Messier vs McDavid

[Niten Ichi Ryu]

The only player in NHL history to captain 2 teams to a championship. Only one.
Sure, generally speaking, judging a player solely on team accomplishments is silly, but to captain the ship, on 2 different teams, one of them Gretzky-less, is an omnipotent achievement.

Gretzky never touched the cup again after he left Edmonton. Messier takes the C, leads a team that the whole league has written off as finished, nothing without Gretzky, to a 5th championship. Its when Messier left that Edmonton took a landslide towards mediocrity, not when Wayne left.

He then goes to New York, captain's the ship again, and wins his 6th Stanley Cup, on a completely different team, different conference. And after guaranteeing a game 6 win against the Devils, en route to a championship.

Greatest leader in NHL history, all around 3 zone player with a rugged in your face style, only player to captain 2 franchise stanley cups, and 3rd all time in pts

I worship Connor McDavid, he's the greatest talent we've ever seen in hockey, but if you're asking who i choose in their prime, to captain my team in the playoffs, desire more than talent, I choose Mark Messier every time

 

[22Brad Park]

Messier got it done and has rings to prove it .

 

[Messrules11]

I really hope when I hit senility my thought process goes further than "I watched this player when I was young and he was drafted onto a dynasty, so he's better"

I know this is an Edmonton oilers message board so we're all a little too close to the subject matter, but this is like arguing Scottie Pippin is better than LeBron James.

Messier got to play with the goat, Mcdavid got drafted by the Cavaliers.

Good grief man. Now he was ‘drafted on to a dynasty’?
Just stop, your embarrassing yourself again.

 

[The Panther]

Nobody loves Messier more than I do, and I largely agree with your take, but let's apply a little context here:

The only player in NHL history to captain 2 teams to a championship. Only one.
Sure, generally speaking, judging a player solely on team accomplishments is silly, but to captain the ship, on 2 different teams, one of them Gretzky-less, is an omnipotent achievement.

Agree.

Gretzky never touched the cup again after he left Edmonton.

Right, but Gretzky was the best player (the only great player, at that) on a largely unimpressive Kings' club that won the Western Conference. Whereas Mess made the Finals in New York (once) on a highly stacked, super-talented club that would still have been competitive without him. And when they won it all, Mess wasn't their best player (though he was great).

Messier takes the C, leads a team that the whole league has written off as finished, nothing without Gretzky, to a 5th championship. Its when Messier left that Edmonton took a landslide towards mediocrity, not when Wayne left.

Not really. The Rangers were a decent club before Messier got there, trending upward, with an enormous amount of talent on the roster. Mess was the cherry-on-top that pushed them over the edge and guided them to the promised land.

The "Edmonton landslide toward mediocrity" 'timeline isn't really accurate, either. If you go by regular season results:

Final 2 Gretzky seasons: .641 (1st NHL)
First two post-Gretzky seasons: .544 (5th NHL)

Final 2 Messier seasons: .531 (8th NHL)
First 2 post-Messier seasons: .433 (20th NHL)

Relative to the competition, they fall farther in the overall standings in the two seasons post-Messier, but that's because in the summer/fall of 1991 they lost not only Messier, but also Muckler (coach), Graves, Kurri, Smith, Fuhr, Anderson, and Huddy.

The 1990 Stanley Cup kind of speaks for itself, BUT the 1992 Oilers without Messier also went to the third round—the same as the 1991 Oilers with Messier.

I worship Connor McDavid, he's the greatest talent we've ever seen in hockey, but if you're asking who i choose in their prime, to captain my team in the playoffs, desire more than talent, I choose Mark Messier every time

Oh yeah, to captain a team, I'd take Messier too.

But objectively speaking, McDavid is clearly the better player.

 

[Took a pill in Sbisa]

If only McDavid had won multiple cups with a team that featured a player even better than himself and anyone else in the history of the sport, a top-5 dman all-time and an Oilers team with multiple HOFers to go to team with a Norris winning Brian Leech in his prime, a prime 90-point Zubov, and a goalie that was voted as 6th best in the NHL, maybe McDavid would be seen as a better captain.

But he didn't. Instead he's only seen as the greatest player of his generation.

This thread is nuts.

 

[Fourier]

Here is a question for those of you choosing Messier. Had the comparison been between McDavid and Bryan Trottier instead would you have still chosen Trottier? I ask because almost every accolade given to Messier, with the exception of his level of intimidation, could be applied to Trottier, if not to a slightly lesser degree. Trottier was not the go to guy in his last 2 cups of course but he was for the first 4.

(And for the record I do rate Messier above Trottier. But their careers, aside from longevity are quite similar.)

 

[McTedi]

I choose McD but Mess was maybe the best team first type of player there ever was. Perfect player for the Oilers in that era, I think the Oilers probably win 3 less cups without him.

 

[mooseman7]

Connor has better skill but there’s a lot more than skill to look at in this comparison, silly as it is.
I’ll take the moose in his prime everyday.

The "MOOSE" was a rare player that could dominate the game in more than 1 way.
1- Speed: ( top 4 or 5 skaters of all time) .His rare blend of speed and power was intimidating to say the least, Compared to a Gartner or Coffey even Bure .I Never saw him loose a foot race ..

2- Physically imposing in his prime: Ran over ANYONE at will.See 84 Can .Cup / Many battles vs the flames, Jets ,Islanders..He could go through you , or around you..
The strength on his skates was legendary, and I don't remember him getting knocked down from a hit , more than maybe a couple times..Even including past his prime..
Didn't fight often, but didn't loose 1, judging by the old footage you can still find.
His temper and will to win at all costs , put fear in other players, and set him apart from just fighters ...
3- his leadership skills :
Considered to be maybe the greatest leader in sports for good reason.
Just playing in the shadows of the GOAT would cause others to just leave it in coast more often than not. Or take a backseat role.
Gretzky may have been the Magician, But Mess, was the straw that stired the drink..
Winning a cup while Captain ,replacing his best friend and former teammate " THE GOAT"
After all that went down with the sale , would be a situation that very few athletes could have overcome, yet alone thrive in ..
His playoffs in 91 against first Winnipeg, then Chicago ( esp.) Was him just imposing his will on the opponent.. The game against Chicago (the hat trick) in Old Chicago stadium , to me , was more Impressive than his game 6 hat trick in N.Y against Jersey. He was , A ONE MAN WRECKING CREW....
4- scoring ..
He had 50 goals once , had 45+ 3 more times and almost became the oldest player to ever record 50 in the 95- 96 season at I believe the age of 35 ???

And finally, the game 6 guarantee- hat trick, paving the way for a Stanley cup in N.Y. giving him 6 cup 2 as Captain of 2 different teams . I'ts a feat that
No other athlete has achieved in professional sports..
Of course these observations were when he was in his prime, from year 3 to about year 11 of his career but I don't say this as a slight to McDavid ..
Just from a guy thats seen them both in their prime live ...
Pretty fortunate when you think about it.
How many people got to see maybe the greatest athletes, in any sports history.
Gretzky,Lemieux,McDavid Messier,Coffey,Fuhr,Kurri,Tiger,Nicklaus,Jordan,Majic,Bird,Kareem, Montana,Marino,Brady,Bo Jackson ,Ali, ,Tyson,Holyfield,Clemens,Griffey,Nolan Ryan,RandyJohnston,Big Pappi,Maguire, Bonds,Ripkin,Rose..
I could go on, t man the 80's WERE UNREAL, a lot the GOAT'S from every professional sports league around..
Quite incredible..

 

[Messrules11]

Tro

Here is a question for those of you choosing Messier. Had the comparison been between McDavid and Bryan Trottier instead would you have still chosen Trottier? I ask because almost every accolade given to Messier, with the exception of his level of intimidation, could be applied to Trottier, if not to a slightly lesser degree. Trottier was not the go to guy in his last 2 cups of course but he was for the first 4.

(And for the record I do rate Messier above Trottier. But their careers, aside from longevity are quite similar.)

Trottier was a hell of a player in his prime, no denying that, but if we’re going down that rabbit hole it’s very deep.
Might as well add Esposito or a bunch of Habs to compare and I’m not going there.
Different times, different eras, there’s no end to these debates.

 

[Fourier]

Tro

Trottier was a hell of a player in his prime, no denying that, but if we’re going down that rabbit hole it’s very deep.
Might as well add Esposito or a bunch of Habs to compare and I’m not going there.
Different times, different eras, there’s no end to these debates.

The reason I chose Trottier rather than Espo or a myriad of Habs, was that he is a contemporary of Messier's, or close to one, with a very similar career record who was often praised for most of the same intangibles that people on here are correctly attributing to Messier. They are also often ranked in similar places on the all time lists with Messier coming in marginally ahead. My guess is that if I started this pole with Trottier almost no one would have chosen him despite his 6 cups etc.

Mark Messier vs. Bryan Trottier: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Mark Messier and Bryan Trottier including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

There is no right answer to any of these questions. But the purpose of this thread is to see how much winning, which for me is far more of a team accomplishment than the control of an individual, impacts the perception of the player like McDavid. Here the fact that it is a different time also matters. I appreciate Messier as much as almost anyone here. When I look at how McDavid played in the 2022 playoffs for example with the team still not winning there is no way that I could fathom that team beating Colorado if you magically switched McDavid for the equivalent of the 1990 or 1994 version of Messier. So I find it hard to use Championships as a major criterion in comparing such players. Others see it differently.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Didn’t Messier also throw Jimmy Carson up against a wall because he wouldn’t play the right way? Different times today I know but I’d love to see some fire like that directed at a player or two on this team.

Boomers respond well to intimidation. Its why Keenan and Bowman were top coaches.

Millenials don't respond at all to that.

 

[94 Oil Drops]

This is a really interesting pole. I think McDavid is a much better player but Messier was a leader for the ages when he was in Edmonton. A superior leader compared to McDavid actually.

Part of me wants to say that we'd probably have a cup championship already if Mark was captaining this current group playing with Leon because of his sheer will to win and outstanding leadership but then again, he played so greasy at times he'd probably be banned from today's NHL! lol

 

[Messrules11]

The reason I chose Trottier rather than Espo or a myriad of Habs, was that he is a contemporary of Messier's, or close to one, with a very similar career record who was often praised for most of the same intangibles that people on here are correctly attributing to Messier. They are also often ranked in similar places on the all time lists with Messier coming in marginally ahead. My guess is that if I started this pole with Trottier almost no one would have chosen him despite his 6 cups etc.

Mark Messier vs. Bryan Trottier: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Mark Messier and Bryan Trottier including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

There is no right answer to any of these questions. But the purpose of this thread is to see how much winning, which for me is far more of a team accomplishment than the control of an individual, impacts the perception of the player like McDavid. Here the fact that it is a different time also matters. I appreciate Messier as much as almost anyone here. When I look at how McDavid played in the 2022 playoffs for example with the team still not winning there is no way that I could fathom that team beating Colorado if you magically switched McDavid for the equivalent of the 1990 or 1994 version of Messier. So I find it hard to use Championships as a major criterion in comparing such players. Others see it differently.

Fair enough, I have a lot of respect for Trottier and he had an amazing career but I’ll let my bias shine on this one.
It’s Mess in a walk.

I guess you were comparing Trottier/McD, Oiler bias wins obviously but McD still needs to get it done in the playoffs.

 

[Drivesaitl]

The reason I chose Trottier rather than Espo or a myriad of Habs, was that he is a contemporary of Messier's, or close to one, with a very similar career record who was often praised for most of the same intangibles that people on here are correctly attributing to Messier. They are also often ranked in similar places on the all time lists with Messier coming in marginally ahead. My guess is that if I started this pole with Trottier almost no one would have chosen him despite his 6 cups etc.

Mark Messier vs. Bryan Trottier: Head-to-Head Stats Comparison | Stathead.com

Compare Players: Check out the head-to-head stats of Mark Messier and Bryan Trottier including their awards, honors, championships, playoff and regular season stats, and much more on Stathead.com

stathead.com

There is no right answer to any of these questions. But the purpose of this thread is to see how much winning, which for me is far more of a team accomplishment than the control of an individual, impacts the perception of the player like McDavid. Here the fact that it is a different time also matters. I appreciate Messier as much as almost anyone here. When I look at how McDavid played in the 2022 playoffs for example with the team still not winning there is no way that I could fathom that team beating Colorado if you magically switched McDavid for the equivalent of the 1990 or 1994 version of Messier. So I find it hard to use Championships as a major criterion in comparing such players. Others see it differently.

If I can add here that the players existed as well in far different NHL realities. Mess got most of the cups in 21 team NHL and at that time there were only around 4 teams a season that legitimately were contenders. The Oilers rolled through playoffs in 85 and 88 essentially barely even touched. Thats rarer today in post cap parity reality. Fact is that no team today wins 5 cups in an arc and maybe never will again. 1 off SC's are common, Two SC's occur, and even 3 are rare now.

Even though the Oilers of the time would have to go through 4 series to win SC's the playoffs were much different at the time due to 16/21 teams making it. Not like today where almost every series is a test involving clubs that are winning clubs.

That Oilers team found ways to fall and did so against LA Kings, (major upset) in 82. Fell to Calgary in 86 and were defeated again by LA in 89.

In the Oilers cup era the stiffest test was NYI obviously, a team they lost to in two post seasons and beat once for their first cup.

Next harder being the Flyers who actually tested us severely in 87

Two cups against Boston they were not a team that could play with us in postseason. Once we were at playoff speed the Bruins were not as much a match. They couldn't beat our talent even in 90.

In anycase comparisons are apples oranges. They are exercises in hypotheticals.

 

[Fourier]

If I can add here that the players existed as well in far different NHL realities. Mess got most of the cups in 21 team NHL and at that time there were only around 4 teams a season that legitimately were contenders. The Oilers rolled through playoffs in 85 and 88 essentially barely even touched. Thats rarer today in post cap parity reality. Fact is that no team today wins 5 cups in an arc and maybe never will again. 1 off SC's are common, Two SC's occur, and even 3 are rare now.

Even though the Oilers of the time would have to go through 4 series to win SC's the playoffs were much different at the time due to 16/21 teams making it. Not like today where almost every series is a test involving clubs that are winning clubs.

That Oilers team found ways to fall and did so against LA Kings, (major upset) in 82. Fell to Calgary in 86 and were defeated again by LA in 89.

In the Oilers cup era the stiffest test was NYI obviously, a team they lost to in two post seasons and beat once for their first cup.

Next harder being the Flyers who actually tested us severely in 87

Two cups against Boston they were not a team that could play with us in postseason. Once we were at playoff speed the Bruins were not as much a match. They couldn't beat our talent even in 90.

In anycase comparisons are apples oranges. They are exercises in hypotheticals.

This post reinforces why the "team must win test" is so punitive to a guy like McDavid. Take it even further back and look at Hull who is ranked ahead of Messier. He won one cup in a 6 team league, though he did win several Avco cups.

This thread actually stems from a discussion on the main thread by the way where i pointed out that all of the all-time greats won their cups on teams with multiple Hall of Famers and usually at least one goalie who would be at the relative level of a guy like Hellebuyck. Imagine the cap needed to ice a team today with 7 future Hall of Famers in their prime.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I'll also note the relative players paths to being prominent players were much different. For McD from the start he was pushing mountains at the NHL level. He got on track immediately and was that good.


Both you and I saw Messier in WHA where he couldn't score and was just young learning his craft. He didn't get untracked to top player production until having played in pro hockey around 4 seasons including WHA and NHL. Both Gretz and Mess got the underage benefit of experience playing with adult pros. A trial by fire that helped them grow their game at pro level and was advantage over the less competitive aspects they would have seen playing own age players. The induction of 16yr olds of course doesn't occur now. Its an apprenticeship not available to todays players.

Interesting as well, I point it out regularly in discussions that Mess wasn't even a premier player the first couple NHL seasons. He wasn't much first season and frankly Glenn Anderson gave him a lot of extra options, ideas, and helped Moose get on track. Mess was even often impressed with the skill, speed, fire of Anderson and loved having him on line. He saw a kindred spirit on the ice with Anderson. But all of Gretz, Anderson, Kurri initially had greater per game production than Mess early on.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

What Mess realized, and he states this sort of thing autobiographically its that the playing with the great one, and a great team motivated him to be the best player he could possibly be. He saw what was provided and he was around and it served as motivation to make every sacrifice.

Skill wise, talent wise, someone like Mike Gartner was a better player than Mess for most of careers but never had the option to play with the greatest player on Earth. Of course the latter is immensely motivating and so argument can be made that the presense of Wayne Gretzky caused a lot of the players around him, Kurri, Anderson, Lowe, Mess to be greater than they would otherwise be.

I exclude Coffey and Fuhr from this because they would've been great anywhere they landed. They were elite at their position with or without Gretz. Anderson would have been a gifted player anywhere but not to the degree he was here.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Another reply that the "must win" metric to be considered great is generally short sighted fallacy . Until the latest WC win the argument was made against Messi, the premier footballer on the planet who had never won the cup because he was playing for Argentina, and not perhaps a team like Germany had. Or France had, or Spain had.

But its hard to dispute, even for those applying the win the biggest prize metric, that Messi was the best on the planet.

Messier isn't better than McD because he had several cups. He had far better opportunity. Mess wasn't even the best player on his team until Gretz left. That shouldn't need mentioning.

 

[Fourier]

I'll also note the relative players paths to being prominent players were much different. For McD from the start he was pushing mountains at the NHL level. He got on track immediately and was that good.


Both you and I saw Messier in WHA where he couldn't score and was just young learning his craft. He didn't get untracked to top player production until having played in pro hockey around 4 seasons including WHA and NHL. Both Gretz and Mess got the underage benefit of experience playing with adult pros. A trial by fire that helped them grow their game at pro level and was advantage over the less competitive aspects they would have seen playing own age players. The induction of 16yr olds of course doesn't occur now. Its an apprenticeship not available to todays players.

Interesting as well, I point it out regularly in discussions that Mess wasn't even a premier player the first couple NHL seasons. He wasn't much first season and frankly Glenn Anderson gave him a lot of extra options, ideas, and helped Moose get on track. Mess was even often impressed with the skill, speed, fire of Anderson and loved having him on line. He saw a kindred spirit on the ice with Anderson. But all of Gretz, Anderson, Kurri initially had greater per game production than Mess early on.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

What Mess realized, and he states this sort of thing autobiographically its that the playing with the great one, and a great team motivated him to be the best player he could possibly be. He saw what was provided and he was around and it served as motivation to make every sacrifice.

Skill wise, talent wise, someone like Mike Gartner was a better player than Mess for most of careers but never had the option to play with the greatest player on Earth. Of course the latter is immensely motivating and so argument can be made that the presense of Wayne Gretzky caused a lot of the players around him, Kurri, Anderson, Lowe, Mess to be greater than they would otherwise be.

I exclude Coffey and Fuhr from this because they would've been great anywhere they landed. They were elite at their position with or without Gretz. Anderson would have been a gifted player anywhere but not to the degree he was here.

The bolded comments are exactly as I remember it. I have said this before that Messier was often in Sather's dog house early on. Gretzky was much more of a leader than he is given credit for and I really think without him that team may never have gelled into a championship squad.

I also think that McDavid's leadership qualities are under rated. Perhaps not in the overt way that Messier did but more in the manner that Gretzky led. McDavid has incredible drive and you can tell that he hates losing. I would point to his recovery from his ACL injury as evidence of the former. By all accounts he should have missed a good part of that year and may never have been back to his old self had he not worked like a madman that off season. His teammates obviously noticed. Moreover, he is constantly working to refine his game and add dimensions. That is something he has in common with Gretzky. Despite being the best he is never satisfied.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

The bolded comments are exactly as I remember it. I have said this before that Messier was often in Sather's dog house early on. Gretzky was much more of a leader than he is given credit for and I really think without him that team may never have gelled into a championship squad.

I also think that McDavid's leadership qualities are under rated. Perhaps not in the overt way that Messier did but more in the manner that Gretzky led. McDavid has incredible drive and you can tell that he hates losing. I would point to his recovery from his ACL injury as evidence of the former. By all accounts he should have missed a good part of that year and may never have been back to his old self had he not worked like a madman that off season. His teammates obviously noticed. Moreover, he is constantly working to refine his game and add dimensions. That is something he has in common with Gretzky. Despite being the best he is never satisfied.

Agree on your post. Can't underestimate Sather's importance as a mentor and ass kicker who formed the team dynamic out of raw putty youth talent, enthusiasm and brotherhood. And as fans we don't see the depth and breadth of leadership in action. It's easier to see it in fiery, demonstrative actions by 'Messier-types' but without question Gretzky was the galvanizer as their elite player. Same goes for McDavid as you rightfully cite his recovery from a prospective career ending injury but also the over and beyond single-mindedness year round commitment to pursue and manifest his potential and continue to find new margins to improve upon the super elite of elite rarity of who has played this game.

Gretzky and McDavid grew up in the spotlight from very young ages. Their personality types are not naturally demonstrative but they also know the camera and fans are watching so much of their leadership is far away from public eyes. I imagine it covers all types of cliche and otherwise leadership traits like by example, hard, direct conversations with others, fiery singlemindeness on team success and winning, salty boot in the ass emotion when the team requires it. These two burn like a white hot sun to compete and win. Might be hard for players to relate to their super elite skills but respect and follow the work boots each put into their game and pursuit of team success. Tons more nuance to leadership than one dimensional cliche stuff.

One of my favourite things when able to watch the Oilers live is to see McDavid hit the ice for warm up like he's fired out of a cannon. Full speed, focused with intensity and after laps a continual effort to work on his puck handling. How can his teammates not be inspired.

 

[Aerchon]

McDavid’s stats are putting him in conversation with Lemieux and Gretzky, not Messier. He will retire as one of the best 3 forwards of all time, cup or not.

Their finishes in the scoring race from their second season to their eigth:

Messier: T-75th, T-28th, Seventh, Twelfth, T-109th, T-23rd, T-3rd

McDavid: First, First, Second, Second, First, First, First

You chose McDavid, or you are wrong. Those are the 2 options.

Very misleading. You do realize McD plays an insane amount of minutes while Mess was basically on the 2nd line.
Let’s compare Cups while your at it. See how silly that is.

Messrules11 has the jist of it.

I value Messier impact on the game, especially in the playoffs where it matters.

You want scoring title? Maybe McDavid gets the most personal hardware of all time while never getting a cup... Where as Mess can will multiple teams to cups...

McDavid, skill wise, is the best player of all time imo. Does things at the highest speed possible. Unreal. But I trade him in a heartbeat for Messier in a apples to apples comparison of who has won more cups and impacts the game more to win them.

McDavid, hopefully will not be known as the greatest player of all time to never win a cup... I can't even imagine how embarrassing that would be for him... and with the cap his best chance is likely now with these Oiler rosters. If he goes somewhere else to get paid that team will have to drop a lot of talent to fit him on. Or they already suck have space and no chance of a cup.

The long and short of it. McDavid needs to be better to take his place amoung hockey greats because they have all won cups.

Sad but true. McDavid needs to be significantly better at impacting the game. He could put up a measly (for him) ppg pace in the playoffs but lead in backchecks and 5v5 goal differential to lead his team to a cup. Areas he is not as good as he could be.

 

[Sra1974]

Another reply that the "must win" metric to be considered great is generally short sighted fallacy . Until the latest WC win the argument was made against Messi, the premier footballer on the planet who had never won the cup because he was playing for Argentina, and not perhaps a team like Germany had. Or France had, or Spain had.

But its hard to dispute, even for those applying the win the biggest prize metric, that Messi was the best on the planet.

Messier isn't better than McD because he had several cups. He had far better opportunity. Mess wasn't even the best player on his team until Gretz left. That shouldn't need mentioning.

Fully fair points, I still think he’s gotta put one on the board for this old guy to let him past messier. There is zero debate he’s more skilled, but I’m looking at the arc and leaning Mess. But he doesn’t need 6, one probably tips this debate for me, and maybe when the end comes if the cup doesn’t land here I might see it differently.