Mats Sundin HHOF worthiness

[Dalton]

There's no doubt he's worthy IMHO.

A long career of consistent ppg or close to it seasons, a long stretch leading the league in GW goals, team captain, 1st Euro as a no. 1 pick,
best career stats for an original 6 team, responsible 2 way game, always matched against the opponents top line.

A classic case. No brainer. Not if but when.

 

[God Bless Canada]

He's a slam dunk. His international totals don't mean anything to the voters. With very few exceptions, it's been the NHL HOF for half a century. Don't deceive yourself into thinking otherwise. It's great that he won an Olympic gold medal, and was an all-star at the 1996 World Cup, but those don't matter much to the voters. And few on the committee care about the World Championships. Most view it for what it is: a consolation prize for those eliminated from the Stanley Cup playoffs.

The biggest asset that Sundin has going for him was that he was the most consistently elite player among his peers. And for a committee with coaches, executives and players, that's huge. Toronto fans will tell you how reassuring it was to have Sundin on the team in a one-goal or a tie game in the third, if he didn't have a point up to that point. And as someone who isn't a Leafs fan, I knew what a frightening position it was. Some players score in bunches to get to their point total each year. Sundin was like clockwork. He rarely seemed to slump. He rarely seemed to have an off night.

The playoff numbers weren't great for a player of his calibre, but here's one thing worth noting: his career goals-per-game clip was close to the same in the playoffs as it was in the regular season. His assist clip dropped, and I think that's reflective of his lack of supporting cast in Toronto. We all knew the truth: stop Sundin, you stop the Leafs offence. And while he still found ways to score goals, his supporting cast didn't back him up in the post-season. A very knowledgeable friend of mine who has played and coached at high levels used to call him "Unseen Sundin" in the playoffs. And while he didn't elevate his game in the post-season, he didn't have much help, either.

Yes, there are other reasons to induct him. The face of the Leafs factor. The Leaf scoring records factor. The 500 goals for Canadian teams factor. (Sundin is, I believe, one of five players to score 500 goals while playing for Canadian team. The others? Gretzky, Lafleur, Richard and Beliveau. Obscure stat, but great company). But as a player, I believe he should be remembered for "bringing it" on a nightly basis to a degree that nobody else did. We're evaluating professional hockey players. When evaluating pros, consistency is a very big word.

First ballot. Sundin. Sakic. Shanahan. There won't be a Mark Howe or a Doug Gilmour included next year - deserving guys who had to wait a while. They'll go with the three first ballot aces.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He's a slam dunk. His international totals don't mean anything to the voters. With very few exceptions, it's been the NHL HOF for half a century. Don't deceive yourself into thinking otherwise. It's great that he won an Olympic gold medal, and was an all-star at the 1996 World Cup, but those don't matter much to the voters. And few on the committee care about the World Championships. Most view it for what it is: a consolation prize for those eliminated from the Stanley Cup playoffs.

The biggest asset that Sundin has going for him was that he was the most consistently elite player among his peers. And for a committee with coaches, executives and players, that's huge. Toronto fans will tell you how reassuring it was to have Sundin on the team in a one-goal or a tie game in the third, if he didn't have a point up to that point. And as someone who isn't a Leafs fan, I knew what a frightening position it was. Some players score in bunches to get to their point total each year. Sundin was like clockwork. He rarely seemed to slump. He rarely seemed to have an off night.

The playoff numbers weren't great for a player of his calibre, but here's one thing worth noting: his career goals-per-game clip was close to the same in the playoffs as it was in the regular season. His assist clip dropped, and I think that's reflective of his lack of supporting cast in Toronto. We all knew the truth: stop Sundin, you stop the Leafs offence. And while he still found ways to score goals, his supporting cast didn't back him up in the post-season. A very knowledgeable friend of mine who has played and coached at high levels used to call him "Unseen Sundin" in the playoffs. And while he didn't elevate his game in the post-season, he didn't have much help, either.

Yes, there are other reasons to induct him. The face of the Leafs factor. The Leaf scoring records factor. The 500 goals for Canadian teams factor. (Sundin is, I believe, one of five players to score 500 goals while playing for Canadian team. The others? Gretzky, Lafleur, Richard and Beliveau. Obscure stat, but great company). But as a player, I believe he should be remembered for "bringing it" on a nightly basis to a degree that nobody else did. We're evaluating professional hockey players. When evaluating pros, consistency is a very big word.

First ballot. Sundin. Sakic. Shanahan. There won't be a Mark Howe or a Doug Gilmour included next year - deserving guys who had to wait a while. They'll go with the three first ballot aces.

Why should the bolded matter? I realize that it actually does matter to the HHOF, but why should it make a difference that Sundin's team happened to be the Maple Leafs and that team happened to be located in Canada?

I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of what you wrote.

 

[Killion]

Why should the bolded matter? I realize that it actually does matter to the HHOF, but why should it make a difference that Sundin's team happened to be the Maple Leafs and that team happened to be located in Canada?

I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of what you wrote.

Well, lets just take a look at the very interesting point youve just raised TDMM.

As we know, HNIC pretty much caters to the Leafs schedule & broadcasts accordingly. Is it just me, you, or the Man on the Moon that doesnt see a direct correlation between some decent to good but nonetheless not great Leafs being given a bye into the HHOF simply because of the microscopic effects of television in overblowing their touchstone resumes' for the masses?. Honestly, its like dealing with recipients of a Trust Fund at times. Dont get me wrong, Im a Leafs fan, but Im also a realist, and even I have a problem with Sundin. Hell, I'd have a problem with Gilmour if not for his career in total... I still have a problem with a number of inducted Leaf players (and that includes the precious Johnny Bower). How do you you fix something thats busted if your not honest with yourself & everyone else Leaf/Sundin fans?. I swear, some of this stuff makes me embarrassed to call Toronto my place of yoot. Or "yoots", as in Joe Pesci & dysfunction... no sense whatsoever.

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

Sundin should get in before Recchi imho.

 

[Pear Juice]

As for Sundin, I am stll against it though just barely......Captain or no, he had character issues that stood out to me. You say this would not have happened if you were not a huge Bourque fan and a huge Boston fan. That is true but the whole stringing Tortonto out to dry under false pretenses did not play well with me either nor did some of his play in Toronto or Quebec.

It was Toronto's management who wanted to force Sundin out of the club despite him having served them for 13 years. After all that time leading the club he was nothing more than just an asset? And somehow he is the one who gets slammed for it?

I will never fully understand American pro-sports.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It was Toronto's management who wanted to force Sundin out of the club despite him having served them for 13 years. After all that time leading the club he was nothing more than just an asset? And somehow he is the one who gets slammed for it?

I will never fully understand American pro-sports.

Just think, "Money is God and there are no other gods."

That should make your understanding a little clearer.

 

[Pear Juice]

Just think, "Money is God and there are no other gods."

That should make your understanding a little clearer.

I do know. It's just so vastly different from over here, which maybe is part of the allure aswell...

 

[Dalton]

Fwiw If i was working under the money is God Premise I would have had no problems with a fading star getting what he could get. The way he flip flopped and then showed up on the world poker tour during the interim just bothers me....World Poker Tour, talk about money is God.......

Maybe the Leafs should put an asterisk beside his name in their record books?

 

[Oowatanite]

I would say no. He was good but never great.

 

[vezna*]

if he didn't play for the Leafs... probably not. good thing he did

The Toronto effect has been around for years and will continue to exist as long as the HHOF does. I want to make an analogy here but cant think of one that fits the example. Its an old boy network of sorts and always will be one. From Duff to Gilmour the status of Toronto players has been elevated because they played for Toronto in a way that one can probably only compare to Montreal post expansion. Montreal has the cups to back up their status. The Islanders and Gillies might also come into this discussion as I do not think cup counting is of much use for HHOF inductions....Anyway Montreal has the cups, Toronto has thier place as the bastion of English-Canadian hockey. Ps Gilmour deserved induction but being a Leaf obviously never hurts. As for Sundin, I am stll against it though just barely......Captain or no, he had character issues that stood out to me. You say this would not have happened if you were not a huge Bourque fan and a huge Boston fan. That is true but the whole stringing Tortonto out to dry under false pretenses did not play well with me either nor did some of his play in Toronto or Quebec.

not really seeing this conspiracy theory thing going through, but i think one reason the Toronto effect works is because of how the limelight is on the team day in and day out. achievements by great players in Toronto are multiplied because of how popular the team is. you can't be a good player in Toronto and be "underrated" in the league.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Why should the bolded matter? I realize that it actually does matter to the HHOF, but why should it make a difference that Sundin's team happened to be the Maple Leafs and that team happened to be located in Canada?

I don't necessarily disagree with the rest of what you wrote.

It's not just the accomplishment. It's the company. If the other four guys were Peter Bondra, Pierre Turgeon, Jeremy Roenick and Pat Verbeek, I wouldn't mention it. But the other four members are four gimmies for a list for the top 20 players in the history of the sport, and they'll continue to be gimmies for the top 20 for quite some time. That's why it's worth noting. (Jarome Iginla is about to be the sixth member of the club. And then it'll be a long time before someone else turns the trick).

 

[God Bless Canada]

if he didn't play for the Leafs... probably not. good thing he did



not really seeing this conspiracy theory thing going through, but i think one reason the Toronto effect works is because of how the limelight is on the team day in and day out. achievements by great players in Toronto are multiplied because of how popular the team is. you can't be a good player in Toronto and be "underrated" in the league.

But it's not just media who vote for the HHOF. It's players, coaches and executives who make up the bulk of the committee. There are a few media members as well. Do you honestly think that Scotty Bowman or Peter Stastny will base their decision on Sundin playing with the Leafs for so many years, as opposed to say, Ottawa or Edmonton? You're a fool if you do. They're going to make their decision based on how good of a player he was, not based on where he played.

 

[JaysCyYoung]

I would say no. He was good but never great.

Two post-year all-star team selections at the most difficult position to be selected at (centre) certainly constitutes great.

Here's some players at Sundin's position who never did it:

-Bernie Federko
-Igor Larionov
-Ace Bailey
-Doug Gilmour
-Bob Gainey
-Jean Ratelle
-Ron Francis
-Peter Stastny

Guys who only did it once:

-Dale Hawerchuk
-Denis Savard
-Joe Primeau
-Adam Oates
-Darryl Sittler
-Mike Modano
-Steve Yzerman

And for what it's worth, it is my perception that the "Toronto Effect" has always been overblown on these boards primarily because those who espouse the theory of a Leafs media bias ignore the fact that such a focus on the Leafs has its significant downsides as well. There have been plenty of good players that have passed through the Leafs organization through the years that alienated the fanbase or local media for whatever reason. What other explanation could there be for the full-blown hatred that a hometown boy like Larry Murphy (himself a first-ballot Hall of Famer) experienced? He was even an all-star in his first season as a Leaf but that didn't stop the mob from lighting their torches and advocating for his trade. Or the fact that even an iconic, even semi-divine figure like Doug Gilmour, started to become criticised fairly heavily prior to his eventual trade to New Jersey in 1996? The fact of the matter is that plenty of players in Toronto get boosted (Leafs goaltenders most notably only have to play passably to be anointed the next great thing between the pipes) while plenty of players are vilified (most Leafs defencemen such as Bryan McCabe). Sundin had the misfortune of being European to a large segment of Leaf fandom that was excessively xenophobic; the "Vito from Woodbridge" type as I like to call them.

 

[Big Phil]

Well, lets just take a look at the very interesting point youve just raised TDMM.

As we know, HNIC pretty much caters to the Leafs schedule & broadcasts accordingly. Is it just me, you, or the Man on the Moon that doesnt see a direct correlation between some decent to good but nonetheless not great Leafs being given a bye into the HHOF simply because of the microscopic effects of television in overblowing their touchstone resumes' for the masses?. Honestly, its like dealing with recipients of a Trust Fund at times. Dont get me wrong, Im a Leafs fan, but Im also a realist, and even I have a problem with Sundin. Hell, I'd have a problem with Gilmour if not for his career in total... I still have a problem with a number of inducted Leaf players (and that includes the precious Johnny Bower). How do you you fix something thats busted if your not honest with yourself & everyone else Leaf/Sundin fans?. I swear, some of this stuff makes me embarrassed to call Toronto my place of yoot. Or "yoots", as in Joe Pesci & dysfunction... no sense whatsoever.

I get what you are saying, it isn't something that hasn't been mentioned before though since a lot of people assume playing for Toronto elevates your status. But think about it this way, how much does it HURT your status? Sundin was living in a fishbowl for about 15 years. Regardless of what he did he was always criticized. No matter what he never acheived Gilmour status in the hearts of Leafs fans. He was constantly attacked despite never having proper linemates to help him out.

Also one name that stands out like a sore thumb is Johnny Bower. In all the HHOF talk on here I have never heard a knock against him being in the HHOF. How many 4-time Cup winning goalies are not in the HHOF?

Anyway, I fail to see how there is any Leaf in the HHOF who is only in there because he played for Toronto.

Duff? His time in Montreal is far more documented than Toronto.
McDonald? Remembered more fondly as a Flame. Winning the Cup in his last season helped his legend grow

Only Bob Pulford is in the HHOF as a controversial selection who was a Maple Leaf first and foremost. Maybe he gets more love than he should but big whoop..........one player who MAY have gotten some favours by being a Leaf. Even then it is commonly discussed that Pulford's close ties with Alan Eagleson got him inducted.

That leaves Sittler perhaps. I'd like to think he'd be a HHOFer had he been a Ranger his whole career too.

Sundin's tenure in Toronto is at best a mixed blessing

 

[Iain Fyffe]

-Ace Bailey

It would have been surprising to see a right wing make an All-Star team at centre, after all. He also played most of his career before the All-Star teams came into being. Or did you mean to put someone else?

 

[JaysCyYoung]

Yeah, don't ask me why I put Bailey there. I was actually thinking of Nels Stewart but was also thinking about Bailey's teammate Primeau (who I also listed) and kind of got scatter-brained when making the post between the names. Apologies.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I get what you are saying, it isn't something that hasn't been mentioned before though since a lot of people assume playing for Toronto elevates your status. But think about it this way, how much does it HURT your status? Sundin was living in a fishbowl for about 15 years. Regardless of what he did he was always criticized. No matter what he never acheived Gilmour status in the hearts of Leafs fans. He was constantly attacked despite never having proper linemates to help him out.

Also one name that stands out like a sore thumb is Johnny Bower. In all the HHOF talk on here I have never heard a knock against him being in the HHOF. How many 4-time Cup winning goalies are not in the HHOF?

Anyway, I fail to see how there is any Leaf in the HHOF who is only in there because he played for Toronto.

Duff? His time in Montreal is far more documented than Toronto.
McDonald? Remembered more fondly as a Flame. Winning the Cup in his last season helped his legend grow

Only Bob Pulford is in the HHOF as a controversial selection who was a Maple Leaf first and foremost. Maybe he gets more love than he should but big whoop..........one player who MAY have gotten some favours by being a Leaf. Even then it is commonly discussed that Pulford's close ties with Alan Eagleson got him inducted.

That leaves Sittler perhaps. I'd like to think he'd be a HHOFer had he been a Ranger his whole career too.

Sundin's tenure in Toronto is at best a mixed blessing

George Armstrong and Joe Primeau say hi

George had a long career and his inclusion into the Hall opens up the door to many other complementary players who have long careers IMO and Joe's is very short even for his day.

Sundin easily is more worthy than both of these guys or others listed in your post IMO.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Yeah, don't ask me why I put Bailey there. I was actually thinking of Nels Stewart but was also thinking about Bailey's teammate Primeau (who I also listed) and kind of got scatter-brained when making the post between the names. Apologies.

gainey was also a winger.

George Armstrong and Joe Primeau say hi

George had a long career and his inclusion into the Hall opens up the door to many other complementary players who have long careers IMO and Joe's is very short even for his day.

Sundin easily is more worthy than both of these guys or others listed in your post IMO.

armstrong is an interesting case. i remember there was a thread about him where there was some well thought out and passionate debate on both sides, HHOF or not.

but here's a thought experiment-- can't we make a case that sundin was in a sense george armstrong in a bigger league and a (much) worse team? longtime captain and leader, good but not truly elite player. sundin was obviously a better and more naturally gifted point producer, armstrong has the better playoff record (leading scorer on a dynasty) and by all accounts had a much more well-rounded game and better intangibles.

armstrong wasn't as good as his hall of fame teammates-- keon, mahovlich, horton, bower. but if we play sundin's same career out in the 06, can't you see him as a secondary scorer and steadying leadership presence behind the real stars-- say, forsberg, iginla, scott stevens, and belfour?

the way sundin's career played out, his longevity and consistency helped him retire higher than forsberg and iginla on the all-time points list, even though he never peaked the way they did. i want to draw an analogy between that phenomenon and armstrong outscoring keon, mahovlich, kelly, et al. over the course of the dynasty years, even though he never led the team in playoff scoring in any cup-winning year.

or, another way of looking at it, if we placed sundin on those cup winning leafs and took armstrong out, wouldn't he have slotted right into armstrong's spot?

in my eyes, both longtime leafs captains are hall of famers. and both are lower tier ones relative to their generations, who both qualify not solely for the toronto captain thing, but also for longevity, leadership, and consistently strong but sub-elite production (sundin in the regular season, armstrong in the playoffs).

but then i'm a guy who always thought sundin could have had a really successful and universally acclaimed career as the nords/avs' version of ron francis and was miscast as a franchise scorer on an offensively thin team in a diluted league. (similar actually to shanahan, who could have kept putting up 45-50 goals on the blues or whalers, but was much better served as a 30-40 goal/75 point guy on a wings team led offensively by yzerman and fedorov.)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

George Armstrong and Joe Primeau say hi

George had a long career and his inclusion into the Hall opens up the door to many other complementary players who have long careers IMO and Joe's is very short even for his day.

Sundin easily is more worthy than both of these guys or others listed in your post IMO.

Couldn't you at least come up with better examples like Dick Duff or perhaps Bob Pulford?

Armstrong and Primeau were no-brainers for the HHOF.

 

[pepty]

Did you happen to catch many of those Ottawa vs. Toronto series where Toronto was the complete underdog and Sundin carried them on his back, resulting in defeating the much superior team?

He was responsible defensively, he wasn't out there for his own personal numbers, he was out there to help the team win. Could he have used his size more? Yes, that's one of the knocks on him, but he used it fairly well to protect the puck behind the net, and could keep it in the other teams zone for long periods of time.

Toronto had twice the payroll of the Sens and finished higher in the standings in 3 of the 4 playoff meetings.

The rest is just Toronto media spin.

 

[Rappaport]

The HHOF is not worthy of Sundin.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Couldn't you at least come up with better examples like Dick Duff or perhaps Bob Pulford?

Armstrong and Primeau were no-brainers for the HHOF.

I understand why they are in but hardly no brainers when one looks at deply IMO, or at the very least holds more recent players to a much higher standard.

 

[Connor McJesus]

I voted no but I understand that in reality he's a lock.

 

[asdf]

Two post-year all-star team selections at the most difficult position to be selected at (centre) certainly constitutes great.

Here's some players at Sundin's position who never did it:

-Bernie Federko
-Igor Larionov
-Ace Bailey
-Doug Gilmour
-Bob Gainey
-Jean Ratelle
-Ron Francis
-Peter Stastny

Guys who only did it once:

-Dale Hawerchuk
-Denis Savard
-Joe Primeau
-Adam Oates
-Darryl Sittler
-Mike Modano
-Steve Yzerman

Almost everybody listed there played in a tougher time with stiffer competition. Sundin's two 2nd team AS seasons were very good but pretty unremarkable, and they came during one of the weakest times in recent history.

And for what it's worth, it is my perception that the "Toronto Effect" has always been overblown on these boards primarily because those who espouse the theory of a Leafs media bias ignore the fact that such a focus on the Leafs has its significant downsides as well. There have been plenty of good players that have passed through the Leafs organization through the years that alienated the fanbase or local media for whatever reason. What other explanation could there be for the full-blown hatred that a hometown boy like Larry Murphy (himself a first-ballot Hall of Famer) experienced? He was even an all-star in his first season as a Leaf but that didn't stop the mob from lighting their torches and advocating for his trade. Or the fact that even an iconic, even semi-divine figure like Doug Gilmour, started to become criticised fairly heavily prior to his eventual trade to New Jersey in 1996? The fact of the matter is that plenty of players in Toronto get boosted (Leafs goaltenders most notably only have to play passably to be anointed the next great thing between the pipes) while plenty of players are vilified (most Leafs defencemen such as Bryan McCabe). Sundin had the misfortune of being European to a large segment of Leaf fandom that was excessively xenophobic; the "Vito from Woodbridge" type as I like to call them.

Larry Murphy didn't get booed for no reason. It was because he was the highest paid player on the team and didn't play at that level. Same thing with McCabe. Speaking of McCabe, his European defence partner was the furthest thing from alienated when he was here. That's why I don't buy the xenophobia argument.

I'm not sure what you mean that goalies only have to be average to get love when it doesn't seem any different than anybody else on the team. Look at the treatment Raycroft, Toskala, and most notably Gustavsson, have received. It doesn't seem like something specific to certain positions.

Toronto doesn't seem any different than other big markets. If you don't play up to expectations things can get ugly, but if you do, things can be great. Sundin may not have endeared himself to the fanbase like Gilmour or Clark, but I think that has more to with circumstances and style of play rather than where he was born. In any case, I would most definitely put Sundin in "boosted" category over the "vilified" category.