McLaughlin Division Final: #1 London Bandits vs. #2 Queen's University Golden Gaels
- Thread starter VanIslander
- Start date
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
London Bandits
Coach: Emile "The Cat" Francis
Red Green - Guy Chouinard - Jiri Lala
Danny Lewicki - Mike Bullard - Steve Sullivan
Jörgen Pettersson- Michal Handzus - Alexander Skvortsov
Colin Patterson - Todd Marchant - Randy McKay (A)
Olli Jokinen, Rob Zamuner
Alexei Zhitnik (A) - Bob Trapp
Mark Streit (C) - Percy Traub
Arthur Moore - Marek Zidlicky
Joel Quenneville
Reggie Lemelin
Niklas Backstrom
Coach: Emile "The Cat" Francis
Red Green - Guy Chouinard - Jiri Lala
Danny Lewicki - Mike Bullard - Steve Sullivan
Jörgen Pettersson- Michal Handzus - Alexander Skvortsov
Colin Patterson - Todd Marchant - Randy McKay (A)
Olli Jokinen, Rob Zamuner
Alexei Zhitnik (A) - Bob Trapp
Mark Streit (C) - Percy Traub
Arthur Moore - Marek Zidlicky
Joel Quenneville
Reggie Lemelin
Niklas Backstrom
PP1: Red Green - Mike Bullard - Jiri Lala - Mark Streit - Guy Chouinard
PP2: Danny Lewicki - Steve Sullivan - Randy McKay - Alexei Zhitnik - Marek Zidlicky
PK1: Todd Marchant - Colin Patterson - Alexei Zhitnik - Bob Trapp
PK2: Michal Handzus - Jörgen Pettersson - Arthur Moore - Percy Traub
PK3: Steve Sullivan - Danny Lewicki - Alexei Zhitnik - Bob Trapp
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Two teams built in very different ways.
London has a an offensively dominant first line, a two-way second line that leans more towards offense, a two-way third line that leans more towards defense, and a shutdown/energy 4th line (though Randy McKay is capable of a clutch goal here and there).
Queens went for a more balanced approach at forward - every line provides some amount of offense and defense, though there is no line that is really dominant in either. Colville, Libbett, and Dahlen are all weak offensively for your typical scoring lines, but they are there to facilitate Jacques Martin's two-way puck possession game.
On D, London has 3 balanced pairs. The Zhitnik-Trapp pair is definitely more defense than offense oriented, but both guys have better offensive resumes than Phillips or Volchenkov, which is strictly a shut down pair.
_______________________________
I expect this series to be quite close. Special Teams might make a difference, and that's where I think London has a big advantage.
VI didn't post special teams for Queen's, but given his personnel, I expect him to have a strong PK with Phillips/Volchenkov as the top PK pair and a variety of defensively conscious forwards. But London also has a strong PK, with Zhitnik and Trapp both very good defensively and physically strong, and prolific PKing forwards, most notably Marchant, C Patterson, Handzus, and Sullivan.
Queen's emphasis on two-way forwards and defensive defensemen is a detriment to their powerplay, I think. Again, VI hasn't posted a unit, but I don't see Queen's coming up with a unit nearly as strong as London's first PP unit (described in detail here). Chouinard and Zidlicky provide a right handed shot for each unit.
London has a an offensively dominant first line, a two-way second line that leans more towards offense, a two-way third line that leans more towards defense, and a shutdown/energy 4th line (though Randy McKay is capable of a clutch goal here and there).
Queens went for a more balanced approach at forward - every line provides some amount of offense and defense, though there is no line that is really dominant in either. Colville, Libbett, and Dahlen are all weak offensively for your typical scoring lines, but they are there to facilitate Jacques Martin's two-way puck possession game.
On D, London has 3 balanced pairs. The Zhitnik-Trapp pair is definitely more defense than offense oriented, but both guys have better offensive resumes than Phillips or Volchenkov, which is strictly a shut down pair.
_______________________________
I expect this series to be quite close. Special Teams might make a difference, and that's where I think London has a big advantage.
VI didn't post special teams for Queen's, but given his personnel, I expect him to have a strong PK with Phillips/Volchenkov as the top PK pair and a variety of defensively conscious forwards. But London also has a strong PK, with Zhitnik and Trapp both very good defensively and physically strong, and prolific PKing forwards, most notably Marchant, C Patterson, Handzus, and Sullivan.
Queen's emphasis on two-way forwards and defensive defensemen is a detriment to their powerplay, I think. Again, VI hasn't posted a unit, but I don't see Queen's coming up with a unit nearly as strong as London's first PP unit (described in detail here). Chouinard and Zidlicky provide a right handed shot for each unit.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Good analysis. 
Your team's better powerplay may be an advantage in the regular season and in some playoff series but least so against this Golden Gaels squad of penalty killers. Goaltending and team chemistry might be the difference.
It'll be close.
Playoff clutch play and championship experience might be the difference as well.
The Bandits' so-called dominant top line has a 4-year regular season NHL pro Green with exactly one playoff game of experience; Chouinard has one very good passing playoffs run to the conference finals and one other early exit decent performance in nine postseasons of work. And Lala has three great world championships and a 1981 Canada Cup wherein Lala scored 4 goals while the Golden Gaels Shepelev in the same Canada Cup scored 6 goals, all against Canada and the Czechoslovakians, not against lesser opponents either. Barlow scored the first ever Stanley Cup winning playoff goal, his second of that game, and was key in two other important Stanley cup games, the hero the year before in scoring the winner late in the season when the cup went to the team with the best record. And the third Golden Gael also has clutch playoff scoring experience as Mac scored more goals than brother Neil in their Stanley Cup championship, 3 goals, one short of Hextall's team leading 4, as the Rangers took the 1940 cup with BALANCED scoring, five players tying Mac with 3 goals apiece. This is how this Queen's team is also built. So, you can see, just comparing top lines, the Golden Gaels have a clear EDGE in playoff scoring and championship experience. The same could be done to the other lines.
The Bandits' Lewicki as a 19 year old won the cup with 0 points in 9 games, Patterson has a significant playoffs with 10 assists in the Calgary Flames cup winning run but he is playing with Marchant on the bottom line, where Todd scored 0 goals and 3 assists in the Ducks cup winning run, though McKay scored 8 in the Devils first cup as a scoring line grinder on a very different team style than London's, though Patterson to MacKay ought to combine to put in a few goals in the postseason.
The Golden Gaels' Dahlen scored 8 points in a Stanley cup finals run in Minnesota, 2nd in team goals with 6 the playoffs in which the Sharks came within one game of the finals. Burridge was third in team assists with 10 plus was a key intangible component of the Bruins 1988 Stanley Cup finals appearance and repeated his role two postseasons later with 11 assists and more accolades for clutch play as the Bruins went to the Stanley Cup finals in 1990 again. The Golden Gaels Pivonka scored a team tying high 13 points in a game 7 conference finals run against Burridge's Bruins in '88. The Golden Gaels' Larochelle scored timely goals in both Stanley cup championships for Montreal in back-to-back postseason triumphs to go with his renowned checking ability. And Sharp led his team in shots and tied the lead in goals with 11 the postseason they won the stanley cup. This has been a look at significant play in important postseasons for the NHL forwards of each squad, and Queen's has an edge in this department.
As further evidence will continue to show, London is built more for the regular season; Queen's more for the playoffs.
Your team's better powerplay may be an advantage in the regular season and in some playoff series but least so against this Golden Gaels squad of penalty killers. Goaltending and team chemistry might be the difference.
It'll be close.
Playoff clutch play and championship experience might be the difference as well.
The Bandits' so-called dominant top line has a 4-year regular season NHL pro Green with exactly one playoff game of experience; Chouinard has one very good passing playoffs run to the conference finals and one other early exit decent performance in nine postseasons of work. And Lala has three great world championships and a 1981 Canada Cup wherein Lala scored 4 goals while the Golden Gaels Shepelev in the same Canada Cup scored 6 goals, all against Canada and the Czechoslovakians, not against lesser opponents either. Barlow scored the first ever Stanley Cup winning playoff goal, his second of that game, and was key in two other important Stanley cup games, the hero the year before in scoring the winner late in the season when the cup went to the team with the best record. And the third Golden Gael also has clutch playoff scoring experience as Mac scored more goals than brother Neil in their Stanley Cup championship, 3 goals, one short of Hextall's team leading 4, as the Rangers took the 1940 cup with BALANCED scoring, five players tying Mac with 3 goals apiece. This is how this Queen's team is also built. So, you can see, just comparing top lines, the Golden Gaels have a clear EDGE in playoff scoring and championship experience. The same could be done to the other lines.
The Bandits' Lewicki as a 19 year old won the cup with 0 points in 9 games, Patterson has a significant playoffs with 10 assists in the Calgary Flames cup winning run but he is playing with Marchant on the bottom line, where Todd scored 0 goals and 3 assists in the Ducks cup winning run, though McKay scored 8 in the Devils first cup as a scoring line grinder on a very different team style than London's, though Patterson to MacKay ought to combine to put in a few goals in the postseason.
The Golden Gaels' Dahlen scored 8 points in a Stanley cup finals run in Minnesota, 2nd in team goals with 6 the playoffs in which the Sharks came within one game of the finals. Burridge was third in team assists with 10 plus was a key intangible component of the Bruins 1988 Stanley Cup finals appearance and repeated his role two postseasons later with 11 assists and more accolades for clutch play as the Bruins went to the Stanley Cup finals in 1990 again. The Golden Gaels Pivonka scored a team tying high 13 points in a game 7 conference finals run against Burridge's Bruins in '88. The Golden Gaels' Larochelle scored timely goals in both Stanley cup championships for Montreal in back-to-back postseason triumphs to go with his renowned checking ability. And Sharp led his team in shots and tied the lead in goals with 11 the postseason they won the stanley cup. This has been a look at significant play in important postseasons for the NHL forwards of each squad, and Queen's has an edge in this department.
As further evidence will continue to show, London is built more for the regular season; Queen's more for the playoffs.
Last edited:
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
"Clutch play" from London
First off, I don't think you can totally decouple playoff performances from the much larger sample of regular season performances. If that was all that mattered, we'd all pick Claude Lemieux and George Armstrong over Marcel Dionne and Andy Bathgate, right?
I do think playoff performances (and the equivalent World Championships/Olympics for non-NHL Euros) do demonstrate how a player is able to handle the pressure of a big moment. I would certainly not want to have Marcel Dionne as my go-to guy in the ATD, but using his talent in a complimentary role where he won't be the focus of the other team's best checkers? Yes, please.
I do think London has a good amount of proven clutch play sprinkled throughout the lineup. Here are some notes on the playoff performances of some of our players (or International Tournaments to the non-NHL Europeans, for whom winning a Gold Medal was more or less the equivalent of winning a Stanley Cup):
Jiri Lala
This was not the strong Czechoslovakian team of the 1970s. Pretty much only Milan Novy was left among ATD-capable guys. Novy won the Czech league scoring title in both 1981 and 1982, but Lala outscored him in the World Championships.
Alexander Skvortsov
Todd Marchant
-He was injured for much of the 2007 Cup run and played a lesser role than usual (mostly just a PK specialist. But in 2006, he had 13 points in 16 games, and led the Ducks in postseason assists with 10.
Colin Patterson
-Stanley Cup in 1989 (13 points in 22 playoff games)
-His teams (Calgary and Buffalo) made the playoffs in all 9 seasons of his career, advancing to the 2nd round on 5 occasions and to the finals twice.
Randy McKay
In the 2001 ECFs, when the Devils stacked the checking line to go against the Mario Lemieux/Jaromir Jagr line (in the end, sweeping the Penguins), McKay stayed on Holik’s RW and John Madden was moved to the LW.
Alexei Zhitnik
Mark Streit
Streit's playoff record is incomplete, at best. But he didn't come to the NHL until he was 30. This is what he did in International Tournaments for the non-powerhouse Swiss team:
Streit was also captain of the Swiss Team in the 2006 and 2010 Olympics, where they played with a never-quit attitude against teams that outmatched them on paper.
Arthur Moore
First Team All-Star (1905), the only year that we found records for All-Star Teams from the era, which shows that he wasn't just along for the ride. (Quotes indicate that he was known as a physical, defensive defenseman).
First off, I don't think you can totally decouple playoff performances from the much larger sample of regular season performances. If that was all that mattered, we'd all pick Claude Lemieux and George Armstrong over Marcel Dionne and Andy Bathgate, right?
I do think playoff performances (and the equivalent World Championships/Olympics for non-NHL Euros) do demonstrate how a player is able to handle the pressure of a big moment. I would certainly not want to have Marcel Dionne as my go-to guy in the ATD, but using his talent in a complimentary role where he won't be the focus of the other team's best checkers? Yes, please.
I do think London has a good amount of proven clutch play sprinkled throughout the lineup. Here are some notes on the playoff performances of some of our players (or International Tournaments to the non-NHL Europeans, for whom winning a Gold Medal was more or less the equivalent of winning a Stanley Cup):
Jiri Lala
This was not the strong Czechoslovakian team of the 1970s. Pretty much only Milan Novy was left among ATD-capable guys. Novy won the Czech league scoring title in both 1981 and 1982, but Lala outscored him in the World Championships.
Alexander Skvortsov
He did this, despite not being a member of a famed 5 man unit brought over from the Red Army or other Moscow-based team (he played for Gorky Torpedo).
Todd Marchant
-He was injured for much of the 2007 Cup run and played a lesser role than usual (mostly just a PK specialist. But in 2006, he had 13 points in 16 games, and led the Ducks in postseason assists with 10.
Colin Patterson
-Stanley Cup in 1989 (13 points in 22 playoff games)
-His teams (Calgary and Buffalo) made the playoffs in all 9 seasons of his career, advancing to the 2nd round on 5 occasions and to the finals twice.
Randy McKay
In the 2001 ECFs, when the Devils stacked the checking line to go against the Mario Lemieux/Jaromir Jagr line (in the end, sweeping the Penguins), McKay stayed on Holik’s RW and John Madden was moved to the LW.
Alexei Zhitnik
Mark Streit
Streit's playoff record is incomplete, at best. But he didn't come to the NHL until he was 30. This is what he did in International Tournaments for the non-powerhouse Swiss team:
Streit was also captain of the Swiss Team in the 2006 and 2010 Olympics, where they played with a never-quit attitude against teams that outmatched them on paper.
Arthur Moore
First Team All-Star (1905), the only year that we found records for All-Star Teams from the era, which shows that he wasn't just along for the ride. (Quotes indicate that he was known as a physical, defensive defenseman).
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Guys who didn't have the chance to show what they could do in the playoffs
At the AAA level, where we are mostly drafting secondary stars, guys who can't carry a team on their back (if they could, they'd be in the main draft, right?), I think lack of playoff success is often a case of being a victim of circumstances as much as anything.
Here some guys who I think were victims of circumstances, more than anything else. Perhaps question marks, but certainly not poor playoff performers. This isn't an exhaustive list, but I just thought these were interesting cases:
Red Green
-In his best season (1924-25), his team - the Hamilton Tigers - were a favorite to win the Stanley Cup, but the players had a strike before the playoffs and could never compete. Interesting note that Red Green's brother, Shorty Green, got into the HHOF largely for his role in the strike. The strike ended leading to the end of hockey in Hamilton, and Green spent the rest of his NHL career stuck on a terrible NY Americans team, save one final hurrah with the Bruins in 1928-29, where he played a bit part on a Cup champion.
Guy Choiunard and Mike Bullard
Both guys who played when the NHL was extremely imbalanced in the late 70s and early 80s. Choinard's Atlanta/Calgary Flames of the late 70s and early 80s would barely made the playoffs with a losing record, before losing in the preliminary round (usually in a best of 3 series), save for one decent run where Choinard had 17 points in 16 games.
Bullard's prime came on the terrible Pittsburgh Penguins of the early-mid 80s, who were lucky to even make the playoffs. This was a team that had trouble making the playoffs once they added Mario Lemieux, so you can imagine how bad they were beforehand.
Neither of these guys is a proven playoff warrior, but both are more victims of playing on teams that never had a chance I think. Sure, neither guy could carry a terrible team, but that's why they didn't get drafted in the main ATD!
They were drafted for their natural talent, and then surrounded by players who know how to win.
Danny Lewicki
-Dashin' Danny Lewicki is the only player in hockey history to have won a Memorial Cup, Allan Cup and Stanley Cup while still a junior.
-Lewicki was pressed into service on the orders of Conn Smythe, although he was not healed. To play he had to have his groin muscle frozen and taped before each game. Instead of being able to contribute as a scorer, Lewicki would play a checking role in the playoffs. The Leafs would defeat the Montreal Canadiens in the final 4–1 to win the Stanley Cup.
To me, the fact that Lewicki was able to modify his speedy, scoring game to play a checking role on a Cup winner when he was injured shows a lot of versatility.
Soon after, Toronto traded Lewicki to the NY Rangers. This was the early 1950s, when Montreal, Detroit, and Toronto were far better than the other three teams and would steamroll whichever of Boston/New York/Chicago happened to make the playoffs, so Lewicki never had a chance to build up a playoff resume in a scoring role.
At the AAA level, where we are mostly drafting secondary stars, guys who can't carry a team on their back (if they could, they'd be in the main draft, right?), I think lack of playoff success is often a case of being a victim of circumstances as much as anything.
Here some guys who I think were victims of circumstances, more than anything else. Perhaps question marks, but certainly not poor playoff performers. This isn't an exhaustive list, but I just thought these were interesting cases:
Red Green
-In his best season (1924-25), his team - the Hamilton Tigers - were a favorite to win the Stanley Cup, but the players had a strike before the playoffs and could never compete. Interesting note that Red Green's brother, Shorty Green, got into the HHOF largely for his role in the strike. The strike ended leading to the end of hockey in Hamilton, and Green spent the rest of his NHL career stuck on a terrible NY Americans team, save one final hurrah with the Bruins in 1928-29, where he played a bit part on a Cup champion.
Guy Choiunard and Mike Bullard
Both guys who played when the NHL was extremely imbalanced in the late 70s and early 80s. Choinard's Atlanta/Calgary Flames of the late 70s and early 80s would barely made the playoffs with a losing record, before losing in the preliminary round (usually in a best of 3 series), save for one decent run where Choinard had 17 points in 16 games.
Bullard's prime came on the terrible Pittsburgh Penguins of the early-mid 80s, who were lucky to even make the playoffs. This was a team that had trouble making the playoffs once they added Mario Lemieux, so you can imagine how bad they were beforehand.
Neither of these guys is a proven playoff warrior, but both are more victims of playing on teams that never had a chance I think. Sure, neither guy could carry a terrible team, but that's why they didn't get drafted in the main ATD!
They were drafted for their natural talent, and then surrounded by players who know how to win.
Danny Lewicki
-Dashin' Danny Lewicki is the only player in hockey history to have won a Memorial Cup, Allan Cup and Stanley Cup while still a junior.
-Lewicki was pressed into service on the orders of Conn Smythe, although he was not healed. To play he had to have his groin muscle frozen and taped before each game. Instead of being able to contribute as a scorer, Lewicki would play a checking role in the playoffs. The Leafs would defeat the Montreal Canadiens in the final 4–1 to win the Stanley Cup.
To me, the fact that Lewicki was able to modify his speedy, scoring game to play a checking role on a Cup winner when he was injured shows a lot of versatility.
Soon after, Toronto traded Lewicki to the NY Rangers. This was the early 1950s, when Montreal, Detroit, and Toronto were far better than the other three teams and would steamroll whichever of Boston/New York/Chicago happened to make the playoffs, so Lewicki never had a chance to build up a playoff resume in a scoring role.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
Claude Lemieux certainly has more value in playoff matchups than he would when ranking teams in the regular season.
Green, Chouinard, Bullard might be 'victims of circumstance' as you put it, and are certainly question marks as to the playoffs. This is relevant given how you touted London's top-6 offensive prowess compared to Queen's and yet the edge goes to the Golden Gaels in terms of playoff experience, heroics and big game performances against the highest level of competition in terms of the forward core.
You do show Zhitnik and Streit as giving the Bandits blueline valuable playoff perfomances and tourney experience. The Golden Gaels have the Ottawa duo who shutdown Crosby in the postseason and a pair of Soviet rearguards on the USSR's dominant winning national team for a decade in Canada Cups, Olympics and world championships.
High pressure, big game, playoff experience and success of the Queen's netminder is undeniable and an edge over London's starter. And the Golden Gaels backup knows how to come off the bench in the Stanley Cup finals and play a legendary game, as he's been there, done that.
My point stands: London is built more for the regular season, Queen's more for the playoffs. London is a deserving #1 seed for the regular season, but whether that translates into playoff success is another matter. For sure, Golden Gaels coach Martin sure knows how to win in the playoffs against better offense (was a coaching marvel over Washington and Pittsburgh in the 2010 playoffs) and this Queen's squad was built to give the coach the tools he needs to execute his game plan.
Dreakmur
Registered User
You can't pick one good season and ignore the rest here...
Chris Phillips was a big part of the biggest choker team in recent memory. Volchenkov came a few years later, but still took part in quite a few bed-****tings. Who was the coach of that team anyway? Oh yeah, Jacques Martin, who was always viewed as a guy who just coudn't win when it matters. Those Ottawa teams almost always failed to meet play-off expectations, and those guys all played a significant role in those failures.
Sure they eventually put together a good run, but that's only after a whole bunch of disappointments. None of those guys should be viewed as good play-off performers. In fact, they should probably be viewed as poor ones.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
If one should limit one's crediting an individual for a team win then one should be doubly limit one's blaming an individual for a team's loss. Martin has coached 7 winning series in 11 postseasons and so that cup's half full. The blueline duo can't at all be blamed for playoff scoring droughts in Ottawa. The duo played poorly in all but one postseason? Are you gonna provide evidence of that other than team failure to win the cup? I guess I should dig up some playoff references to their postseason performances, as the defensive defensemen were not to blame for Sens playoff failures. We'll have to agree to disagree in the meantime. (I brought up the duo's effectiveness against Crosby as evidence of their ABILITY to do so in the postseason, when it matters most against the best in the world.)
overpass
Registered User
- Jun 7, 2007
- 5,271
- 2,808
During Ottawa's poor playoff years, Ottawa fans always considered Chris Phillips to be one of the few players who maintained or raised his level of play in the playoffs. He's never been someone who could be described as a playoff choker.
Unfortunately, history will probably remember for him for that one own goal in the Finals more than anything, similar to Steve Smith.
VanIslander
A 19-year ATDer on HfBoards
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Great series, VI. I certainly wouldn't have been surprised to see this one go either way, and seven games seems right.
A little surprised at the 3 stars - Partly Lemelin being a bigger star than Lala. But mainly, out of all the great players on your team, your biggest star was Ulf Dahlen?
You know what? On second thought, I like it. It's much more realistic than the ATD where the 3 stars are almost always the first three players drafted in order.
A little surprised at the 3 stars - Partly Lemelin being a bigger star than Lala. But mainly, out of all the great players on your team, your biggest star was Ulf Dahlen?
You know what? On second thought, I like it. It's much more realistic than the ATD where the 3 stars are almost always the first three players drafted in order.
MadArcand
Whaletarded
I never ever vote for the best players, but rather players who I feel would have most impact on the series. I voted Dahlen. I also voted for McKay 
Ad
Latest posts
-
-
Post-Game Talk: Hit em with the 4 like AM34. Leafs lose 4th straight game 7 to Boston: 2-1
- Latest: JT AM da real deal
-
-
Upcoming events
-
Game 7 Orlando Magic @ Cleveland Cavaliers - Series tied 3-3Wagers: 4Staked: $6,545.00Event closes- Updated:
-
-
GAME 6 - London Knights @ Saginaw Spirit - London Knights leads series 3-2Wagers: 1Staked: $25.00Event closes- Updated:
-
GAME 6 - Oshawa Generals @ North Bay Battalion - Oshawa Generals leads series 3-2Wagers: 1Staked: $25.00Event closes
- Updated:
-
