiprusoff vs Carey Price

[Felidae]

I wanted to see how much of an edge Carey Price has in terms of peak play so I compared his MVP season to Kiprusoff's best statistically.

Price lead the league with a .933sv%, 2nd best in the league was Dubynk with a .929sv%, and 10th best had a .923sv%, he was 4th in saves and 5th in shots against.


So onto Kipprusoff. In 2003-04 he had a .933sv%. He was actually tied with Dwayne Roloson, both goaltenders sporting a .933sv%. 3rd place was Luongo who wasn't too far behind with a .931sv%. 10th best had a .923sv%, exactly the same gap Price had over 10th best in 2014-15.

he was not top 10 in saves or shots against because he only played 37 games. It was still good enough to get him 4th in hart voting and runner up to the Vezina. But considering Price sustained the same sv% in 66 games, I'm inclined to give the edge to price.

However, while 2003-04 is the highest sv% in his career, it's arguably not his best. In 2005-06 he actually won the vezina and was a hart finalist, along with being 3rd in save percentage despite having a. 923sv%. So let's compare, and here is where it gets interesting.

He finished behind Hasek (.925sv%) and Huet(.929sv%), but they played 43 and 36 games while Kiprusoff played 74 games.

And 10th place had a .914sv%, just a 0.01% gap smaller than the one Price had over 10th best in his hart season. This makes a lot of sense since 2005-06 was noticeably higher scoring than 2014-15. I mean, 10th best in 2014-15 had the same sv% Kiprusoff had in 2005-06, which was good enough for 3rd best in the league.

Even their workload during their peak seasons was equivalent. Kiprusoff was 4th in saves and 5th in shots against. The exact same as Price in his hart season.

So looking at this more in depth. Im no longer convinced Price was better at his peak. The only difference is that Price won the Hart and Pearson while Kiprusoff was merely a finalist. I think this is only due to the incredibly weak competition in 2014-15, especially in contrast to 2005-06, and just to emphasize that fact...

Jagr and Thornton were 1a and 1b dominating the competition offensively. They had a 30 and 32 point gap over 10th place and in terms of PPG their lead over 10th place adjusting to 82 games is a 23 and 26 point gap.

In comparison, Benn who lead the league in scoring and was also a hart finalist, only had a 13 point gap over 10th place, and Crosby leading the league in PPG only had a 10 point gap to 10th best when adjusting to 82 games.

So yeah, Price sweeped the awards in what was a weak year for forwards. I don't think Price would do the same in 2005 given that Kiprusoff was a hart finalist and had the same statistical dominance Price had over his peers

in conclusion, I see little to no difference comparing their peak seasons. If anything, they seem as identical as you can get in that regard.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

At best the Habs were the best team in the East in 2008, scoring more goals than any other in the entire league. Their own division they won four times.

His rookie year where he’s 20 years old and played half a season… and that was a pretty flukey year. They weren’t great the year before nor were they great after. And his play helped get them to first place that year as well.

He was behind mediocre to bad teams for his whole career. After 08 he only had ONE season where a player even hit 70 points. Plekanec hit exactly 70 in 2010.

To be fair, the 2013 shortened year team was pretty good. There probably would’ve been a 70 point player that season. But honestly, his teams were mostly a wasteland.

Now if you don’t mind, I’m going to head over to the ‘will the Habs break the streak thread’ where it’s asking if the Canadiens will ever get another 80 point player given that they haven’t had one since 2008….

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

Going Kipper. Games played are not that high for Price.

 

[Albatros]

His rookie year where he’s 20 years old and played half a season… and that was a pretty flukey year. They weren’t great the year before nor were they great after. And his play helped get them to first place that year as well.

He was behind mediocre to bad teams for his whole career. After 08 he only had ONE season where a player even hit 70 points. Plekanec hit exactly 70 in 2010.

To be fair, the 2013 shortened year team was pretty good. There probably would’ve been a 70 point player that season. But honestly, his teams were mostly a wasteland.

Now if you don’t mind, I’m going to head over to the ‘will the Habs break the streak thread’ where it’s asking if the Canadiens will ever get another 80 point player given that they haven’t had one since 2008….

They won the division every other year 2013-2017 and had three 100-point seasons including a 110-point one, that's not mediocre. It's true that eventually they didn't have overwhelming scoring power, but they had plenty of depth and good defensive forwards plus a defense with Subban, Markov, Gonchar, Emelin, Petry, Gilbert.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

They won the division every other year 2013-2017

Why do you think that is?

Look what happens in 2015-16 when Price goes down. They were a first place team the year before. They were 12-2 when he got hurt. Then they go to last place everywhere.

and had three 100-point seasons including a 110-point one, that's not mediocre. It's true that eventually they didn't have overwhelming scoring power, but they had plenty of depth and good defensive forwards plus a defense with Subban, Markov, Gonchar, Emelin, Petry, Gilbert.

As per above. Look at the team with and without him. They go from first to last. David Desharnais was their first line center. Only once after his rookie year did he even play with a 70 point player. Some teams were mediocre and others were terrible. The team had no depth. If a key injury happened they were be awful. The 2012 season is a great example. Price played great but his numbers were pedestrian because the club in front of him sucked.

Look at the team he went to the finals with. His best scorer paced for a 60 point season over 82 in the playoffs. Look at the teams he beat to get there… crazy to get that team to the finals.

 

[abo9]

Price by a pretty large margin. He had several huge upsets in the postseason and advanced with teams that had no business advancing. Kipper is great but short career and didn’t have the track record in the postseason to match.

I’ve mentioned this in another thread but Price was limited by his teams and injuries. In 2016 he was on pace for back to back Hart/Vezina caliber seasons. That would really helped his legacy. But he got hurt. Silver lining for him though is you got to see how the team was without him. They go from a first place team to dead last everywhere. Huge impact player. Injuries came at horrible times in the 2013 and 14 playoffs as well. A shame.

2017-18, the GM blew up the team and Price had a rotating cast of shit in front of him. People think he just fell off - he didn’t. He simply couldn’t save that team from itself. Horrific roster with ten mil in open cap space. Bergevin should’ve been shot.

To your last point, I think Price definitely "fell off" in some capacity though, bc he had those lingerig injury issues that kept bothering him and he was in pain all the time when goaltending. Like, he showed to be able to go on a stretch for the playoffs, but RS-wise, grind became too big.

Idk if it all comes back to the Kreirder injury in 2015, but the reality is that he was so good that other teams had to physically get involved with him to have a chance. And back then, Mtl was super soft and not protecting him. Bergevin reacted by building a defense of goons, but Price was already chronically injured.

But as you said, injuries to Price really enabled us all to witness his impact on the team.
Price enabled the Habs to delay a rebuild by 10-15 years. No way around it now.

 

[abo9]

Kipper set a modern day NHL record for GAA with a 1.69(nice)

I won't begrudge anyone voting for Price but gimme Miikka here

GAA, a team metric, is the argument swaying you?

Jaroslav Halak has more Jennings than either Kip or Price... wouldnt argue Halak over either goalies. Thomas Greiss, Brian Elliott won one as well. Wouldn't argue either of those as top tier goaltending material

With these merits, it's arguable. However, this poll would go to Kipper by a landslide with added Conn Smythe and Stanley cup if refs didn't f up with the Stanley cup winning goal on 2004

If you play the what if game, Price not getting injured by Kreider would do wonders to his legacy. Had Price won the CS in 2021, does it sways the results? He was most definitely the best player in the playoffs that year, but I understand not awadding the CS to a player on a team who lost the finals so decisively.

 

[Albatros]

Why do you think that is?

Look what happens in 2015-16 when Price goes down. They were a first place team the year before. They were 12-2 when he got hurt. Then they go to last place everywhere.

As per above. Look at the team with and without him. They go from first to last. David Desharnais was their first line center. Only once after his rookie year did he even play with a 70 point player. Some teams were mediocre and others were terrible. The team had no depth. If a key injury happened they were be awful. The 2012 season is a great example. Price played great but his numbers were pedestrian because the club in front of him sucked.

Look at the team he went to the finals with. His best scorer paced for a 60 point season over 82 in the playoffs. Look at the teams he beat to get there… crazy to get that team to the finals.

Mike Condon wasn't anywhere close to starter quality, I don't think anyone believes otherwise. Solid backups like Halák or Budaj never became a problem behind that defense. Even Antti Niemi had a winning record in Montréal both of his two seasons there despite not having won a single game in Pittsburgh or Florida before that.

Plekanec was their 1C by the way. Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gallagher. Not a scoring champion, but with him and Danault they were very well off defensively.

 

[MXD]

At best the Habs were the best team in the East in 2008, scoring more goals than any other in the entire league. Their own division they won four times.

... Again, at an age where Carey Price wasn't yet Carey Price, and at the same age, Kiprusoff was nowhere close to the NHL.

 

[The Tourist]

Pretty equal. Splitting hairs either way. Maybe Price at his absolute best edges out Kipper.

 

[MXD]

Mike Condon wasn't anywhere close to starter quality, I don't think anyone believes otherwise. Solid backups like Halák or Budaj never became a problem behind that defense. Even Antti Niemi had a winning record in Montréal both of his two seasons there despite not having won a single game in Pittsburgh or Florida before that.

Plekanec was their 1C by the way. Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gallagher. Not a scoring champion, but with him and Danault they were very well off defensively.

That was never really a line though.

 

[Albatros]

That was never really a line though.

The most common line the Habs had that year, both EV and PP. SH Pacioretty-Plekanec.

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gallagher 11.31 % ES / 21.03 % PP
Fleischmann-Desharnais-Weise 7.68 % ES

 

[MXD]

The most common line the Habs had that year, both EV and PP. SH Pacioretty-Plekanec.

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gallagher 11.31 % ES / 21.03 % PP
Fleischmann-Desharnais-Weise 7.68 % ES

That was over exactly one season, and it was very obvious for pretty much everyone watching them, and actually understanding hockey, that Tomas Plekanec was a 2B Center at the very best at that time of his career, and that he was pretty much carried by Pacioretty and Gallagher, who were both pretty solid 2-way first liners, but somewhat run-of-the-mill ones.

 

[Albatros]

That was over exactly one season, and it was very obvious for pretty much everyone watching them, and actually understanding hockey, that Tomas Plekanec was a 2B Center at the very best at that time of his career, and that he was pretty much carried by Pacioretty and Gallagher, who were both pretty solid 2-way first liners, but somewhat run-of-the-mill ones.

Sure, I just responded to the notion of Desharnais allegedly having been their 1C. He averaged only 16 minutes a night. Although I think one can be generous enough to say that Plekanec would have been a solid 2C for most teams in the league. Defensively very good and capable of scoring 25 goals, 60 points.

 

[MXD]

Sure, I just responded to the notion of Desharnais allegedly having been their 1C. He averaged only 16 minutes a night. Although I think one can be generous enough to say that Plekanec would have been a solid 2C for most teams in the league. Defensively very good and capable of scoring 25 goals, 60 points.

Not that at point of his career. If anything, I was being very generous calling him a 2B Center.

That's also a bit why I said the Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gallagher line was never really a thing, because, when they were together, Plekanec wasn't quite what we tend to think of when we think "Tomas Plekanec".

 

[Albatros]

Not that at point of his career. If anything, I was being very generous calling him a 2B Center.

That's also a bit why I said the Pacioretty - Plekanec - Gallagher line was never really a thing, because, when they were together, Plekanec wasn't quite what we tend to think of when we think "Tomas Plekanec".

His season did go downhill, too, but late November after the first quarter he was still point per game and top ten league-wide in scoring, tied with Panarin and MacKinnon, ahead of Ovechkin and Malkin.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Pretty equal. Splitting hairs either way. Maybe Price at his absolute best edges out Kipper.

Price at his absolute best, Peak Price, stack with Hasek and Roy

 

[Connor McConnor]

Did Tim Thomas get retconned out of existence?

Kiprusoff played 70+ games every year for like six years because if he wasn't in net, then the Flames were losing. The team never seemed to have the confidence in front of anyone other than Kipper.

And if Price didn't play Montreal was losing. Problem is he COULDNT play as many games as Kipper because he was hurt every single year. Nobody is voting Tim Thomas ahead of either of these guys either.

Price at his absolute best, Peak Price, stack with Hasek and Roy

Nah.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Nah.

Yep.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Price is second only to Karlsson on this site of players who get the benefit of the doubt extrapolating what they "should" be doing vs. what they're ACTUALLY doing (if only they were healthy and their teams didn't let them down and and and). He's one of the top-5-6 of his generation but he's reached this insane mythological status that isn't consistent with reality. He's just a brand name/big market Jonathan Quick in a market that was hungry to anoint someone after Patty Roy.

Kipper here, it's close, but clear. When you're talking about the best of the best, health and consistency matters.

 

[Three On Zero]

Price was better, Kiprusoff has better longevity

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

To your last point, I think Price definitely "fell off" in some capacity though, bc he had those lingerig injury issues that kept bothering him and he was in pain all the time when goaltending. Like, he showed to be able to go on a stretch for the playoffs, but RS-wise, grind became too big.

He ‘fell off’ a lot earlier because the team was blown up in 2018. He was behind guys like Schlemko. Jonathan Drouin was traded for and used as a number one center (despite being a winger.) it was a total shitshow.

Idk if it all comes back to the Kreirder injury in 2015, but the reality is that he was so good that other teams had to physically get involved with him to have a chance. And back then, Mtl was super soft and not protecting him. Bergevin reacted by building a defense of goons, but Price was already chronically injured.

But as you said, injuries to Price really enabled us all to witness his impact on the team.
Price enabled the Habs to delay a rebuild by 10-15 years. No way around it now.

You are correct here. Super soft team and he had no crease protection. It was brutal.

Mike Condon wasn't anywhere close to starter quality, I don't think anyone believes otherwise. Solid backups like Halák or Budaj never became a problem behind that defense. Even Antti Niemi had a winning record in Montréal both of his two seasons there despite not having won a single game in Pittsburgh or Florida before that.

And anytime Price went down for an extended period of time they’d crash and burn.

Not only was the roster mediocre, they had the worst coach in the league in Therrien and would get badly hemmed into their own zone. Price was able to help with that because he was a great stick handler. Other teams would shoot it in and he’d shoot it right back out. He was like a third defenseman.

Plekanec was their 1C by the way.

He was our best Center. He was not used as a number one.

Pacioretty-Plekanec-Gallagher. Not a scoring champion, but with him and Danault they were very well off defensively.

No. That was not the first line. Desharnais was stapled to Paccioretty.

 

[Albatros]

No. That was not the first line. Desharnais was stapled to Paccioretty.

I'm sorry, but that's just statistically incorrect. Desharnais was playing most commonly with Fleischmann and Weise (36.88 %), only after that Pacioretty and Weise (17.53 %), followed by Andrighetto and Danault (6.30 %).

 

[CascadiaPuck]

I voted Price because the peak was so high. But some people are sleeping on Kipper. I saw him so many times as a Canucks fan and the guy was just a rock. And having had all those 70+ game seasons is bananas.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I'm sorry, but that's just statistically incorrect. Desharnais was playing most commonly with Fleischmann and Weise (36.88 %), only after that Pacioretty and Weise (17.53 %), followed by Andrighetto and Danault (6.30 %).

No.

DD was stapled to Max Paccioretty. I don’t know what numbers you’re looking at but it’s incorrect. Weise was actually on the first with Max and DD for a period of time as well. What timeline are you looking at? DD was with Max for years.