Martin Brodeur

[Dennis Bonvie]

So Hank Aaron cannot be a better all-time home run hitter than Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Frank Robinson and a few others for the same reason(s) you stated.

I don't think any real baseball fans would say Hank Aaron was a better home run hitter than Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Sure Does

Final number of wins?

No, that does nothing to differentiate between goalie and team.

Justifies looking at aspects like win share and various applications of the Pythagorean metric relative to goalies / team. Also raw win totals explain longevity, consistency and simply the ability to win which is one of the hardest things for an athlete to learn.

Again you raised the baseball analogy so you have to deal with the consequences of applying metrics in a uniform fashion. For instance one of the more telling baseball metrics deals with adjustments for the stadium since you do not have cookie cutter stadiums. Yet there are no hockey metrics that adjust for smaller or larger rink dimensions. Cannot argue it both ways.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Perhaps

I don't think any real baseball fans would say Hank Aaron was a better home run hitter than Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays.

Perhaps, but those who are not numerically challenged would have to admit that Aaron was more prolific.

 

[seventieslord]

Justifies looking at aspects like win share and various applications of the Pythagorean metric relative to goalies / team.

Yes.

Also raw win totals explain longevity, consistency and simply the ability to win which is one of the hardest things for an athlete to learn.

Teams win.

Again you raised the baseball analogy so you have to deal with the consequences of applying metrics in a uniform fashion. For instance one of the more telling baseball metrics deals with adjustments for the stadium since you do not have cookie cutter stadiums. Yet there are no hockey metrics that adjust for smaller or larger rink dimensions. Cannot argue it both ways.

I didn't bring up baseball. the OP did.

There is a perfectly reasonable reason to adjust for baseball stadiums. it's easier to hit a home run in a smaller stadium. There is no statistical measure that can be adjusted due to a quantifiable difference in arena size.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not So....

Yes.



Teams win.



I didn't bring up baseball. the OP did.

There is a perfectly reasonable reason to adjust for baseball stadiums. it's easier to hit a home run in a smaller stadium. There is no statistical measure that can be adjusted due to a quantifiable difference in arena size.

Individual athletes playing a team sport have to learn how to win, how to make individual sacrifices for the good of the team. See Yzerman under Bowman.

Arena size. No one has found a metric for arena size or even bothered to try. On the other hand successful coaches were adjusting for arena size in their line-ups and match-ups for ages.

 

[seventieslord]

Individual athletes playing a team sport have to learn how to win, how to make individual sacrifices for the good of the team. See Yzerman under Bowman.

Arena size. No one has found a metric for arena size or even bothered to try. On the other hand successful coaches were adjusting for arena size in their line-ups and match-ups for ages.

Arena size, if it is an advantage offensively, is a disadvantage defensively, and vice versa. All players on the ice deal with it. Making an arena size adjustment would be a major stretch wrought with assumptions.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not So..............

Arena size, if it is an advantage offensively, is a disadvantage defensively, and vice versa. All players on the ice deal with it. Making an arena size adjustment would be a major stretch wrought with assumptions.

Going from larger to smaller is much easier. You still do not account for the match-ups that a coach has to make that take rink size into consideration.

A baseball analogy. Teams used to start a lefty at old Yankee Stadium (see Frank Lary) to neutralize the Yankees left handed hitters and force Mantle to hit right.

Likewise the Canadiens used to play the Bruins and Hawks differently at the Forum than on the smaller Boston and Chicago rinks. While the Bruins and the Hawks would play differently at the Forum.

You assume that there is a clear distinction between offense and defense which is far from accurate in hockey.

 

[seventieslord]

Going from larger to smaller is much easier. You still do not account for the match-ups that a coach has to make that take rink size into consideration.

A baseball analogy. Teams used to start a lefty at old Yankee Stadium (see Frank Lary) to neutralize the Yankees left handed hitters and force Mantle to hit right.

Likewise the Canadiens used to play the Bruins and Hawks differently at the Forum than on the smaller Boston and Chicago rinks. While the Bruins and the Hawks would play differently at the Forum.

You assume that there is a clear distinction between offense and defense which is far from accurate in hockey.

No, you just misunderstand me. I am aware offense and defense are never fully separate but that hasnothing to do with what I'm saying. Point is, the rink is the same size at both ends.

 

[shazariahl]

As someone else mentioned, Brodeur cannot be better than Hasek, since Hasek was better the entire time he played. Let's not forget Hasek put up some pretty good numbers in Buffalo as well (I mostly see people referencing his detroit years), despite facing more shots/game than any other goaltender in the league. (IIRC, he faced more shots/game for 3 straight years, and also led in s% for all 3 of those years).

6 Vezinas in 8 years, and 2 Harts cannot be ignored either. That is a level of domination at his position that Brodeur has never achieved.

 

[BM67]

Always clearly behind Roy and Hasek.?

Roy received Hart votes 7 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Roy in Hart voting 7 times from 93-94 to 02-03. Roy finished ahead of Brodeur twice.

Hasek received Hart votes 8 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Hasek in Hart voting 8 times from 93-94 to 07-08. (Only partial voting available for 01-02. Neither finished in the top 10 in Hart voting or received a 1st or 2nd place vote.) Hasek finished ahead of Brodeur 5 times.

Roy received Vezina votes 17 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Roy in Vezina voting 8 times from 93-94 to 02-03. Roy finished ahead of Brodeur twice.

Hasek received Vezina votes 11 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Hasek in Vezina voting 8 times from 93-94 to 07-08. Hasek finished ahead of Brodeur 6 times.

Roy received year end All-star votes 15 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Roy in year end All-star voting 7 times from 93-94 to 02-03. Roy finished ahead of Brodeur twice.

Hasek received year end All-star votes 10 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Hasek in year end All-star voting 7 times from 93-94 to 07-08. Hasek finished ahead of Brodeur 7 times.

Brodeur finished behind both Hasek and Roy in Hart and Vezina voting only once, with the possible exception of 01-02 for Hart voting, in 93-94. 93-94 and 01-02 are the only seasons where he finished behind both in All-star voting.

From 93-94 to 02-03 Brodeur finished ahead of Hasek's and Roy's combined voting total 4 times in Hart voting, twice in Vezina voting, and 3 times in All-star voting.

Hardly the resume one would expect of a guy that was always and clearly 3rd.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Always clearly behind Roy and Hasek.?

Roy received Hart votes 7 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Roy in Hart voting 7 times from 93-94 to 02-03. Roy finished ahead of Brodeur twice.

Hasek received Hart votes 8 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Hasek in Hart voting 8 times from 93-94 to 07-08. (Only partial voting available for 01-02. Neither finished in the top 10 in Hart voting or received a 1st or 2nd place vote.) Hasek finished ahead of Brodeur 5 times.

Roy received Vezina votes 17 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Roy in Vezina voting 8 times from 93-94 to 02-03. Roy finished ahead of Brodeur twice.

Hasek received Vezina votes 11 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Hasek in Vezina voting 8 times from 93-94 to 07-08. Hasek finished ahead of Brodeur 6 times.

Roy received year end All-star votes 15 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Roy in year end All-star voting 7 times from 93-94 to 02-03. Roy finished ahead of Brodeur twice.

Hasek received year end All-star votes 10 times in his career. Brodeur finished ahead of Hasek in year end All-star voting 7 times from 93-94 to 07-08. Hasek finished ahead of Brodeur 7 times.

Brodeur finished behind both Hasek and Roy in Hart and Vezina voting only once, with the possible exception of 01-02 for Hart voting, in 93-94. 93-94 and 01-02 are the only seasons where he finished behind both in All-star voting.

From 93-94 to 02-03 Brodeur finished ahead of Hasek's and Roy's combined voting total 4 times in Hart voting, twice in Vezina voting, and 3 times in All-star voting.

Hardly the resume one would expect of a guy that was always and clearly 3rd.

I'm not sure it's fair to include Hasek's retirement comeback years from ages 39-43. I don't think ANY goalie of that age would be thought of as in his prime or be expected to beat out an all-time great goaltender who is aged 31-35. I would like to see these same numbers only going from 93-94 to 01-02.

The concept above does not affect the Roy numbers, and they are interesting for sure. Unfortunately, this only looks at the regular season, and such a big part of Roy's high ranking comes from him being (what most consider) the best playoff goaltender of all time. In fact, I wouldn't be suprised if most Roy advocates give Brodeur the regular season edge.

I do not mean to discredit your post, there are definitely some good points there. Just adding a few things that seem to have been overlooked or not mentioned, and that I'm sure those with the opposite point of view may bring up.

 

[BM67]

1985-86 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy T9th-11th 1 (0-0-1)
1986-87 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 10th 2 (0-0-2); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 4th 29 (1-4-12)
1987-88 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 8th 8 (0-2-2); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 2nd 64 (2-15-9)
1988-89 - HART: Patrick Roy 4th 2 (0-0-2); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 1st 87 (15-3-3); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 291 (52-10-1)
1989-90 - HART: Patrick Roy T5th-6th 8 (0-1-5); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 1st 91 (15-5-1); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 304 (59-3-0)
1990-91 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 2nd 44 (1-12-3); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 2nd 144 (1-43-0)
1991-92 - HART: Patrick Roy 2nd 105 (1-27-19); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 1st 95 (17-3-1); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 303 (54-11-0)
1992-93 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 6th 3 (0-1-0); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 7th 2 (0-0-2)
1993-94 - HART: Dominik Hasek 2nd 86 (6-15-11); Patrick Roy 5th 26 (3-3-2); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 99 (15-8-0); Patrick Roy 3rd 34 (3-3-10); Martin Brodeur T7th-8th 5 (0-1-2); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 224 (40-6-6); Patrick Roy 3rd 86 (7-13-12); Martin Brodeur 6th 5 (0-1-2)
1994-95 - HART: Dominik Hasek 3rd 23 (3-2-2); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 104 (17-6-1); Martin Brodeur T8th-9th 7 (0-2-1); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 73 (14-1-0) (Only 15 votes for Hart and All-star teams, 26 for Vezina.)
1995-96 - HART: Martin Brodeur 12th 9 (0-0-1-1-1); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 4th 31 (4-3-2); Dominik Hasek 8th 9 (1-1-1); Patrick Roy 9th 5 (1-0-0); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 3rd 84 (12-6-6); Dominik Hasek 7th 8 (0-2-2); Patrick Roy T8th-11th 1 (0-0-1)
1996-97 - HART: Dominik Hasek 1st 519 (50-2-1-0-0); Martin Brodeur 4th 115 (0-7-6-11-3); Patrick Roy 8th 31 (0-2-2-0-7); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 120 (22-3-1); Martin Brodeur 2nd 73 (3-18-4); Patrick Roy 3rd 25 (1-3-11); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 237 (40-12-1); Martin Brodeur 2nd 174 (13-35-4); Patrick Roy 3rd 47 (0-5-32)
1997-98 - HART: Dominik Hasek 1st 499 (43-7-4-0-0); Martin Brodeur 4th 115 (1-5-7-8-11); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 126 (24-2-0); Martin Brodeur 2nd 57 (2-14-5); Patrick Roy 5th 5 (0-1-2); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 259 (50-3-0); Martin Brodeur 2nd 159 (3-47-3); Patrick Roy 6th 1 (0-0-1)
1998-99 - HART: Dominik Hasek 3rd 172 (4-10-8-5-7); Martin Brodeur T16th-17th 1 (0-0-0-0-1); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 73 (8-10-3); Martin Brodeur 4th 17 (1-1-9); Patrick Roy T8th-9th 1 (0-0-1); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 220 (35-13-6); Martin Brodeur 6th 21 (3-0-6); Patrick Roy 8th 4 (0-1-1)
1999-2000 - HART: Martin Brodeur 12th 6 (0-0-0-2-1-3); Dominik Hasek T17th-20th 1 (0-0-0-0-1); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 5th 8 (0-1-5); Patrick Roy 7th 5 (0-1-2); Dominik Hasek 8th 4 (0-1-1); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 3rd 48 (2-9-11);
2000-01 - HART: Martin Brodeur 5th 64 (0-4-4-4-4); Dominik Hasek, BUF 8th 42 (0-3-2-3-2); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 85 (9-12-4); Martin Brodeur 3rd 42 (7-2-1); Patrick Roy 5th 19 (2-1-6); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 160 (19-18-11); Martin Brodeur 3rd 143 (18-15-8); Patrick Roy 4th 46 (3-7-10)
2001-02 - HART: Patrick Roy 3rd 283 (8-15-12-11-5); (Hasek and Brodeur are no better than 11th with 10 points.); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 2nd 105 (12-15-0); Martin Brodeur 5th 7 (1-0-2); Dominik Hasek 6th 6 (0-1-3); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 226 (30-24-4); Dominik Hasek 4th 31 (1-4-14); Martin Brodeur 5th 6 (0-1-3)
2002-03 - HART: Martin Brodeur 3rd 311 (14-12-11-10-2); Patrick Roy 12th 10 (1-0-0-0-0); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 131 (24-3-2); Patrick Roy 4th 17 (1-2-6); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 1st 243 (39-14-6); Patrick Roy 6th 12 (1-1-4)
2003-04 - HART: Martin Brodeur 3rd 213 (2-14-11-11-7); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 89 (15-4-2); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 1st 307 (39-33-13)
2005-06 - HART: Martin Brodeur 12th 22 (0-0-0-6-4); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 2nd 48 (2-10-8); Dominik Hasek T7th-8th 4 (0-1-1); ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 2nd 232 (6-59-25); Dominik Hasek 7th 20 (0-5-5)
2006-07 - HART: Martin Brodeur 3rd 763 (21-45-39-12-7); Dominik Hasek T22nd-26th 1 (0-0-0-0-1); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 122 (16-14-0); Dominik Hasek 5th 5 (0-0-5); ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 1st 607 (91-50-2); Dominik Hasek 3rd 58 (0-3-49)
2007-08 - HART: Martin Brodeur 5th 239 (1-8-19-21-15); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 113 (15-12-2); ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 2nd 475 (56-61-12)
2008-09 - ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 8th 7 (1-0-2)

Here is a table showing vote share, % of a unanimous vote, for the Hart/Vezina/All-star team for Roy, Hasek and Brodeur.

If a unanimous Vezina win would be 105 points, then 1 point would be 0.0095 and 87 points would be 0.8286.

Year|Roy H|Hasek H|Brodeur H|Roy V|Hasek V|Brodeur V|Roy A|Hasek A|Brodeur A
1985-86|0|0|0|0.0095|0|0|0|0|0
1986-87|0|0|0|0.019|0|0|0.1074|0|0
1987-88|0|0|0|0.0762|0|0|0.2032|0|0
1988-89|0.0063|0|0|0.8286|0|0|0.9238|0|0
1989-90|0.0254|0|0|0.8667|0|0|0.9651|0|0
1990-91|0|0|0|0.419|0|0|0.4364|0|0
1991-92|0.3043|0|0|0.8636|0|0|0.9323|0|0
1992-93|0|0|0|0.025|0|0|0.008|0|0
1993-94|0.0963|0.3185|0|0.2615|0.7615|0.0385|0.3185|0.8296|0.0185
1994-95|0|0.3067|0|0|0.8|0.0538|0|0.9733|0
1995-96|0|0|0.0167|0.0385|0.0692|0.2385|0.0038|0.0302|0.317
1996-97|0.0574|0.9611|0.213|0.1923|0.9231|0.5615|0.1774|0.8943|0.6566
1997-98|0|0.9241|0.213|0.0385|0.9692|0.4385|0.0038|0.9774|0.6
1998-99|0|0.3071|0.0018|0.0074|0.5407|0.1259|0.0143|0.7857|0.075
1999-00|0|0.0017|0.0103|0.0357|0.0286|0.0571|0|0|0.1684
2000-01|0|0.0677|0.1032|0.1267|0.5667|0.28|0.1508|0.5246|0.4689
2001-02|0.4565|*|*|0.7|0.04|0.0467|0.7533|0.1033|0.02
2002-03|0.0161|0|0.5016|0.1133|0|0.8733|0.04|0|0.81
2003-04|0|0|0.2029|0|0|0.5933|0|0|0.5904
2005-06|0|0|0.0172|0|0.0267|0.32|0|0.0315|0.3654
2006-07|0|0.0007|0.5336|0|0.0333|0.8133|0|0.0811|0.849
2007-08|0|0|0.1784|0|0|0.7533|0|0|0.7143
2008-09|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0.0107
Total|0.9623|2.8876|1.9917|4.6215|4.759|5.1937|5.0381|5.231|5.6642

* In 2001-02 neither Hasek or Brodeur were in the top 10, but could have received up to 10 points in voting for a 0.0161 share.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

1985-86 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy T9th-11th 1 (0-0-1)
1986-87 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 10th 2 (0-0-2); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 4th 29 (1-4-12)
1987-88 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 8th 8 (0-2-2); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 2nd 64 (2-15-9)
1988-89 - HART: Patrick Roy 4th 2 (0-0-2); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 1st 87 (15-3-3); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 291 (52-10-1)
1989-90 - HART: Patrick Roy T5th-6th 8 (0-1-5); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 1st 91 (15-5-1); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 304 (59-3-0)
1990-91 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 2nd 44 (1-12-3); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 2nd 144 (1-43-0)
1991-92 - HART: Patrick Roy 2nd 105 (1-27-19); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 1st 95 (17-3-1); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 303 (54-11-0)
1992-93 - VEZINA: Patrick Roy 6th 3 (0-1-0); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 7th 2 (0-0-2)
1993-94 - HART: Dominik Hasek 2nd 86 (6-15-11); Patrick Roy 5th 26 (3-3-2); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 99 (15-8-0); Patrick Roy 3rd 34 (3-3-10); Martin Brodeur T7th-8th 5 (0-1-2); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 224 (40-6-6); Patrick Roy 3rd 86 (7-13-12); Martin Brodeur 6th 5 (0-1-2)
1994-95 - HART: Dominik Hasek 3rd 23 (3-2-2); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 104 (17-6-1); Martin Brodeur T8th-9th 7 (0-2-1); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 73 (14-1-0) (Only 15 votes for Hart and All-star teams, 26 for Vezina.)
1995-96 - HART: Martin Brodeur 12th 9 (0-0-1-1-1); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 4th 31 (4-3-2); Dominik Hasek 8th 9 (1-1-1); Patrick Roy 9th 5 (1-0-0); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 3rd 84 (12-6-6); Dominik Hasek 7th 8 (0-2-2); Patrick Roy T8th-11th 1 (0-0-1)
1996-97 - HART: Dominik Hasek 1st 519 (50-2-1-0-0); Martin Brodeur 4th 115 (0-7-6-11-3); Patrick Roy 8th 31 (0-2-2-0-7); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 120 (22-3-1); Martin Brodeur 2nd 73 (3-18-4); Patrick Roy 3rd 25 (1-3-11); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 237 (40-12-1); Martin Brodeur 2nd 174 (13-35-4); Patrick Roy 3rd 47 (0-5-32)
1997-98 - HART: Dominik Hasek 1st 499 (43-7-4-0-0); Martin Brodeur 4th 115 (1-5-7-8-11); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 126 (24-2-0); Martin Brodeur 2nd 57 (2-14-5); Patrick Roy 5th 5 (0-1-2); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 259 (50-3-0); Martin Brodeur 2nd 159 (3-47-3); Patrick Roy 6th 1 (0-0-1)
1998-99 - HART: Dominik Hasek 3rd 172 (4-10-8-5-7); Martin Brodeur T16th-17th 1 (0-0-0-0-1); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 73 (8-10-3); Martin Brodeur 4th 17 (1-1-9); Patrick Roy T8th-9th 1 (0-0-1); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 220 (35-13-6); Martin Brodeur 6th 21 (3-0-6); Patrick Roy 8th 4 (0-1-1)
1999-2000 - HART: Martin Brodeur 12th 6 (0-0-0-2-1-3); Dominik Hasek T17th-20th 1 (0-0-0-0-1); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 5th 8 (0-1-5); Patrick Roy 7th 5 (0-1-2); Dominik Hasek 8th 4 (0-1-1); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 3rd 48 (2-9-11);
2000-01 - HART: Martin Brodeur 5th 64 (0-4-4-4-4); Dominik Hasek, BUF 8th 42 (0-3-2-3-2); VEZINA: Dominik Hasek 1st 85 (9-12-4); Martin Brodeur 3rd 42 (7-2-1); Patrick Roy 5th 19 (2-1-6); ALL-STAR: Dominik Hasek 1st 160 (19-18-11); Martin Brodeur 3rd 143 (18-15-8); Patrick Roy 4th 46 (3-7-10)
2001-02 - HART: Patrick Roy 3rd 283 (8-15-12-11-5); (Hasek and Brodeur are no better than 11th with 10 points.); VEZINA: Patrick Roy 2nd 105 (12-15-0); Martin Brodeur 5th 7 (1-0-2); Dominik Hasek 6th 6 (0-1-3); ALL-STAR: Patrick Roy 1st 226 (30-24-4); Dominik Hasek 4th 31 (1-4-14); Martin Brodeur 5th 6 (0-1-3)
2002-03 - HART: Martin Brodeur 3rd 311 (14-12-11-10-2); Patrick Roy 12th 10 (1-0-0-0-0); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 131 (24-3-2); Patrick Roy 4th 17 (1-2-6); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 1st 243 (39-14-6); Patrick Roy 6th 12 (1-1-4)
2003-04 - HART: Martin Brodeur 3rd 213 (2-14-11-11-7); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 89 (15-4-2); ALL-STAR: Martin Brodeur 1st 307 (39-33-13)
2005-06 - HART: Martin Brodeur 12th 22 (0-0-0-6-4); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 2nd 48 (2-10-8); Dominik Hasek T7th-8th 4 (0-1-1); ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 2nd 232 (6-59-25); Dominik Hasek 7th 20 (0-5-5)
2006-07 - HART: Martin Brodeur 3rd 763 (21-45-39-12-7); Dominik Hasek T22nd-26th 1 (0-0-0-0-1); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 122 (16-14-0); Dominik Hasek 5th 5 (0-0-5); ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 1st 607 (91-50-2); Dominik Hasek 3rd 58 (0-3-49)
2007-08 - HART: Martin Brodeur 5th 239 (1-8-19-21-15); VEZINA: Martin Brodeur 1st 113 (15-12-2); ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 2nd 475 (56-61-12)
2008-09 - ALL STAR: Martin Brodeur 8th 7 (1-0-2)

Here is a table showing vote share, % of a unanimous vote, for the Hart/Vezina/All-star team for Roy, Hasek and Brodeur.

If a unanimous Vezina win would be 105 points, then 1 point would be 0.0095 and 87 points would be 0.8286.

Year|Roy H|Hasek H|Brodeur H|Roy V|Hasek V|Brodeur V|Roy A|Hasek A|Brodeur A
1985-86|0|0|0|0.0095|0|0|0|0|0
1986-87|0|0|0|0.019|0|0|0.1074|0|0
1987-88|0|0|0|0.0762|0|0|0.2032|0|0
1988-89|0.0063|0|0|0.8286|0|0|0.9238|0|0
1989-90|0.0254|0|0|0.8667|0|0|0.9651|0|0
1990-91|0|0|0|0.419|0|0|0.4364|0|0
1991-92|0.3043|0|0|0.8636|0|0|0.9323|0|0
1992-93|0|0|0|0.025|0|0|0.008|0|0
1993-94|0.0963|0.3185|0|0.2615|0.7615|0.0385|0.3185|0.8296|0.0185
1994-95|0|0.3067|0|0|0.8|0.0538|0|0.9733|0
1995-96|0|0|0.0167|0.0385|0.0692|0.2385|0.0038|0.0302|0.317
1996-97|0.0574|0.9611|0.213|0.1923|0.9231|0.5615|0.1774|0.8943|0.6566
1997-98|0|0.9241|0.213|0.0385|0.9692|0.4385|0.0038|0.9774|0.6
1998-99|0|0.3071|0.0018|0.0074|0.5407|0.1259|0.0143|0.7857|0.075
1999-00|0|0.0017|0.0103|0.0357|0.0286|0.0571|0|0|0.1684
2000-01|0|0.0677|0.1032|0.1267|0.5667|0.28|0.1508|0.5246|0.4689
2001-02|0.4565|*|*|0.7|0.04|0.0467|0.7533|0.1033|0.02
2002-03|0.0161|0|0.5016|0.1133|0|0.8733|0.04|0|0.81
2003-04|0|0|0.2029|0|0|0.5933|0|0|0.5904
2005-06|0|0|0.0172|0|0.0267|0.32|0|0.0315|0.3654
2006-07|0|0.0007|0.5336|0|0.0333|0.8133|0|0.0811|0.849
2007-08|0|0|0.1784|0|0|0.7533|0|0|0.7143
2008-09|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0.0107
Total|0.9623|2.8876|1.9917|4.6215|4.759|5.1937|5.0381|5.231|5.6642

* In 2001-02 neither Hasek or Brodeur were in the top 10, but could have received up to 10 points in voting for a 0.0161 share.

Good study...Reminds me of the Hart shares/Norris shares studies Hockey Outsider did.

This really shows how dominant Hasek was when you take into consideration that he only played 9 NHL seasons as a starter (up to his first retirement) compared to 18 for Roy and 15 for Brodeur.

 

[BM67]

Top 10 in Hart voting

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th|10th
Brodeur|0|0|3|2|2|0|0|0|0|0
Hasek|2|1|2|0|0|0|0|1|0|0
Roy|0|1|1|1|2|0|0|1|0|0

Top 10 in Vezina voting

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th|10th
Brodeur|4|3|1|2|2|0|1|1|0|0
Hasek|6|0|0|0|1|1|1|2|0|0
Roy|3|2|2|1|2|1|1|2|2|1

Top 10 in All-star voting

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th|10th
Brodeur|3|4|3|0|1|2|0|1|0|0
Hasek|6|0|1|1|0|0|2|0|0|0
Roy|4|2|1|2|0|2|1|2|0|0

Top 15 seasons by vote share

Player|Year|Hart Share|Player|Year|Vezina Share|Player|Year|All-star Share
Hasek|96-97|96.11|Hasek|97-98|96.92|Hasek|97-98|97.74
Hasek|97-98|92.41|Hasek|96-97|92.31|Hasek|94-95|97.33
Brodeur|06-07|53.36|Brodeur|02-03|87.33|Roy|89-90|96.51
Brodeur|02-03|50.16|Roy|89-90|86.67|Roy|91-92|93.23
Roy|01-02|45.65|Roy|91-92|86.36|Roy|88-89|92.38
Hasek|93-94|31.85|Roy|88-89|82.86|Hasek|96-97|89.43
Hasek|98-99|30.71|Brodeur|06-07|81.33|Brodeur|06-07|84.9
Hasek|94-95|30.67|Hasek|94-95|80|Hasek|93-94|82.96
Roy|91-92|30.43|Hasek|93-94|76.15|Brodeur|02-03|81
Brodeur|96-97|21.3|Brodeur|07-08|75.33|Hasek|98-99|78.57
Brodeur|97-98|21.3|Roy|01-02|70|Roy|01-02|75.33
Brodeur|03-04|20.29|Brodeur|03-04|59.33|Brodeur|07-08|71.43
Brodeur|07-08|17.84|Hasek|00-01|56.67|Brodeur|96-97|65.66
Brodeur|00-01|10.32|Brodeur|96-97|56.15|Brodeur|97-98|60
Roy|93-94|9.63|Hasek|98-99|54.07|Brodeur|03-04|59.04

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm not sure it's fair to include Hasek's retirement comeback years from ages 39-43.

I agree, but to the same extent, the comparison of a 22 year old Brodeur to a 29 year old Hasek/Roy isn't exactly fair either. When Roy was 22, he was struggling to maintain his status as a starter.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Top 10 in Hart voting

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th|10th
Brodeur|0|0|3|2|2|0|0|0|0|0
Hasek|2|1|2|0|0|0|0|1|0|0
Roy|0|1|1|1|2|0|0|1|0|0

Top 10 in Vezina voting

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th|10th
Brodeur|4|3|1|2|2|0|1|1|0|0
Hasek|6|0|0|0|1|1|1|2|0|0
Roy|3|2|2|1|2|1|1|2|2|1

Top 10 in All-star voting

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th|10th
Brodeur|3|4|3|0|1|2|0|1|0|0
Hasek|6|0|1|1|0|0|2|0|0|0
Roy|4|2|1|2|0|2|1|2|0|0

Top 15 seasons by vote share

Player|Year|Hart Share|Player|Year|Vezina Share|Player|Year|All-star Share
Hasek|96-97|96.11|Hasek|97-98|96.92|Hasek|97-98|97.74
Hasek|97-98|92.41|Hasek|96-97|92.31|Hasek|94-95|97.33
Brodeur|06-07|53.36|Brodeur|02-03|87.33|Roy|89-90|96.51
Brodeur|02-03|50.16|Roy|89-90|86.67|Roy|91-92|93.23
Roy|01-02|45.65|Roy|91-92|86.36|Roy|88-89|92.38
Hasek|93-94|31.85|Roy|88-89|82.86|Hasek|96-97|89.43
Hasek|98-99|30.71|Brodeur|06-07|81.33|Brodeur|06-07|84.9
Hasek|94-95|30.67|Hasek|94-95|80|Hasek|93-94|82.96
Roy|91-92|30.43|Hasek|93-94|76.15|Brodeur|02-03|81
Brodeur|96-97|21.3|Brodeur|07-08|75.33|Hasek|98-99|78.57
Brodeur|97-98|21.3|Roy|01-02|70|Roy|01-02|75.33
Brodeur|03-04|20.29|Brodeur|03-04|59.33|Brodeur|07-08|71.43
Brodeur|07-08|17.84|Hasek|00-01|56.67|Brodeur|96-97|65.66
Brodeur|00-01|10.32|Brodeur|96-97|56.15|Brodeur|97-98|60
Roy|93-94|9.63|Hasek|98-99|54.07|Brodeur|03-04|59.04

I'm not sure how the Vote Share works there...
In '07 Brodeur received 14.7% of the 1st place Hart votes and 20.5% of the total points?

EDIT -- http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=545921

1,430 would have been a 'perfect score' in '07 (with 143 first place votes)
Crosby that year had an 85.6% share with 1,225 pts.
Luongo had 56.0% with 801 pts.
Brodeur had 53.3% w/ 763 pts.

 

[ilovetheflyers8]

I know the history board has made a top 100 players list but have you guys made a top goalies list?

 

[BM67]

I'm not sure how the Vote Share works there...
In '07 Brodeur received 14.7% of the 1st place Hart votes and 20.5% of the total points?

EDIT -- http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=545921

1,430 would have been a 'perfect score' in '07 (with 143 first place votes)
Crosby that year had an 85.6% share with 1,225 pts.
Luongo had 56.0% with 801 pts.
Brodeur had 53.3% w/ 763 pts.

With the current 5 place voting and a 10-7-5-3-1 point scheme, there are 260% of a perfect score available, but no single player can get more than 100%.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

With the current 5 place voting and a 10-7-5-3-1 point scheme, there are 260% of a perfect score available, but no single player can get more than 100%.

I believe Hockey Outsider found that when the point system changed it threw off the shares comparison. He found that current finalists were getting much higher shares than finalists from the O6 era for example. I don't remember when they switched to that 10-7-5-3-1 points system, but if it was fairly recently then you might wanna think about adjusting so they are all on the same system.

 

[BM67]

I believe Hockey Outsider found that when the point system changed it threw off the shares comparison. He found that current finalists were getting much higher shares than finalists from the O6 era for example. I don't remember when they switched to that 10-7-5-3-1 points system, but if it was fairly recently then you might wanna think about adjusting so they are all on the same system.

The O6 share difference is mostly caused by the mid-season and year end voting system used.

They switched from 1-2-3 to 1-2-3-4-5 in 95-96, except the Vezina and all-star voting is still 1-2-3.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

The O6 share difference is mostly caused by the mid-season and year end voting system used.

They switched from 1-2-3 to 1-2-3-4-5 in 95-96, except the Vezina and all-star voting is still 1-2-3.

Yes that's right, I forgot about that twice a year voting system.

That's good that the Vezina and All-Star voting never changed. Those are probably the most important for this comparison...I feel like Roy's Hart record sells him short since most of his best years overlapped a prime Gretzky and/or Lemieux.

 

[seventieslord]

Yes that's right, I forgot about that twice a year voting system.

That's good that the Vezina and All-Star voting never changed. Those are probably the most important for this comparison...I feel like Roy's Hart record sells him short since most of his best years overlapped a prime Gretzky and/or Lemieux.

I think it was harder for goalies to get hart recognition too, possibly thanks to the mindset of playing your starter 50-55 games instead of today's 65-70. I have not confirmed that, though.

A "hart shares versus other goalies in the same year" study might be interesting to see. For example, what share of the votes that went to goalies, did that goalie get?

 

[reckoning]

I feel like Roy's Hart record sells him short since most of his best years overlapped a prime Gretzky and/or Lemieux.

Not really. By the time Roy won his first Vezina, Gretzky was starting the downside of his career. As for Lemieux, his frequent injuries kept him from being a serious Hart contender. Mario's Hart wins in '93 and '96 were both years when Roy had fairly ordinary regular seasons and wouldn't have been a contender anyway.

The year when you could say Gretzky/Lemieux were definitely a factor was '88-'89. Roy was the best goalie in the game that season. But how far would he have gone in Hart voting? Wayne and Mario were on almost every ballot. Take them away and there's about a dozen contenders after Yzerman.

Personally, I think Roy deserved the Hart in 2002 over Theodore and Iginla.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Not really. By the time Roy won his first Vezina, Gretzky was starting the downside of his career. As for Lemieux, his frequent injuries kept him from being a serious Hart contender. Mario's Hart wins in '93 and '96 were both years when Roy had fairly ordinary regular seasons and wouldn't have been a contender anyway.

The year when you could say Gretzky/Lemieux were definitely a factor was '88-'89. Roy was the best goalie in the game that season. But how far would he have gone in Hart voting? Wayne and Mario were on almost every ballot. Take them away and there's about a dozen contenders after Yzerman.

Yes, you are correct here. Roy's best Hart finishes are the years when Messier, Fedorov, and Theodore won. Also, 2 of his 3 Vezina years were the 2 seasons Messier won the Hart.

As you said, 89' appears to be the only year where Gretzky/Lemieux had an impact. I think it's very safe to say Yzerman would have been the winner, but I think it is very probable that Roy would have been runner-up or 3rd place finalist. He finished 4th that year, which doesn't really mean much because all he got was a couple 3rd place votes, but it does show that he would have at least been in the Hart conversation. I also think that Yzerman would have been such a unanimous choice among forwards (since the first non Penguin or King was 45pts back), that it may have been a year where goalies and defensemen got a lot of the 2nd and 3rd place votes.

All that being said...even if we were to assume a 2nd place Hart finish in 89' over a nearly unanimous winner (Yzerman) similair to his finish in 92' (behind Messier), it would not put him ahead of Hasek or Brodeur in terms of career Hart shares.

 

[BM67]

Here is Brodeur's record in his 131 shutouts.

Player|GP|MIN|W|L|T|SOG|SOG/60
Brodeur H|59|3551:24|57|0|2|1399|23.64
Brodeur R|49|2947:45|49|0|0|1291|26.28
Brodeur HPO|15|908:07|15|0|0|2342|21.60
Brodeur RPO|8|479:56|8|0|0|177|22.13