Post-Game Talk: MDSF, Game 2: Flyers at Capitals, Saturday, April 16

[achdumeingute]

I also feel like our top 6 is overrated. Giroux, Simmonds, Voracek, Schenn and Couts are all legit top 6 fowards. Schenn and Simmonds are streaky. Voracek as well. The rest are better off on the 3rd line or not on the team at all. For instance Raffl would be a great player to have on your 3rd line. He's the only player. The rest like Gagne, Read, Umberger, White , VDV, and Bellemare aren't good enough. Then you have Cousins and Laughton who are undersized rookies/young players. I agree with you for the most part. I don't think Ghost isn't playing to a high level because of the players he's playing with. I think its more due to the fact that Washington is not going to let him become a factor in this series. They know how dangerous he is.

There isn't any time or space for the top players. Gotta give Washington credit. They are a superior team.

Id say its worse than that. Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds are mediocre 2nd line players at best (at this stage of their careers at least).

Look at SJS, they have Thorton, Marleau, Couture, Pavelski, and Hertl who I would consider all 1st line caliber forwards. We don't have that kind of organization depth, or talent. Our forwards are pretty much weak overall in the minors.

Its nice to make the playoffs and all, but I really wish this team went full Toronto. There are ALOT of really good forwards to draft this year. We need all the help we can get 3 years from now. Or, hopefully in 3 years we can get a useful 28yr old UFA.

 

[Curufinwe]

You should check on how many forwards out scored Schenn and Simmonds this season.

Three who didn't come close were Hertl, Marleau and Couture.

If you go by pace, Couture was pacing slightly below Schenn and Simmonds. But Couturier paced above Hertl and Marleau, and Marleau was -22.

It's actually on defense where San Jose has more talent.

 

[PensBrony 6 9*]

Id say its worse than that. Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds are mediocre 2nd line players at best (at this stage of their careers at least).

Look at SJS, they have Thorton, Marleau, Couture, Pavelski, and Hertl who I would consider all 1st line caliber forwards. We don't have that kind of organization depth, or talent. Our forwards are pretty much weak overall in the minors.

Its nice to make the playoffs and all, but I really wish this team went full Toronto. There are ALOT of really good forwards to draft this year. We need all the help we can get 3 years from now. Or, hopefully in 3 years we can get a useful 28yr old UFA.

The people who still hold this sad, unsubstantiated opinion that a team needs to tank for the better part of a decade to build a contender really need to just be honest with themselves and go root for edmonton already. If you'd rather spend multiple seasons watching an embarrassingly bad team go through the motions to collect top draft picks, that's where you belong. Especially after watching the sixers fail spectacularly using this same strategy in a league where you only need three players to win! I'm so tired of reading this garbage here. I thought it would stop once they made the playoffs and their top prospects started coming through to keep the momentum going forward. Looks like I was wrong and unless the flyers collect 10 first overall picks, no one will accept any kind of success. They'll deem it a negative and continue to pine for mcdavid, Matthews, or next year's iteration. Thank god the management doesn't seem to hold this view, although with snider gone there is some risk. Hopefully his successor has the same determination as he did and not the hopeless attitude of some posters on here.

 

[SuchySays]

Id say its worse than that. Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds are mediocre 2nd line players at best (at this stage of their careers at least).

lmfao. hahahahaha

 

[klutch]

It's pretty ridiculous for people to say anyone is overreacting to the amount of ice time Manning got last night. We're talking about a #6/7 who averaged 15:03 of ES TOI during the regular season.

Last night he lead the team with 21:02 in ES TOI. That's insane.

This HAS to be addressed.

 

[achdumeingute]

The people who still hold this sad, unsubstantiated opinion that a team needs to tank for the better part of a decade to build a contender really need to just be honest with themselves and go root for edmonton already. If you'd rather spend multiple seasons watching an embarrassingly bad team go through the motions to collect top draft picks, that's where you belong. Especially after watching the sixers fail spectacularly using this same strategy in a league where you only need three players to win! I'm so tired of reading this garbage here. I thought it would stop once they made the playoffs and their top prospects started coming through to keep the momentum going forward. Looks like I was wrong and unless the flyers collect 10 first overall picks, no one will accept any kind of success. They'll deem it a negative and continue to pine for mcdavid, Matthews, or next year's iteration. Thank god the management doesn't seem to hold this view, although with snider gone there is some risk. Hopefully his successor has the same determination as he did and not the hopeless attitude of some posters on here.

A decade is different than be bad for 2 years. For instance, we would be TOTALLY different if we had gotten Kane instead of JVR the ONE year we were terrible, and that was such a shallow draft.

Most of the cup winners the last 10 years have had one top 3 pick leading the team, I think Boston was the only one that wasn't in this scenario.

This is just a great draft to pick in the top 5.

And I am a fan, not management or on the team. OF course THEY cannot have this attitude.

And, I think anyone who believes this team has ANY chance this year, or next is just as misguided as you feel I am about directing moves to be good in 2+ more years.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

There's a clear drop off after the top three in this draft, some scouts would argue even after the top two with Matthews & Laine.

 

[achdumeingute]

You should check on how many forwards out scored Schenn and Simmonds this season.

Three who didn't come close were Hertl, Marleau and Couture.

If you go by pace, Couture was pacing slightly below Schenn and Simmonds. But Couturier paced above Hertl and Marleau, and Marleau was -22.

It's actually on defense where San Jose has more talent.

This is why I said at this stage, plenty of room for growth/decline.

Marleau is on the downside, but has had a GREAT career. He will probably put up more points in his career than any of our 3. He's more talented overall (high pick). I certainly would not trade any of our players for him at this point (context), but is he still a more dangerous player, probably.

Hertl, IMO is more talented than either of our young guys. He is able to drive play on his own. Were he forced to be first line, I think he'd be fine. Couturier has excellent vision, and with a legit scoring winger will put up points, but his shot is TERRIBLE, he is not an offensive goal scoring threat.

Schenn and Simmonds are both dirty goal/grinder types, not exactly talent laden forwards. Again, happy to have them both, and they certainly are good players. This is way less about them, and just the lack of OTHER talent on this roster.

Teams that do REALLY well in the playoffs have players that COULD be legit first line players playing on the second line. I don't see that with the forwards on this roster. Its going the other way for us, guys who would EXCEL on the 3rd line are being forced up because our roster depth just isn't there.

 

[achdumeingute]

There's a clear drop off after the top three in this draft, some scouts would argue even after the top two with Matthews & Laine.

Tkchuk (probably spelled wrong) will be very good, and so will the other fin guy.

 

[achdumeingute]

lmfao. hahahahaha

Do you believe any of these 3 truly belongs or can carry a first line in the NHL?

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Tkchuk (probably spelled wrong) will be very good, and so will the other fin guy.

I don't think either Tkachuk or Puljujarvi have franchise potential. Matthews & Laine are the only potential franchise changers in this draft IMO.

Tkachuk doesn't have the skating & Puljujarvi doesn't have the all around game so he's gonna have to out score that which I don't think he'll be able to do.

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

Simmonds, Schenn, Cooter, etc are all solid players; once they have some good blueliners to start the play and not always waste their energy backchecking; the offense will come...look at SJ's defense compared to ours; that's the reason their offense scores more; they have support...we do not.

Hockey is a team game and not individual play; the lack of skill on our backend makes our forwards suffer.

Id say its worse than that. Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds are mediocre 2nd line players at best (at this stage of their careers at least).

Look at SJS, they have Thorton, Marleau, Couture, Pavelski, and Hertl who I would consider all 1st line caliber forwards. We don't have that kind of organization depth, or talent. Our forwards are pretty much weak overall in the minors.

Its nice to make the playoffs and all, but I really wish this team went full Toronto. There are ALOT of really good forwards to draft this year. We need all the help we can get 3 years from now. Or, hopefully in 3 years we can get a useful 28yr old UFA.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Do you believe any of these 3 truly belongs or can carry a first line in the NHL?

Schenn and Simmonds are clearly first line players. Simmonds is 11th in scoring for RW's. Ahead of Phil Kessel, James Neal, Bobby Ryan, Oshie, Eberle, Hudler, Hossa, Hemsky. Schenn is listed as a center and even though he has not lined up as a Center I'll go ahead and use it anyway because it's easy to compare. He's tied for 20th in scoring as a Center, with Barkov. Just behind Spezza, Carter, Getzlaf, Krejci, Monahan, O'Reilly, Johansen. And ahead of Duchene, Brassard, Toews, Malkin, Koivu, Sedin, Kesler, Stepan, Mackinnon, Stastny.

If he were properly listed at wing he'd be tied for 11th at LW and 12th for RW's, with Huberdeau and Kessel respectively. A whole 1 point behind Simmonds.

 

[Striiker]

I also feel like our top 6 is overrated. Giroux, Simmonds, Voracek, Schenn and Couts are all legit top 6 fowards. Schenn and Simmonds are streaky. Voracek as well. The rest are better off on the 3rd line or not on the team at all. For instance Raffl would be a great player to have on your 3rd line. He's the only player. The rest like Gagne, Read, Umberger, White , VDV, and Bellemare aren't good enough. Then you have Cousins and Laughton who are undersized rookies/young players. I agree with you for the most part. I don't think Ghost isn't playing to a high level because of the players he's playing with. I think its more due to the fact that Washington is not going to let him become a factor in this series. They know how dangerous he is.

There isn't any time or space for the top players. Gotta give Washington credit. They are a superior team.

Yeah I'm not saying Washington has nothing to do with the lack of offense, they're a better team and they're shutting our players down. I'm just saying that since we know we have little offense to give we can't waste the offensive talent we do have by playing them with someone that has zero and contributes nothing. We have to load up what little skill we have together and have one solid punch instead of multiple weak ones. Ghost hasn't been great this series, the top line hasn't been great his series, but playing them together is the only chance we've got.

 

[Striiker]

Do you believe any of these 3 truly belongs or can carry a first line in the NHL?

You don't need to be able to carry the first line to be a first line player.

 

[achdumeingute]

Simmonds, Schenn, Cooter, etc are all solid players; once they have some good blueliners to start the play and not always waste their energy backchecking; the offense will come...look at SJ's defense compared to ours; that's the reason their offense scores more; they have support...we do not.

Hockey is a team game and not individual play; the lack of skill on our backend makes our forwards suffer.

I don't disagree with that statement, an improved blue line will greatly help this team.

 

[Hiesenberg]

This is very true. An improved and talented blue line will make the forwards life so much better. When we had Ghost/Gudas/MDZ/MDV playing, the offense was on cruise control. Then MDZ got hurt, MDV got benched and we are stuck with 4 guys who can't play and/or skate.

 

[Tripod]

A decade is different than be bad for 2 years. For instance, we would be TOTALLY different if we had gotten Kane instead of JVR the ONE year we were terrible, and that was such a shallow draft.

Most of the cup winners the last 10 years have had one top 3 pick leading the team, I think Boston was the only one that wasn't in this scenario.

This is just a great draft to pick in the top 5.

And I am a fan, not management or on the team. OF course THEY cannot have this attitude.

And, I think anyone who believes this team has ANY chance this year, or next is just as misguided as you feel I am about directing moves to be good in 2+ more years.

The only way for us to be that bad to get a high pick, is to trade away our best players. And they are still young

This is why I said at this stage, plenty of room for growth/decline.

Marleau is on the downside, but has had a GREAT career. He will probably put up more points in his career than any of our 3. He's more talented overall (high pick). I certainly would not trade any of our players for him at this point (context), but is he still a more dangerous player, probably.

Hertl, IMO is more talented than either of our young guys. He is able to drive play on his own. Were he forced to be first line, I think he'd be fine. Couturier has excellent vision, and with a legit scoring winger will put up points, but his shot is TERRIBLE, he is not an offensive goal scoring threat.

Schenn and Simmonds are both dirty goal/grinder types, not exactly talent laden forwards. Again, happy to have them both, and they certainly are good players. This is way less about them, and just the lack of OTHER talent on this roster.

Teams that do REALLY well in the playoffs have players that COULD be legit first line players playing on the second line. I don't see that with the forwards on this roster. Its going the other way for us, guys who would EXCEL on the 3rd line are being forced up because our roster depth just isn't there.

Teams that ALSO do well are ones that have #1 Dmen....like Burns. Oh..and Vlasic. Give us JUST THOSE 2 DMEN AND REMOVE MANNING AND STREIT. I bet we are much better...and they are much worse.

We all saw how our offense got better when Ghost arrived. Imagine the help it would be if we had Burns and Vlasic playing 25 minutes a night.

Our top 6 has played Washington pretty much even at ES. They have the edge on the PP. Problem is, our top 6 gets no help. Not from our bottom 6. Not from our D besides Ghost and the occasional Gudas games where he goes wild.

Plus, of our 5 top 6 forwards, 1 is hurt. And if our 2 top 4 D, 1 is hurt.

I swear, judging from some people's comments, we would have been better missing he playoffs instead of getting playoff experience against the leagues top team.

 

[achdumeingute]

Schenn and Simmonds are clearly first line players. Simmonds is 11th in scoring for RW's. Ahead of Phil Kessel, James Neal, Bobby Ryan, Oshie, Eberle, Hudler, Hossa, Hemsky. Schenn is listed as a center and even though he has not lined up as a Center I'll go ahead and use it anyway because it's easy to compare. He's tied for 20th in scoring as a Center, with Barkov. Just behind Spezza, Carter, Getzlaf, Krejci, Monahan, O'Reilly, Johansen. And ahead of Duchene, Brassard, Toews, Malkin, Koivu, Sedin, Kesler, Stepan, Mackinnon, Stastny.

If he were properly listed at wing he'd be tied for 11th at LW and 12th for RW's, with Huberdeau and Kessel respectively. A whole 1 point behind Simmonds.

I don't think points are a great example of judgement of a players roster worth.

Minutes/opportunity have an impact on the points you will score that isn't directly a correlation to your talent.

I mean, on the list you mention, there are players I would rather have than Schenn who scored lower than him.

 

[Hiesenberg]

This of a blue line in 2 years of:

Ghost
MDZ
Morin
Sanheim
Provorov
Gudas.

Can anybody honestly see that and not think that this team would be a good .5 goals for a game more and a .5 goals against less.

 

[Tripod]

And I will add....Hextall is building from the net out. We have our d and goalie pipeline in place. Now he will fill up the forwards.

Us winning a possible cup will be on the backs of our D that is coming, not on our current forward group. Some will be important, others won't be here.

Hextall has a plan and has cleaned up a lot of garbage contracts and filled in stopgap guys. Trust the process.

 

[achdumeingute]

And I will add....Hextall is building from the net out. We have our d and goalie pipeline in place. Now he will fill up the forwards.

Us winning a possible cup will be on the backs of our D that is coming, not on our current forward group. Some will be important, others won't be here.

Hextall has a plan and has cleaned up a lot of garbage contracts and filled in stopgap guys. Trust the process.

I mostly agree with you, However, I do think we need 1 more top end natural goal scorer.

 

[Tripod]

I mostly agree with you, However, I do think we need 1 more top end natural goal scorer.

That....I agree with. I said before we lack natural shooters.

But we are never going to be bad enough to get it thru the draft with a high pick. We need to get lucky where ever we pick...or get it thru trade. In a perfect world, both.

Gauthier could be available with our pick. Who knows.

But again, we don't NEED to add that guy for next year because we are still waiting on all the other pieces to develop. Would I like it immediately thru trade? Yup. But I don't expect it.

 

[PALE PWNR]

Hopefully Konecny can be that

 

[gto64dr]

Sure, The Caps are a more talented team. But that's not the reason we're down 2 - 0. It comes down to 2 guys, Holtby and Mason. We have given them all they can handle at times, but their shining star has been Holtby. Game 2 was lost in the first period, we gave everything we had and should have been ahead, but he stoned us. Then Mason got beat on shot 4. That was bad enough, but we were still in it. But to give it all and be stoned time and again and then have that putrid shot go in, it was over at that point. I give them credit that they finally scored, but then two short siders after that, ugh.

As good as Mason has been, he was BAD last night. No, that game was on him. Sorry, that just can't happen. Holtby hasn't let it happen to his team, Mason let it happen to his. Maybe he's hurt or burned out, he did carry a heavy load for a while at the end of the season.

For some reason Mason plays and he doesn't get as much goal support as Nuervirth. I thinks it's time to start Nuevirth, at this point we have nothing to lose.