I ranked Messier and Geoffrion one after the other in the HOH Top 100 project initial list. I felt they are comparable. They both played on dynasty teams and are known for their playoff heroics. Messier is usually ranked a lot higher. I thought that’s wrong. So I decided to take a closer look at them. My estimation was that they would come out quite similar.
REGULAR SEASON
POINTS (Top 10)
Geoffrion 7 times (1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 7)
Messier 6 times (2, 3, 5, 5, 7, 10)
Messier’s career obviously overlapped with both Gretzky and Lemieux. In 1990 Messier was 2nd only to Gretzky. It must be noted, though, that Geoffrion had to compete against in-his-prime Gordie Howe all of his career. And even if we point out the famous fact that Boom Boom won his first scoring title only by one point (he beat the Rocket who played 3 less games), he still comes ahead in my opinion.
GOAL SCORING
Geoffrion 8 times (1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 8, 9)
Messier 4 times (8, 9, 9, 9)
No comments needed. Geoffrion wins.
PLAYMAKING
Geoffrion 5 times (6, 6, 6, 7, 10)
Messier 6 times (2, 3, 5, 6, 6, 8)
Messier was the better playmaker.
CONCLUSIONS
Geoffrion was the better offensive player. He was easily the better goal-scorer and his playmaking was good enough to help him win two scoring titles, something Messier was unable to do during his long and succesful career.
PLAYOFFS
Both won 6 Stanley Cups. Messier did it in two teams. Or three, if you consider the Oilers without Gretzky a different team from the Oilers with Gretzky. That’s of course a huge plus for Messier. He was able to win in different conditions. He found a way to win. That’s why he’s considered one of the greatest leaders in the sport’s history. But you can’t fault Geoffrion for being a key part of the greatest team ever assembled.
Let’s take a look at both player’s 6 Stanley Cup runs.
Geoffrion
1952-53: Boom Boom was the leading scorer of the Canadiens with 10 points in 12 games. The Rocket was second with 8 points and Lach 3rd with 7 points.
1955-56: Geoffrion, The Rocket and Olmstead had 14 points in 10 games. Beliveau was the leading scorer with incredible 19 points (12 goals).
1956-57: If Beliveau’s 19 points was incredible, the same can be said for Boom Boom’s 11 goals and 18 points in 10 games. Beliveau was now 2nd with 12 points and the Rocket 3rd with 11 points.
1957-58: Geoffrion placed 3rd with 11 points behind Beliveau (12 pts) and Maurice Richard (15 pts).
1958-59: Again Geoffrion placed 3rd with 13 points with 11 games. Only Dickie Moore (17 pts) and a surprise name Marcel Bonin (15 pts) scored more.
1959-60: The Pocket Rocket and Geoffrion both had team-leading 12 points in an eight-game run. Moore was 3rd with 10 points.
Geoffrion contributed to 6 Stanley Cup winning teams greatly. He lead the team in points 3 times, was 2nd once and 3rd twice. After this breakdown it’s not a surprise to find out that Geoffrion was the leading playoff scorer (total points and points average) from 1956 to 1960 when the Habs won 5 consecutive Stanley Cups. Source. It’d be safe to say that Geoffrion would have at least one Conn Smythe trophy had it existed when he played in the NHL.
Messier
1983-84: Messier is 3rd with 26 points in 22 games, only behind Gretzky (35 pts) and Kurri (28 pts). However, it was Messier who was named as the most valuable player in the playoffs.
1984-85: Messier is 5th behind Gretzky, Coffey, Kurri and Anderson.
1986-87: Messier is 2nd with 28 points in 21 games. Gretzky led the team with 34 points.
1987-88: Again it was Gretzky who led the team, this time with 43 points. Messier was 2nd with 34 points in 19 games.
1989-90: Now the Oilers had to survive without Gretzky. They did. Craig Simpson and Messier both had 31 points in 22 games to lead the team.
1993-94: Brian Leetch was the leading scorer for the Rangers with his epic display. The defenseman had 34 points in 23 games. Messier was 2nd with 30 points.
Also Messier contributed consistently to winning. 4 times he was at least 2nd in scoring. Twice he was 2nd to only Gretzky. His Conn Smythe trophy seems quite controversial but as I haven’t seen the games, I’m not in the position to critizice the selection.
CONCLUSIONS
Their playoff legacies from their Stanley Cup runs are quite equal. Boom Boom led the team in scoring 3 times. Had the award existed, he would have been awarded the Conn Smythe trophy at least once, in 1957. Messier was 2nd to Gretzky twice and he was awarded the Conn Smythe trophy in 1984 when he was 3rd in scoring. Boom Boom was the best playoff scorer of the greatest team ever. Messier was a thriving force in different conditions. If there’s a difference, it’s minimal. I’ll call it a wash.
INTANGIBLES
Because I haven’t seen the two play in their primes, I’m not the best person to talk about their playing styles. But as far as I know, neither was great defensively. Messier had the physical element in his game and he is widely regarded as one of the greatest leader in sports history. Boom Boom has been said to have perfected the slap shot, so he was sort of an innovator. But the intangibles are on Messier’s side.
OVERALL
Geoffrion was the better offensive player. Both were one of the greatest playoff performers of their time. Messier brought more to the table.
Looks like my estimation was correct. Either way, it’s very close. Contrary to the consensus, I would actually give the edge to Geoffrion because of his goal scoring dominance over Messier.
Now it would be interesting if some of you could give extra information regarding their roles on their teams. For example, whether they played first or second line minutes and how much PP times they got.
REGULAR SEASON
POINTS (Top 10)
Geoffrion 7 times (1, 1, 4, 6, 6, 7, 7)
Messier 6 times (2, 3, 5, 5, 7, 10)
Messier’s career obviously overlapped with both Gretzky and Lemieux. In 1990 Messier was 2nd only to Gretzky. It must be noted, though, that Geoffrion had to compete against in-his-prime Gordie Howe all of his career. And even if we point out the famous fact that Boom Boom won his first scoring title only by one point (he beat the Rocket who played 3 less games), he still comes ahead in my opinion.
GOAL SCORING
Geoffrion 8 times (1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 5, 8, 9)
Messier 4 times (8, 9, 9, 9)
No comments needed. Geoffrion wins.
PLAYMAKING
Geoffrion 5 times (6, 6, 6, 7, 10)
Messier 6 times (2, 3, 5, 6, 6, 8)
Messier was the better playmaker.
CONCLUSIONS
Geoffrion was the better offensive player. He was easily the better goal-scorer and his playmaking was good enough to help him win two scoring titles, something Messier was unable to do during his long and succesful career.
PLAYOFFS
Both won 6 Stanley Cups. Messier did it in two teams. Or three, if you consider the Oilers without Gretzky a different team from the Oilers with Gretzky. That’s of course a huge plus for Messier. He was able to win in different conditions. He found a way to win. That’s why he’s considered one of the greatest leaders in the sport’s history. But you can’t fault Geoffrion for being a key part of the greatest team ever assembled.
Let’s take a look at both player’s 6 Stanley Cup runs.
Geoffrion
1952-53: Boom Boom was the leading scorer of the Canadiens with 10 points in 12 games. The Rocket was second with 8 points and Lach 3rd with 7 points.
1955-56: Geoffrion, The Rocket and Olmstead had 14 points in 10 games. Beliveau was the leading scorer with incredible 19 points (12 goals).
1956-57: If Beliveau’s 19 points was incredible, the same can be said for Boom Boom’s 11 goals and 18 points in 10 games. Beliveau was now 2nd with 12 points and the Rocket 3rd with 11 points.
1957-58: Geoffrion placed 3rd with 11 points behind Beliveau (12 pts) and Maurice Richard (15 pts).
1958-59: Again Geoffrion placed 3rd with 13 points with 11 games. Only Dickie Moore (17 pts) and a surprise name Marcel Bonin (15 pts) scored more.
1959-60: The Pocket Rocket and Geoffrion both had team-leading 12 points in an eight-game run. Moore was 3rd with 10 points.
Geoffrion contributed to 6 Stanley Cup winning teams greatly. He lead the team in points 3 times, was 2nd once and 3rd twice. After this breakdown it’s not a surprise to find out that Geoffrion was the leading playoff scorer (total points and points average) from 1956 to 1960 when the Habs won 5 consecutive Stanley Cups. Source. It’d be safe to say that Geoffrion would have at least one Conn Smythe trophy had it existed when he played in the NHL.
Messier
1983-84: Messier is 3rd with 26 points in 22 games, only behind Gretzky (35 pts) and Kurri (28 pts). However, it was Messier who was named as the most valuable player in the playoffs.
1984-85: Messier is 5th behind Gretzky, Coffey, Kurri and Anderson.
1986-87: Messier is 2nd with 28 points in 21 games. Gretzky led the team with 34 points.
1987-88: Again it was Gretzky who led the team, this time with 43 points. Messier was 2nd with 34 points in 19 games.
1989-90: Now the Oilers had to survive without Gretzky. They did. Craig Simpson and Messier both had 31 points in 22 games to lead the team.
1993-94: Brian Leetch was the leading scorer for the Rangers with his epic display. The defenseman had 34 points in 23 games. Messier was 2nd with 30 points.
Also Messier contributed consistently to winning. 4 times he was at least 2nd in scoring. Twice he was 2nd to only Gretzky. His Conn Smythe trophy seems quite controversial but as I haven’t seen the games, I’m not in the position to critizice the selection.
CONCLUSIONS
Their playoff legacies from their Stanley Cup runs are quite equal. Boom Boom led the team in scoring 3 times. Had the award existed, he would have been awarded the Conn Smythe trophy at least once, in 1957. Messier was 2nd to Gretzky twice and he was awarded the Conn Smythe trophy in 1984 when he was 3rd in scoring. Boom Boom was the best playoff scorer of the greatest team ever. Messier was a thriving force in different conditions. If there’s a difference, it’s minimal. I’ll call it a wash.
INTANGIBLES
Because I haven’t seen the two play in their primes, I’m not the best person to talk about their playing styles. But as far as I know, neither was great defensively. Messier had the physical element in his game and he is widely regarded as one of the greatest leader in sports history. Boom Boom has been said to have perfected the slap shot, so he was sort of an innovator. But the intangibles are on Messier’s side.
OVERALL
Geoffrion was the better offensive player. Both were one of the greatest playoff performers of their time. Messier brought more to the table.
Looks like my estimation was correct. Either way, it’s very close. Contrary to the consensus, I would actually give the edge to Geoffrion because of his goal scoring dominance over Messier.
Now it would be interesting if some of you could give extra information regarding their roles on their teams. For example, whether they played first or second line minutes and how much PP times they got.