Martin Open To Extension

[The GM]

The D pairs I'm hoping for in the next few years are:

15-16:

Maatta-Letang
Harrington-Despres
Dumoulin/Pouliot-Bortuzzo
Pouliot/Dumoulin

Nothing too shocking here. By the start of next season, Bortuzzo, Despres, Letang and Maatta will all have over 160 games played (assuming healthy this year), and Harrington should have a good amount from playing this year. Dumoulin and Pouliot are the 2 that would be rotating on the bottom pair. I don't think it's realistic due to only having 1 D over 3 seasons played, but this is what I would like to see. This changes if Harrington doesn't get into a decent amount of games this year.

16-17:

Maatta-Letang
Pouliot-Harrington
Dumoulin-Despres

For clarity, I don't think of this as Pouliot-Harrington as the 2nd pair and Dumoulin-Despres as the 3rd pair. They are kinda like a 2A and 2B pair, I'm just putting the D with who I feel like is the best complement here. Pouliot-Harrington will likely be our 2nd pair for a long time, and they complement each other very well. Despres and Dumoulin complement each other well because they're both excellent skaters and puck movers that are strong defensively. That would be our shutdown pair. I feel like Bortuzzo would be gone by this point to somewhere where he would play more and we would have a veteran as the #7D.

17-18:

Maatta-Despres
Pouliot-Harrington
Dumoulin-Physical shutdown #6D

This is where it gets interesting. I'd move Letang for elite wing help at this point. By this point, we should have the D that are more than capable of taking Letang's minutes. Despres is the obvious candidate to slide up to the top pair. It gives the Pens a very mobile top-4 that has a good blend of grit (Despres), offensive talent (Pouliot), defensive talent (Harrington) and general awesomeness (Maatta). Is this realistic? Not a chance in hell, but this is what I'd like to see.

I'd hope we have an elite winger before 17-18, either through trade of the next three drafts

 

[penguins2946*]

I'd hope we have an elite winger before 17-18, either through trade of the next three drafts

I never said we wouldn't have an elite winger, I said we would move one for Letang. By that point, hopefully Kapanen, Hornqvist, and 2 elite wingers make up our top-6.

What's insanely more likely is that Dumoulin is moved in a package for a winger this year, Despres is moved in a couple years (2 or 3 I'd guess) for wing help and we have Letang, Maatta, Harrington and Pouliot in the top-4 for a long time.

 

[jmelm]

The D pairs I'm hoping for in the next few years are:

15-16:

Maatta-Letang
Harrington-Despres
Dumoulin/Pouliot-Bortuzzo
Pouliot/Dumoulin

Nothing too shocking here. By the start of next season, Bortuzzo, Despres, Letang and Maatta will all have over 160 games played (assuming healthy this year), and Harrington should have a good amount from playing this year. Dumoulin and Pouliot are the 2 that would be rotating on the bottom pair. I don't think it's realistic due to only having 1 D over 3 seasons played, but this is what I would like to see. This changes if Harrington doesn't get into a decent amount of games this year.

16-17:

Maatta-Letang
Pouliot-Harrington
Dumoulin-Despres

For clarity, I don't think of this as Pouliot-Harrington as the 2nd pair and Dumoulin-Despres as the 3rd pair. They are kinda like a 2A and 2B pair, I'm just putting the D with who I feel like is the best complement here. Pouliot-Harrington will likely be our 2nd pair for a long time, and they complement each other very well. Despres and Dumoulin complement each other well because they're both excellent skaters and puck movers that are strong defensively. That would be our shutdown pair. I feel like Bortuzzo would be gone by this point to somewhere where he would play more and we would have a veteran as the #7D.

17-18:

Maatta-Despres
Pouliot-Harrington
Dumoulin-Physical shutdown #6D

This is where it gets interesting. I'd move Letang for elite wing help at this point. By this point, we should have the D that are more than capable of taking Letang's minutes. Despres is the obvious candidate to slide up to the top pair. It gives the Pens a very mobile top-4 that has a good blend of grit (Despres), offensive talent (Pouliot), defensive talent (Harrington) and general awesomeness (Maatta). Is this realistic? Not a chance in hell, but this is what I'd like to see.

I read you 16-17 pairing and noticed the absence of Bortuzzo, and I was thinking "man, Bortuzzo is going to surprise people with how good he is". And then I saw your 17-18 pairings where you're MISSING a physical, shutdown right defenseman. I think I have your answer for who it should be.


The fact is, in my mind, we've got 7 sure-bet, high quality NHL Dmen for the future:

Letang
Maatta
Pouliot
Harrington
Bortuzzo
Despres
Dumoulin

One of those guys has to get traded. Sure, it could be Letang THREE years from now, when Pouliot has to play and can no longer clear waivers, but I wouldn't trade Letang at all unless I thought Pouliot will be more effective than Letang in 5 on 5 and PK situations. That's not going to happen until DP is over-ripe, such as if he played a full 3 seasons in WBS and was literally wins Defenseman of the Year down there by his 3rd season.

Other than that more distant, difficult scenario, I would have to guess that it is one of Pouliot, Despres or Dumoulin that gets moved. So, we'll see what happens over the next 12 months. A trade will be made: either this year, this off-season, or the beginning of next season, but a trade will be made.

And if it's not any one of those 7 who get traded because we are able to do it with other assets (Martin, Spaling, 1st rounder, etc.), then it could delay the decision making even further. But in any event, I would classify that as a great problem to have, because I think all of those guys will be VERY good NHL defensemen, including the underrated Bortuzzo, and much under-appreciated Dumoulin.

 

[jmelm]

I'd hope we have an elite winger before 17-18, either through trade of the next three drafts

I expect that between Kapanen, Sundqvist and hopefully Megna, we'll have 1 top-6 forward, plus two middle-6 forwards, perhaps as soon as next season. Add a healthy Bennett, and we'll have two top-6 guys, and two middle-6 guys.

The one thing we're missing organizationally is a scoring winger with SIZE. For example, I would HAPPILY trade Paul Martin to Minnesota for Alex Tuch or Mario Lucia, or New York for a guy like Anders Lee, etc. If we can't get an established guy, that is.

That's the one piece I think we're lacking, and it should be addressed through the draft or through trade. And while I obviously want to maximize our team to win this year, if we can't get a legit, established top 6 forward for Martin (which is unlikely, though less unlikely if we add), then I would rather take a prospect who can be that guy next year or the year after. We need to balance our chances to win this season, with maximizing our chances to win the next 1-2 years and beyond. Geno and Sid are getting older, but they're not Thornton & Marleau, or the Sedins. They're window will be open for a while.

I never said we wouldn't have an elite winger, I said we would move one for Letang. By that point, hopefully Kapanen, Hornqvist, and 2 elite wingers make up our top-6.

What's insanely more likely is that Dumoulin is moved in a package for a winger this year, Despres is moved in a couple years (2 or 3 I'd guess) for wing help and we have Letang, Maatta, Harrington and Pouliot in the top-4 for a long time.

People can't have it both ways: say that Dumo is a mediocre, unexciting or "meh" prospect, but think we can still get a great winger for him.

And to address the next part of your quote: if Dumo is gone, why move Despres? He'll be a #3-4, and won't be hard to retain. Same with Bortuzzo.

And let's pray to god that either we WON'T trade our 1st rounders over the next few years, and if we do that it's for young-ish elite players; or if we keep them, we do really, really well in the draft.

I really, really like our depth on defense, in goaltending, and in bottom 9 forwards. But what I don't see, besides KK (and not including BB) is anyone who can be a legit 1st liner. We have some guys who I think could step up and be complementary guys on the 2nd line or great point-producing 3rd liners (Megna, Wilson, Archibald, Sundqvist), but not the kind of Hornqvist/Neal kind of players. Kapanen was a great start in the draft, but we have to add another, and preferably a guy with skill and size.

 

[Darth Vitale]

Is it considered news that Paul Martin, at his age, would accept an extension on this team? Of course he would! Around here we call it "The Dupuis Effect"... we just have to hope it left town with Bylsma and Shero. I guess we'll find out. That's some real hard-hitting sports journalism there, Yohe.


As far Martin, that's in his best interest but not ours, as some people have pointed out. Re-signing him would be a bad mistake unless a couple of our top 4 guys sustain serious long-term injuries from which full recovery is not guaranteed. Absent that I wouldn't even enter into talks.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

I never said we wouldn't have an elite winger, I said we would move one for Letang. By that point, hopefully Kapanen, Hornqvist, and 2 elite wingers make up our top-6.

What's insanely more likely is that Dumoulin is moved in a package for a winger this year, Despres is moved in a couple years (2 or 3 I'd guess) for wing help and we have Letang, Maatta, Harrington and Pouliot in the top-4 for a long time.

Too soff. Even if you are icing Bortuzzo and Ruopp as your bottom pairing, you still want Despres' size and physicality in that top 4. I don't think Harrington will shy from physical play, but he doesn't have Despres' size.

 

[Pens1566]

The Canadian dollar is substantially weaker this year vs USD.

And even with it weaker, it's still an increase everywhere I've seen it mentioned.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Is it considered news that Paul Martin, at his age, would accept an extension on this team? Of course he would! Around here we call it "The Dupuis Effect"... we just have to hope it left town with Bylsma and Shero. I guess we'll find out. That's some real hard-hitting sports journalism there, Yohe.


As far Martin, that's in his best interest but not ours, as some people have pointed out. Re-signing him would be a bad mistake unless a couple of our top 4 guys sustain serious long-term injuries from which full recovery is not guaranteed. Absent that I wouldn't even enter into talks.

I don't buy that Martin has ever been against re-signing here. I just think he knows its very unlikely that we can pay him the money he can get in free agency. I'd believe he's against signing here for a significant discount.

 

[penguins2946*]

Too soff. Even if you are icing Bortuzzo and Ruopp as your bottom pairing, you still want Despres' size and physicality in that top 4. I don't think Harrington will shy from physical play, but he doesn't have Despres' size.

Which one of those 4 do you see moving? Pouliot and Harrington both bring a unique skillset to the top-4 and Maatta is just going to be incredible. Do you move Letang by then? That would be ideal, considering his inconsistent play and injury history over the years, but that's not likely for a variety of reasons. I really like the Maatta-Despres and Pouliot-Harrington pairs for the top-4 in the future.

People can't have it both ways: say that Dumo is a mediocre, unexciting or "meh" prospect, but think we can still get a great winger for him.

I never said he was a mediocre prospect. I just don't think he has the upside of Pouliot, Harrington or Despres. I see him developing into a great #5 or an average #4. However, that's redundant when we will already have issues getting top-4 potential D into the top-4.

And to address the next part of your quote: if Dumo is gone, why move Despres? He'll be a #3-4, and won't be hard to retain. Same with Bortuzzo.

Bortuzzo will probably sign somewhere so he can play more. Without adding anyone, the Pens have Letang, Maatta, Despres, Harrington, Pouliot, Dumoulin and Scuderi as players that are either cost controlled or are signed for the next 3 years. I don't think he views that as a very good opportunity for his career to stay here.

The rest I agree with, I'd only trade our 1st this year for an established cost controlled top-6 winger or to move up in the draft.

I read you 16-17 pairing and noticed the absence of Bortuzzo, and I was thinking "man, Bortuzzo is going to surprise people with how good he is". And then I saw your 17-18 pairings where you're MISSING a physical, shutdown right defenseman. I think I have your answer for who it should be.

As I originally said in my post, I think Bortuzzo will leave to go somewhere where he can play in the top-4 eventually. He'll end up being too good to be stuck as a #6 or #7 with Pittsburgh.

One of those guys has to get traded. Sure, it could be Letang THREE years from now, when Pouliot has to play and can no longer clear waivers, but I wouldn't trade Letang at all unless I thought Pouliot will be more effective than Letang in 5 on 5 and PK situations. That's not going to happen until DP is over-ripe, such as if he played a full 3 seasons in WBS and was literally wins Defenseman of the Year down there by his 3rd season.

I really disagree with this. Letang didn't need to spend 3 years in the AHL to replace Gonchar's minutes at ES and on the PK. Hell, he only spent 10 games in his career in the AHL. We also don't need to have Pouliot replace Letang's minutes, he just needs to replace his PP minutes. We have the D capable of PKing (Maatta, Harrington, Despres and Dumoulin can all kill penalties) that can make up for his PK time, and his ES minutes will probably go to Maatta and the rest will be dispersed among the other 4.

Other than that more distant, difficult scenario, I would have to guess that it is one of Pouliot, Despres or Dumoulin that gets moved. So, we'll see what happens over the next 12 months. A trade will be made: either this year, this off-season, or the beginning of next season, but a trade will be made.

I'd venture to say that Dumoulin is the most likely player of those 3 to be traded by a fair margin. Pouliot's skillset is unique to our system, and Despres has Dumoulin's size, skating and puck moving abilities and an added on layer of grit. Dumoulin is pretty redundant with us, he doesn't do any 1 thing that special. Every other D prospect in our system is either going to be a franchise D (Maatta) or does 1 thing noticeably well (Harrington is elite defensively, Pouliot is elite offensively, Despres is extremely physical). Dumoulin does a lot of things well, but we have about 4 other D that do a lot of things well that also add something special.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I don't want to pay Martin what it would cost to keep him here, but I sure don't want to re-sign Ehrhoff if he continues to play anything like this either.

If our young guys can keep up the level of play they've established so far this year, **** it, break the logjam and just roll with them next season.

 

[Shady Machine]

I don't want to pay Martin what it would cost to keep him here, but I sure don't want to re-sign Ehrhoff if he continues to play anything like this either.

If our young guys can keep up the level of play they've established so far this year, **** it, break the logjam and just roll with them next season.

Agreed but they really need to give Harrington, Dumo, and Pouliot some games so they can feel comfortable enough in what they have. Plus, it would make it a lot easier for my sanity to not hear people say "contending teams can't rely on all this inexperience on D". Meanwhile Crosby and Malkin are playing with garbage again.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Agreed but they really need to give Harrington, Dumo, and Pouliot some games so they can feel comfortable enough in what they have. Plus, it would make it a lot easier for my sanity to not hear people say "contending teams can't rely on all this inexperience on D". Meanwhile Crosby and Malkin are playing with garbage again.

I think it's true that contending teams can't rely on a ton of inexperience on d. But now is the year for them to get experience, with at least 1 or 2 of Martin, Ehrhoff, and Scuds on the team for the full ride.

Maatta can get through his sophomore year with a bit of a safety net. Despres and Borts can finally get in a full season. And hopefully, Harrington, Dumo, and Pouliot can get a few cups of coffee.

But the logjam has to be broken up a bit before that can happen. At least one of the aforementioned vets gotta go.

 

[Shady Machine]

I think it's true that contending teams can't rely on a ton of inexperience on d. But now is the year for them to get experience, with at least 1 or 2 of Martin, Ehrhoff, and Scuds on the team for the full ride.

Maatta can get through his sophomore year with a bit of a safety net. Despres and Borts can finally get in a full season. And hopefully, Harrington, Dumo, and Pouliot can get a few cups of coffee.

But the logjam has to be broken up a bit before that can happen. At least one of the aforementioned vets gotta go.

I have nothing to add other than I agree.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'm not too concerned about Pouliot. He knows Johnston's system well, and might be more comfortable than Ehrhoff immediately when he arrives. And Harrington is as low-maintenance as prospects go, so I think we'll be fine.

 

[MrBurghundy]

For the most part, the perceived inexperience on our blueline is a bit overblown. Despres, Bortuzzo, and Maatta all have playoff experience. They aren't going to be green going into things this year.