Markov or Vanek?

[Scriptor]

I f I had to choose one of the two, I'd still say 'both'

 

[Rapala]

I f I had to choose one of the two, I'd still say 'both'

Good odds TV won't end up in Detroit

 

[Agnostic]

Detroit Lidstrom
I'm fairly certain Nicklas was their benchmark 7.6
Even with Datsyuk and Zetterberg...

Using that as the example, Price should never have been allowed to have a salary greater than Markov. Markov has been the team MVP for a decade.

I just don't see a goalie being a good benchmark, the supply/demand markets are different than for top defenseman.

Best case scenario is Vanek and Subban are given similar AAV'S and the defacto upper limit is created for a foreseeable future.

 

[Monctonscout]

Simple question - when it comes time to sign free agents at season end, assuming -

- they would be after roughly the same $$$ ($6M or in that neighborhood),
- Vanek is interested in staying,
- we still need to settle with the mighty PK

...to whom would you accord cash and prizes?

Personally, I would cut Markov loose, has value and still an asset, but too old and fragile. With Beaulieu's stock rising, and Tinordi pretty much settled in now, I'd take Vanek to the bank. I'd give him the 3-year contract Markov wants, and let him finish his career - in Detroit (they'd love him there ). Oh, and offer a boatload to Subban long-term

It should never be either or.

1-Markov will cost about 1/4 to 1/5 of the money Vanek will(2 years 11-12 mil vs 7-8 years at 50-55 mil)

2-There is nothing preventing us from keeping both. If it creates issues cap wise, then do something with guys like Briere Bourque and/or Moen and replace them with cheaper players.

3-Vanek it strictly becomes if he wants to stay, the Habs can surely pay him whatever he wants 7-8.5 mil if he wants it, though he may take less wherever he goes to potentially play on a winner.

 

[Rapala]

I f I had to choose one of the two, I'd still say 'both'

Maybe this Vanek acquisition is all smoke and mirrors.
MB true goal is to get Moulson for Molson
Pulling it off when everyone thinks we are trying to sign Vanek.
So Vanek to Minny for Moulson while we retain his rights.
So yeah both Moulson and Markov.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Habs have usually had to "overpay" players. Nothing new there.

He signed his contract already. The market passes guys by all the time, I doubt he cares. He'll still have a big contract coming in 2019, plenty of time for him to catch up and take the lead.

Anyway, where I think there is a disconnect between the fans' perspective and management's is on the Subban docket. Many of us (not all) are more than willing to see him get paid big money. $8M per was my number. Subban was on the 3rd pairing again last night and is clearly not seen by coaching/management as the player we fans see, however. They don't see "Norris Trophy" and they do see "defensive liability". To the extent they've essentially manufactured a self-fulfilling prophecy of regression in Subban's game. I can really see a lot of strife coming down the pipeline on the Subban contract. I can see them arguing he shouldn't get more than Markov. Markov *is* our #1 defenseman this year. I can see Markov getting around $6M. I can see them bargaining hard for $5-6M for Subban. And that's a recipe for disaster for us, IMHO. Though it would ease a few cap wrinkles if Subban just caved in with the CH in his heart again, like he did last time....

Yup.

But no point worrying about it now. Hopefully MB isn't that stupid. If they **** it up though...

I'll tell ya, if I were PK, I'd not want to play for MT, and would play hardball.

Hopefully PK is able to see that MT is only here temporarily.

 

[MTL-rules]

Neither Vanek nor Markov are $6 million per year players.

Not enough for Vanek.

Too much for Markov.

I don't know if you follow the going rate for prime defencemen... but 6mil is a starting point for 25min Top 15 scoring defencemen who plays in all games situations.

If we get less, it's because we'll give him more years and he'll take a hometown discount to stay and retire a hab.

I'll respond to the OP that it's not a debate. We can keep both.

Just let Gionta go and By-out/trade Bourque.

Vanek 8y - 64mil
Markov 4y - 21mil

Both front loaded contracts...

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I don't know if you follow the going rate for prime defencemen... but 6mil is a starting point for 25min Top 15 scoring defencemen who plays in all games situations.

If we get less, it's because we'll give him more years and he'll take a hometown discount to stay and retire a hab.

I'll respond to the OP that it's not a debate. We can keep both.

Just let Gionta go and By-out/trade Bourque.

Vanek 8y - 64mil
Markov 4y - 21mil

Both front loaded contracts...

I'd rather pay Markov 12 m for 2 years. 6 mil is probably more than he's worth but at least its a shorter term. I really don't like the idea of committing him for four.

 

[MTL-rules]

I'd rather pay Markov 12 m for 2 years. 6 mil is probably more than he's worth but at least its a shorter term. I really don't like the idea of committing him for four.

Neither do I, but I'm ready to commit over 3 or 4 years instead of losing him via free agency...

 

[WG]

Habs have usually had to "overpay" players. Nothing new there.

He signed his contract already. The market passes guys by all the time, I doubt he cares. He'll still have a big contract coming in 2019, plenty of time for him to catch up and take the lead.

Anyway, where I think there is a disconnect between the fans' perspective and management's is on the Subban docket. Many of us (not all) are more than willing to see him get paid big money. $8M per was my number. Subban was on the 3rd pairing again last night and is clearly not seen by coaching/management as the player we fans see, however. They don't see "Norris Trophy" and they do see "defensive liability". To the extent they've essentially manufactured a self-fulfilling prophecy of regression in Subban's game. I can really see a lot of strife coming down the pipeline on the Subban contract. I can see them arguing he shouldn't get more than Markov. Markov *is* our #1 defenseman this year. I can see Markov getting around $6M. I can see them bargaining hard for $5-6M for Subban. And that's a recipe for disaster for us, IMHO. Though it would ease a few cap wrinkles if Subban just caved in with the CH in his heart again, like he did last time....

Wasn't it already reported that the Habs had offered 7 X 7 or was that rumor dusted?

At any rate nobody in their right mind would dare offer PK a contract below the one Fanoof just signed. You'd get laughed out of the room. Meehan can just point at that contract and Letang's and tell the Habs to start adding.

And the answer to the original question is both. Markov, 3 X 5.75; Subban 8 X 8, Vanek 7 X 7.5. Drop Bork and Briere through a hole in the ice if you have to make room.

And PK already caved in once, so he's going to make bank this time.

 

[JAVO16]

I'd rather pay Markov 12 m for 2 years. 6 mil is probably more than he's worth but at least its a shorter term. I really don't like the idea of committing him for four.

It's pretty much exactly in the ball park of what he's worth considering his age. He's still one of the best PP QBs in the league. His puck moving abilities are still amongst the best in the league (and a sore need on a D squad that's inept at passing the puck like ours). He can get beat by fast forwards, but can usually attenuate this with good positioning and stick work. Finally, he's surprisingly more physical than he used to be. Markov is well worth 6M. Besides the injury concern, which is there for pretty much every player, I don't see Markov's game regressing that much in the next few years. 4 years might be pushing it, but I think that 3 is more than acceptable.

 

[Rapala]

Yup.

But no point worrying about it now. Hopefully MB isn't that stupid. If they **** it up though...

Hopefully PK is able to see that MT is only here temporarily.

God i hope you are right.
Unfortunately if we win round 1 we may be forced to lose another year of player progression,
and i really and truly don't want to lose round 1

 

[Blind Gardien]

At any rate nobody in their right mind would dare offer PK a contract below the one Fanoof just signed. You'd get laughed out of the room. Meehan can just point at that contract and Letang's and tell the Habs to start adding.

I honestly think our management would feel that Subban is inferior to Phaneuf and Letang and deserves less. But indeed, Meehan will have a good argument against that, with reference to Mr. James Norris. It could, sadly for us, become quite a battle if management really feels that way.

And PK already caved in once, so he's going to make bank this time.

He'll make it if he wants it badly enough, anyway. Just hoping that's still with us.

 

[Maffew]

Gionta's money should be going to Subban's new contract (and then some!), but having both Markov (looking at around 6mm), and Vanek (7-8mm) would require too many variables. Unless Bergevin goes hard after these signings, I doubt he'll buy out too many vets (Briere, Bourque, maybe even re-signing Gionta at a large pay-cut...don't count it out, he's our captain afterall) to make that room.

I really really really really really really really really really really want to see Vanek stay here with this group we have, but man oh man, I'm going to be sad if he does leave, and won't even be shocked.

 

[dutchy29]

These two players will not be looking for the same amount per year or the same term.
I think this team has to sign Markov, he has been our best defenseman this season. Has always played here. I feel like he will want to stay put, and we need him. if we can sign him for 5 million for 3 years we better do it. even 5million for 4 years I would do. Nothing over 5million a season unless its for shorter term. IMO

 

[dutchy29]

I think signing PK to an 8million dollar contract for long term is a mistake, but I guess only time will tell.

 

[HABS win CUPS*]

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2...acioretty-vanek-price-vezina-subban-gallagher

According to Pierre Lebrun, Andrei Markov's agent Sergei Berezin doesn't think the Habs and his camp are too far apart in contract negotiations, which should definitely be seen as good news


im liking the sound of this - then Bergevin should focus on Subban and Vanek then clear some space to bring back Gionta and then Eller/White/Weise

 

[HABS win CUPS*]

I think signing PK to an 8million dollar contract for long term is a mistake, but I guess only time will tell.

i dont he's been the best thing to happen to the habs for a long time

 

[TT1]

lombardi said that the cap might be as low as 68M next season, i really cant see us signing both markov and vanek. subban is gonna get close to 8.5m and it'll take at least 8m to have vanek even consider signing with us

you guys should just let go of that dream. it'll be less painful when it doesnt happen

 

[Blind Gardien]

lombardi said that the cap might be as low as 68M next season, i really cant see us signing both markov and vanek. subban is gonna get close to 8.5m and it'll take at least 8m to have vanek even consider signing with us

you guys should just let go of that dream. it'll be less painful when it doesnt happen

Losing Vanek can't happen because of the Cap, though. If we can sign him, Markov, and Subban, even at a $68M cap, we do it. No ifs ands or buts. If we lose him, it's because he wants to go play somewhere else, that's all.

 

[Beendair Donedat]

I think it will depend on what Bergevin can do in the off season. If he could somehow shed Rene Bourque's or Briere's contracts at the draft than he could work some magic. Subban is the main priority. Vanek a close second. Markov third.

Cap is expected to be at 71 million next year. Subban and Vanek both get 8 on long term deals. Markov gets 5.5 over 3 years. That pretty much eats up the new cap space.

One of Bouillon, Weaver, Murray should be re-signed at around what they are currently making. Tinordi and Pateryn or Beaulieu should battle for spots.

Weise and White will likely be re-upped at similar value. Doubt Parros is re-signed.

2015 lineup

Pacioretty - Desharnais - Vanek
Galchenyuk - Plekanec - Gallagher
Prust - Eller - Briere
Moen - White - Weise
Bournival

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Tinordi - Weaver

I'd like to see the Habs beef up the right wing position a bit more by acquiring a big guy with toughness that could score. A kid I'd like would be Devante Smith-Pelly. Or a Chris Stewart. I'd think that both guys would slot in very nicely on the third line replacing Briere.

 

[Tyson]

Let's see-
Markov wants to be a Hab, is the current iron man on the team surprisingly. Has had a great season, better than Subban IMO. 35 is not old for an athlete in this day and age.
Vanek has made it clear that he wants to test the market. I like what he brings but realistically Markov eats 25 minutes of ice time nightly, that is hard to replace. Markov has played 761 games, he has another 3 seasons worth IMO.

 

[raffibomb]

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2...acioretty-vanek-price-vezina-subban-gallagher

According to Pierre Lebrun, Andrei Markov's agent Sergei Berezin doesn't think the Habs and his camp are too far apart in contract negotiations, which should definitely be seen as good news


im liking the sound of this - then Bergevin should focus on Subban and Vanek then clear some space to bring back Gionta and then Eller/White/Weise

No. I have a calendar that I am Xing out the days until he is gone.

 

[Tyson]

lombardi said that the cap might be as low as 68M next season, i really cant see us signing both markov and vanek. subban is gonna get close to 8.5m and it'll take at least 8m to have vanek even consider signing with us

you guys should just let go of that dream. it'll be less painful when it doesnt happen

Is Subban really worth 8.5 million? I don't think so. He is not nearly as good as Doughty. No way his paycheck should be that high...

 

[TT1]

Is Subban really worth 8.5 million? I don't think so. He is not nearly as good as Doughty. No way his paycheck should be that high...

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1552869
hes not worth 8.5 but thats what he'll get

heres a nice interview fournier did with MB, he talks about the RFA/UFA situation. doesnt say much on subban tho
http://www.985sports.ca/lecteur/audio/ron-fournier-s-entretient-avec-marc-bergevin-dire-217645.mp3
http://www.985sports.ca/lecteur/audio/ron-fournier-s-entretient-avec-marc-bergevin-dire-217645.mp3