Confirmed with Link: Mat Barzal signs 8 Year x $73.2m Extension - $9.15m AAV

[CupHolders]

25 in the NHL with 20 minutes per game over 82 games is average production. If we are ok with 18-64-82 type production then Barzal is now severely overpaid and I would have absolutely traded him at the TDL last year. That is not the production of a superstar center. That's a cut below. Like every other vet on this team, with the exception of Pelech, Dobson and Sorokin.

I dunno, seems arbitrary.

Last year it was a pretty common refrain (by many, not you specifically) to argue that him NOT being a PPG player for the past four years was reason he shouldn’t be extended long-term.

Now he is under a modified system from Trotz and he’s at a PPG pace. But a PPG pace, and allocation of said points (Goals vs Assists) is still viewed as underwhelming.

Just seems there isn’t much unified or fixed standards as to what will satisfy some here regarding Barzal’s production.

As for this notion that Cizikas is unlocking Barzal by keeping him in straight lines? Not enough sample size to determine that is specifically occurring. Barzal was starting to heat up before Cizikas was on that line.

Personally I think Cizikas speed, forechecking and defensive presence in the neutral zone are important on any line.

But even if Cizikas is the reason for Barzal’s recent improved game… we’ll then get a player like him for the Barzal line or someone to replace him on the fourth line. Seems negligible expense per results.

Me either. I like Cal but 1 year would have been plenty.

At least we're in position to make the 2nd half watchable and have something to root for. I'll take it over last year


Well, you did know Palms and Cal would, it's tradition!

Two years was fine. Navigating Clutterbuck and Martin’s contract is not as difficult as some make it out to be.

Hopefully someone earns his spot by next year and he becomes a reserve depth player before retiring.

 

[Mike C]

I dunno, seems arbitrary.

Last year it was a pretty common refrain (by many, not you specifically) to argue that him NOT being a PPG player for the past four years was reason he shouldn’t be extended long-term.

Now he is under a modified system from Trotz and he’s at a PPG pace. But a PPG pace, and allocation of said points (Goals vs Assists) is still viewed as underwhelming.

Just seems there isn’t much unified or fixed standards as to what will satisfy some here regarding Barzal’s production.

As for this notion that Cizikas is unlocking Barzal by keeping him in straight lines? Not enough sample size to determine that is specifically occurring. Barzal was starting to heat up before Cizikas was on that line.

Personally I think Cizikas speed, forechecking and defensive presence in the neutral zone are important on any line.

But even if Cizikas is the reason for Barzal’s recent improved game… we’ll then get a player like him for the Barzal line or someone to replace him on the fourth line. Seems negligible expense per results.


Two years was fine. Navigating Clutterbuck and Martin’s contract is not as difficult as some make it out to be.

Hopefully someone earns his spot by next year and he becomes a reserve depth player before retiring.

Maybe Lou signed him for 2 figuring he'd get 1 combined season of ice time eh?

 

[CupHolders]

Maybe Lou signed him for 2 figuring he'd get 1 combined season of ice time eh?

Honestly, he could have very well been ok with that. Lou I’m sure appreciates Clutterbuck’s approach and professionalism.

If that could rub off on some of these younger Bridgeport players and hopefully his eventual replacement… then great!

 

[Mike C]

Honestly, he could have very well been ok with that. Lou I’m sure appreciates Clutterbuck’s approach and professionalism.

If that could rub off on some of these younger Bridgeport players and hopefully his eventual replacement… then great!

I love what Cal does. Over 10 hits in 2 games back. Just very brittle these days. My mindset is go year to year with him but what the hell do I know. I'm watching St.John's about to drop to 1-5 in Conference

 

[MJF]

Two years was fine. Navigating Clutterbuck and Martin’s contract is not as difficult as some make it out to be.

It’s not so much their contracts. It’s the ice time they monopolize. 11 minutes is 11 too much. We already had Johnston who can do what Martin does. And by running back Clutterbuck again, who is made of glass, it keeps us locked into this BFliH that we should have moved on from.

Cizikas will prove that he still has some wheels. But keeping past their primes Martin and Clutter kept Lou from reimagining the bottom of the roster.

 

[Mike C]

It’s not so much their contracts. It’s the ice time they monopolize. 11 minutes is 11 too much. We already had Johnston who can do what Martin does. And by running back Clutterbuck again, who is made of glass, it keeps us locked into this BFliH that we should have moved on from.

I've been disappointed in Johnston. He doesn't use his body as he should and doesn't check much. He did make a nice pass the other day and isn't bad behind the net in the O zone.

Martin on the other hand has pleasantly surprised me. He's throwing the body way more than last year and playing good D.

Cal is elite at what he does when the glass gets repaired. The dilemma is because these guys lack offense, the other non scoring type guys like Bailey, Holmstrom, Fasching and the like become more of the same

That's where the underachieving of Beau, Palms and Wally hurts

Bringing us back to topic, when the whole thing gets blown up, Capades might have a better chance of upping the production with a more talented group.

 

[13th Floor]

I'm trying to get with the new millennial way of thinking. My wife told me this isn't 1977 anymore. I was a little taken aback by that startling revelation

Millennials are 40 years old.

 

[Zeeker]

Different convo here but in theory yes. To be fair if you were to tell me Palmieri, Pelech, Wahlstrom, Holmstrom, and Clutterbuck would be out for long periods of time I would have given you a different answer for my thoughts on the season. This roster if healthy can make a run come playoff time with this defense core and Sorokin.

Fair enough?

I think the problem here is twofold.

First, I don’t think you can hand wave away injuries. This is an older roster and injuries come with the territory, especially Pelech and Clutterbuck in your list who can be classified as injury-prone given recent history with them. Are the other three in your list really moving the needle that much anyway?

Secondly, and more importantly, the fact that the Isles have proven time and time again that they can’t overcome injuries is a major strike against the roster - not just an “unlucky break.” Let’s face it, we’ve been relatively very lucky with injuries over the past four/five seasons. The Penguins have a million man games lost every season and manage to be fine. We don’t have the elite talent to be able to overcome injuries to important (or even depth) players, which is a significant roster flaw.

So I don’t think you can just say if healthy the entire season we’d be great.

 

[mm11]

Maybe the 4th liner is elevating Barzal? He has Barzal going for the middle of the ice instead of the boards lately. Just sayin.....

Perhaps or perhaps not. Missed the birdie putt by the way fellas. I was distracted by this thread.

Still in the hunt. Get healthy get mean and give it a run. LGI.

 

[Mike C]

Millennials are 40 years old.

Hmmm. Then I'm 2 generations behind. I'm just gonna keep pretending it's 1977 and in 3 years, the Isles will win the cup!

I think the problem here is twofold.

First, I don’t think you can hand wave away injuries. This is an older roster and injuries come with the territory, especially Pelech and Clutterbuck in your list who can be classified as injury-prone given recent history with them. Are the other three in your list really moving the needle that much anyway?

Secondly, and more importantly, the fact that the Isles have proven time and time again that they can’t overcome injuries is a major strike against the roster - not just an “unlucky break.” Let’s face it, we’ve been relatively very lucky with injuries over the past four/five seasons. The Penguins have a million man games lost every season and manage to be fine. We don’t have the elite talent to be able to overcome injuries to important (or even depth) players, which is a significant roster flaw.

So I don’t think you can just say if healthy the entire season we’d be great.

Every team has injuries. It's the cost of doing business

 

[mm11]

Hmmm. Then I'm 2 generations behind. I'm just gonna keep pretending it's 1977 and in 3 years, the Isles will win the cup!


Every team has injuries. It's the cost of doing business

except the rags at this point

 

[13th Floor]

Hmmm. Then I'm 2 generations behind. I'm just gonna keep pretending it's 1977 and in 3 years, the Isles will win the cup!


Every team has injuries. It's the cost of doing business

Heh. Makes you realize that us older millennials have had the worst Islanders experience possible.

 

[Mike C]

Heh. Makes you realize that us older millennials have had the worst Islanders experience possible.

True, at least I have the fond memories of Brian Spencer and Gerry Desjardins and Terry Crisp that 1st year. The joy of John Sterling screaming ISLANDERS GOAL into my radio in mid 70s and the pride of the 3 guys I mentioned all being in the 74-75 finals

 

[YearlyLottery]

I think the problem here is twofold.

First, I don’t think you can hand wave away injuries. This is an older roster and injuries come with the territory, especially Pelech and Clutterbuck in your list who can be classified as injury-prone given recent history with them. Are the other three in your list really moving the needle that much anyway?

Secondly, and more importantly, the fact that the Isles have proven time and time again that they can’t overcome injuries is a major strike against the roster - not just an “unlucky break.” Let’s face it, we’ve been relatively very lucky with injuries over the past four/five seasons. The Penguins have a million man games lost every season and manage to be fine. We don’t have the elite talent to be able to overcome injuries to important (or even depth) players, which is a significant roster flaw.

So I don’t think you can just say if healthy the entire season we’d be great.

The Islanders will never be the Penguins though. The Penguins have two franchise forwards who are both better than any forward the Isles have had since..... when? The dynasty years?

How is Pelech being considered injury prone? He had that one major injury in the COVID season... He played 78 games last season. He played 56 the season before in the shortened year. He played 78 games twice before as well.

Yes Palmieri and Wahlstrom move the needle compared to Fasching and Raty. Yes Holmstrom moves the needle much more than Johnston.

Clutterbuck I'll give you as injury prone.

Even with all of these injuries the Islanders are still in the race. If the Isles do miss the playoffs or have an early exit there will be talks of a rebuild. I still fully believe with the defensive core + Sorokin if healthy this team can make a run any year in the playoffs. Lou will need to continue to have drafts where he is bringing in NHL talent though.

 

[seafoam]

The Islanders will never be the Penguins though. The Penguins have two franchise forwards who are both better than any forward the Isles have had since..... when? The dynasty years?

How is Pelech being considered injury prone? He had that one major injury in the COVID season... He played 78 games last season. He played 56 the season before in the shortened year. He played 78 games twice before as well.

Yes Palmieri and Wahlstrom move the needle compared to Fasching and Raty. Yes Holmstrom moves the needle much more than Johnston.

Clutterbuck I'll give you as injury prone.

Even with all of these injuries the Islanders are still in the race. If the Isles do miss the playoffs or have an early exit there will be talks of a rebuild. I still fully believe with the defensive core + Sorokin if healthy this team can make a run any year in the playoffs. Lou will need to continue to have drafts where he is bringing in NHL talent though.

I don't think Wahlstrom moves the need on Holmstrom. Maybe Raty since the coaching staff won't play him more than a few minutes a night but that's it.

 

[YearlyLottery]

I don't think Wahlstrom moves the need on Holmstrom. Maybe Raty since the coaching staff won't play him more than a few minutes a night but that's it.

My overall point is guys like Palmieri, Wahlstrom, Holmstrom, Pelech, Clutterbuck were all replaced with depth. I really don't see any reason to write this team off with the current injuries + having a top goaltender in the world.

Now if Pelech is out another month that's a whole different story.

 

[Mike C]

The Islanders will never be the Penguins though. The Penguins have two franchise forwards who are both better than any forward the Isles have had since..... when? The dynasty years?

How is Pelech being considered injury prone? He had that one major injury in the COVID season... He played 78 games last season. He played 56 the season before in the shortened year. He played 78 games twice before as well.

Yes Palmieri and Wahlstrom move the needle compared to Fasching and Raty. Yes Holmstrom moves the needle much more than Johnston.

Clutterbuck I'll give you as injury prone.

Even with all of these injuries the Islanders are still in the race. If the Isles do miss the playoffs or have an early exit there will be talks of a rebuild. I still fully believe with the defensive core + Sorokin if healthy this team can make a run any year in the playoffs. Lou will need to continue to have drafts where he is bringing in NHL talent though.

Last year at this time we were mired in last place, hopelessly 10 out of a wild card

We're movin on up!

 

[seafoam]

Cc: Barzal, Mat

 

[redbull]

find this interesting from Mike Kelly - kinda supports the eye test on how much Barzal is able to drive play outside the danger area, how much he has the puck and relatively how little is generated offensively. Troy Terry's numbers surprised me but he's on a horrible/rebuilding team so I wouldn't imagine much offensive success relative to puck-time, but the other three are pretty damn good players/scorers.

It's just ONE stat, unfair to read too much into it, but it's interesting.

When I played I was a bad/slow skater but found it easy to score IF you went to certain areas. My son plays the same as Barzal, always looking for a better option, usually resulting in NOTHING....tough to get through (as a parent, coach, whatever). He also never puts the toothpaste cap back, leaves his socks everywhere, ignores any direction and is a know-it-all smart-mouth which he clearly gets from his mom)

I want Barzal to score 130pts next year. Lane Lambert needs to tell him to set that goal or they both shave their head at centre ice

 

[CupHolders]

find this interesting from Mike Kelly - kinda supports the eye test on how much Barzal is able to drive play outside the danger area, how much he has the puck and relatively how little is generated offensively. Troy Terry's numbers surprised me but he's on a horrible/rebuilding team so I wouldn't imagine much offensive success relative to puck-time, but the other three are pretty damn good players/scorers.

It's just ONE stat, unfair to read too much into it, but it's interesting.

When I played I was a bad/slow skater but found it easy to score IF you went to certain areas. My son plays the same as Barzal, always looking for a better option, usually resulting in NOTHING....tough to get through (as a parent, coach, whatever). He also never puts the toothpaste cap back, leaves his socks everywhere, ignores any direction and is a know-it-all smart-mouth which he clearly gets from his mom)

I want Barzal to score 130pts next year. Lane Lambert needs to tell him to set that goal or they both shave their head at centre ice

I posted this article in another thread that confirms that Barzal year-over-year ranks as the best in the NHL with controlled transition from defensive zone to offensive zone.

The NHL’s most dynamic forwards: Ranking the best (and worst) forwards at zone entries and rush offense

Which forwards are the most dominant at transporting the puck?

theathletic.com

It also lists him as third after McDavid and MacKinnon for scoring chances created. So proportionally he’s producing less chances off controlled rushes, but he is still easily one of the best in the NHL.

I just don’t think he will ever be a 100+ point player, because of various limitations of his. But I also think that does not change that he can be a solution to a winning team, even at his cost.

Would I want more tangible production from him? Is it frustrating? Yes, absolutely.

But we should be clear on this one point, controlled exits and entries are NEVER a bad thing whether it yields points OR not. At the very least it prevents the opposition from controlling in your defensive zone.

In a way, it’s like Isles fans who got frustrated with Grabner for not converting on his breakaways. He actually had an average conversion rate… he just had so many breakaways that it looked worse than it was.

At the end of the day, better players in the top six won’t necessarily improve Barzal’s game… only he can do that. But he WILL get marginally more points in production from better players. Why? Because all of those zone entries that result with passes back to the point will ultimately find another player who can hit the net. This team sucks at shooting.

 

[Throttle]

I posted this article in another thread that confirms that Barzal year-over-year ranks as the best in the NHL with controlled transition from defensive zone to offensive zone.

The NHL’s most dynamic forwards: Ranking the best (and worst) forwards at zone entries and rush offense

Which forwards are the most dominant at transporting the puck?

theathletic.com

It also lists him as third after McDavid and MacKinnon for scoring chances created. So proportionally he’s producing less chances off controlled rushes, but he is still easily one of the best in the NHL.

I just don’t think he will ever be a 100+ point player, because of various limitations of his. But I also think that does not change that he can be a solution to a winning team, even at his cost.

Would I want more tangible production from him? Is it frustrating? Yes, absolutely.

But we should be clear on this one point, controlled exits and entries are NEVER a bad thing whether it yields points OR not. At the very least it prevents the opposition from controlling in your defensive zone.

In a way, it’s like Isles fans who got frustrated with Grabner for not converting on his breakaways. He actually had an average conversion rate… he just had so many breakaways that it looked worse than it was.

At the end of the day, better players in the top six won’t necessarily improve Barzal’s game… only he can do that. But he WILL get marginally more points in production from better players. Why? Because all of those zone entries that get passed to the point will ultimately find another player who can hit the net. This team sucks at shooting.

For $7M and soon-to-be $9.15M beyond his possession numbers, that’s not good enough for this team and that cap space.

 

[redbull]

I posted this article in another thread that confirms that Barzal year-over-year ranks as the best in the NHL with controlled transition from defensive zone to offensive zone.

The NHL’s most dynamic forwards: Ranking the best (and worst) forwards at zone entries and rush offense

Which forwards are the most dominant at transporting the puck?

theathletic.com

It also lists him as third after McDavid and MacKinnon for scoring chances created. So proportionally he’s producing less chances off controlled rushes, but he is still easily one of the best in the NHL.

I just don’t think he will ever be a 100+ point player, because of various limitations of his. But I also think that does not change that he can be a solution to a winning team, even at his cost.

Would I want more tangible production from him? Is it frustrating? Yes, absolutely.

But we should be clear on this one point, controlled exits and entries are NEVER a bad thing whether it yields points OR not. At the very least it prevents the opposition from controlling in your defensive zone.

In a way, it’s like Isles fans who got frustrated with Grabner for not converting on his breakaways. He actually had an average conversion rate… he just had so many breakaways that it looked worse than it was.

At the end of the day, better players in the top six won’t necessarily improve Barzal’s game… only he can do that. But he WILL get marginally more points in production from better players. Why? Because all of those zone entries that result with passes back to the point will ultimately find another player who can hit the net. This team sucks at shooting.

More, since “Mike” asked “Mike” the same question.

 

[CupHolders]

For $7M and soon-to-be $9.15M beyond his possession numbers, that’s not good enough for this team and that cap space.

That's an arbitrary statement.

An additional point of importance about possession within a team sport, is the many ancillary ways it impacts the game. One of which, is a player you have been recently advocating for retaining in Scott Mayfield. They're often together on 5V5 because Mayfield is black hole for getting the puck out the zone except for icing.

But regardless, the post above shows that Barzal is producing scoring results, even at a proportionately lower amount. While asking for Barzal to drive the net more often, maybe we can also have other players in the lineup convert more on the chances they are given.