Mark Howe or Scott Niedermayer

[tony d]

Mark Howe

 

[Big Phil]

See I disagree. Howe in his prime, that I watched in Philly, for 3-5 years or so was like Bourque in Boston or Chelios in Chicago or Lidstrom in Detroit. He was the controlling force in most every game. He controlled the game and was the best player on his team. And Philly was a great team during that time, with two different goaltenders as well, so he was the best player on one of the best teams. Niedermeyer never, to me, was that kind of defenceman, a guy that dominating the game for several years. Niedermeyer was a great defenceman but he was not in my mind able to dominate and he was not as good defensively as Howe was and his offence was more exciting but not as consistent and not better offensively. Niedermeyer was not as good as Stevens or Pronger when they played together. He was not THE controlling player on his team and did not dictate the pace of the game like Howe could.

Howe to me is a clear top-tier defenceman for the HHOF. Niedermeyer is a 2nd tier HHOF defenceman. This is just my opinion of course.

McCrimmon is also criminally underrated as well from those Philly teams.

I know people knock Niedermayer earlier on in his career but the truth is in 1998 he was a notable omission for the Olympics. I thought he should have been a lock for the team with the big open ice and such. The attention was too much on Messier not making it for anyone to care.

But Nieds played in 1996 (World Cup), 2002, 2004 and 2010. Without him in 2006 we were disastrous. So to say he couldn't control the tempo of a game is wrong, he certainly could.

Also, the winning intangible is incredibly hard to ignore. He did this with two different franchises. Honestly, where was Anaheim in 2004? Garbage. Then in 2006 they make the semi final. Then in 2007 win the Cup. When does it stop being a coincidence?

How about this? 1998 Olympics? Disaster. No Niedermayer. 2006. Ditto, and ditto. For that alone I elevate him over Howe.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Also, the winning intangible is incredibly hard to ignore. He did this with two different franchises. Honestly, where was Anaheim in 2004? Garbage. Then in 2006 they make the semi final. Then in 2007 win the Cup. When does it stop being a coincidence?

He wasn't the only addition.

They also added Selanne, Perry, Getzlaf, Pronger, Beauchemin, Kunitz, Penner, Marchant, Moen and O'Donnell.

They basically re-made their entire team since 2004.

 

[Big Phil]

He wasn't the only addition.

They also added Selanne, Perry, Getzlaf, Pronger, Beauchemin, Kunitz, Penner, Marchant, Moen and O'Donnell.

They basically re-made their entire team since 2004.

For the 2005-'06 season Selanne was the only player that was an impact player. Remember, Pronger was in Edmonton. Perry and Getzlaf were mere rookies trying to find their way. The rest were depth players, not impact players.

Niedermayer was the biggest part of that franchise turning around IMO. It's just an unusual amount of times a team won with Niedermayer while when he wasn't around they struggled. Like 2007-'098 with his ill advised holdout. The Ducks were never the same. To me that's impact

 

[John Flyers Fan]

For the 2005-'06 season Selanne was the only player that was an impact player. Remember, Pronger was in Edmonton. Perry and Getzlaf were mere rookies trying to find their way. The rest were depth players, not impact players.

Niedermayer was the biggest part of that franchise turning around IMO. It's just an unusual amount of times a team won with Niedermayer while when he wasn't around they struggled. Like 2007-'098 with his ill advised holdout. The Ducks were never the same. To me that's impact

Nobody ever said he wasn't an impact player. Obviously he was an excellent defenseman for a long period of time. Deserving of a spot in the HHoF.

Marchant and Selanne were 1 & 2 for the ducks in playoff scoring. Kunitz, Getzlaf and Perry provided depth they didn't have prior. Who did they lose to in the playoffs that year, an even better and more dominant defenseman in Chris Pronger ... who put them over the top after they acquired him in the off-season.

 

[overpass]

Yes, Anaheim improved when Niedermayer joined the team in 2005. Philadelphia improved by an equal amount after trading for Mark Howe in 1982.

 

[greatgazoo]

Initially voted Niedermayer, but after looking at the facts...like Howe playing at the Olympics when he was 16! And the much better playoff stats...
niedermayer .485 pts per game +20
howe .603 pts per game +54

I change my vote to Howe.

 

[Derick*]

Initially voted Niedermayer, but after looking at the facts...like Howe playing at the Olympics when he was 16! And the much better playoff stats...
niedermayer .485 pts per game +20
howe .603 pts per game +54

I change my vote to Howe.

80s, dude. You should look up where they rank among defenders in playoff ppg during the span of their career.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Yes, Anaheim improved when Niedermayer joined the team in 2005. Philadelphia improved by an equal amount after trading for Mark Howe in 1982.

Just to play devil's advocate a bit, but perhaps 1981 was just an off year for Philly since in 1980 they were the best team in the NHL until the Finals. Perhaps their 1982 improvement to closer to 1980 levels just happened to coincide with his arrival.

 

[Hardyvan123]

80s, dude. You should look up where they rank among defenders in playoff ppg during the span of their career.

Fully agreed.

To simply look at raw stats from different seasons doesn't tell the whole story.

One needs to look at everything in context, that being said these guys are extremely close.

To me Nieds winning puts him over the top, maybe it wasn't all him but it sure follwed him around.

 

[td_ice]

Howe

 

[overpass]

Just to play devil's advocate a bit, but perhaps 1981 was just an off year for Philly since in 1980 they were the best team in the NHL until the Finals. Perhaps their 1982 improvement to closer to 1980 levels just happened to coincide with his arrival.

Fair point. The Philly situation was certainly a bit different than Anaheim, in that Howe arrived at a team that had been very good in the recent past.

I can't say for sure, not having been there, but from 30 years distance it looks like the Flyers were a team in transition. They turned over their entire defence between 1980 and 1982, with the exception of Behn Wilson. Their best line had been Clarke-Barber-Leach, but all three were over 30 at a time when that was old. Howe was a player they could build the next great Flyers team around.

One way in which Howe and Niedermayer differed was in personality/leadership. Howe turned down the captaincy in Hartford and didn't want to wear an letter in Philadelphia (although he eventually wore an A). He was a quiet personality who said "I'm not a natural leader. I want to lead by playing well." Niedermayer, of course, assumed the captaincy in Anaheim immediately and also captained Team Canada.

80s, dude. You should look up where they rank among defenders in playoff ppg during the span of their career.

Howe's playoff +54 is more impressive than his ppg. Since the NHL started tracking playoff plus-minus in 1984, he's tied with Forsberg for the best playoff plus-minus among players who didn't play for the dynasty Oilers. With +54 in 95 games, he also has the best plus-minus per game of any player with more than 30 playoff games. Not surprising, from a player who was +400 in the regular season.

 

[Psycho Papa Joe]

Fair point. The Philly situation was certainly a bit different than Anaheim, in that Howe arrived at a team that had been very good in the recent past.

I can't say for sure, not having been there, but from 30 years distance it looks like the Flyers were a team in transition. They turned over their entire defence between 1980 and 1982, with the exception of Behn Wilson. Their best line had been Clarke-Barber-Leach, but all three were over 30 at a time when that was old. Howe was a player they could build the next great Flyers team around.

One way in which Howe and Niedermayer differed was in personality/leadership. Howe turned down the captaincy in Hartford and didn't want to wear an letter in Philadelphia (although he eventually wore an A). He was a quiet personality who said "I'm not a natural leader. I want to lead by playing well." Niedermayer, of course, assumed the captaincy in Anaheim immediately and also captained Team Canada.

Just looking back, I think we have our years wrong. They had a two year dip, first in 1980-81 and then more in 1981-82 and then had a resurgence in 82-83 with the arrival of Howe and Lindbergh. My recollections are that in their two previous years they had goaltending problems with the dreaded three headed goalie situation. I think you're right about 1980-81 and 1981-82 being transition years.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

I think you're right about 1980-81 and 1981-82 being transition years.

Leach, MacLeish and Holmgren combined to score 111 goals in 79-80, by 81-82 that number was cut in half.

 

[BSHH]

Initially voted Niedermayer, but after looking at the facts...like Howe playing at the Olympics when he was 16! And the much better playoff stats...
niedermayer .485 pts per game +20
howe .603 pts per game +54

I change my vote to Howe.

Just like you, I might have voted for Niedermayer a little bit too quickly... However, Niedermayer's obviously crucial influence on winning is a big advantage of his. We should also look at what New Jersey could not achieve anymore, after Niedermayer left.

Gruß,
BSHH

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

One way in which Howe and Niedermayer differed was in personality/leadership. Howe turned down the captaincy in Hartford and didn't want to wear an letter in Philadelphia (although he eventually wore an A). He was a quiet personality who said "I'm not a natural leader. I want to lead by playing well." Niedermayer, of course, assumed the captaincy in Anaheim immediately and also captained Team Canada.

.

It's funny, but Scott Niedermayer as a leader was only something that happened in the second half of his career too. When the Devils went to back to back finals in 2000 and 2001, Nieds was anything but a leader. He still had inconsistent disinterested regular season, didn't wear an A, and was never talked about as a future captain.

As his hockey game matured, so did his leadership appparently.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Just like you, I might have voted for Niedermayer a little bit too quickly... However, Niedermayer's obviously crucial influence on winning is a big advantage of his. We should also look at what New Jersey could not achieve anymore, after Niedermayer left.

Gruß,
BSHH

You mean after Scott Stevens left. In the 2004 playoffs (with Niedermayer and without Stevens), the Devils lost to the Flyers in 5 games, as the physical Flyers were able to run roughshod over the Devils defense. With Stevens (and Daneyko) in the lineup, the Devils had always been that team the Flyers just couldn't quite beat.

Just look at what happened over a short period of time. Daneyko retired after 2003, Stevens had his concussion problems during 2003-04, and the 2004 playoffs were Niedermayer's first and last as the leader of the team. So over a period of two seasons, the Devils lost the three men who had been the core of their defense for the previous decade.

But if you want to isolate it to the individual whose loss hurt most, it was definitely Scott Stevens.

 

[seventieslord]

80s, dude. You should look up where they rank among defenders in playoff ppg during the span of their career.

That was the first thing I thought of too, when I read that. But, setting aside raw gp and comparing what is more impressive on a per-game babis, I still take Howe. While it's true that an era adjustment would see his playoff ppg look very close to Niedermayer, it should be noted that it is based on a career played until age 39 at a time when no one played that long (je was the nhl's oldest player). Niedermayer's average was maintained until age 35 at a time when almost any good player played that long or longer.

 

[Big Phil]

Nobody ever said he wasn't an impact player. Obviously he was an excellent defenseman for a long period of time. Deserving of a spot in the HHoF.

Marchant and Selanne were 1 & 2 for the ducks in playoff scoring. Kunitz, Getzlaf and Perry provided depth they didn't have prior. Who did they lose to in the playoffs that year, an even better and more dominant defenseman in Chris Pronger ... who put them over the top after they acquired him in the off-season.

It still was a pretty good accomplishment for Anaheim to get that far with Niedermayer probably being their best player. The Ducks aside from that blip in 2003 had zero playoff success in their life. I'll credit Burke and the re-emergence of Selanne too, but I will certainly give credit where it counts to Niedermayer.

As for Pronger, this thread isn't really about him, but while his prescence shouldn't be overlooked either the truth is Anaheim was on the rise when he was sent there.

I think that Howe can be a guy who can get overrated at times. Yes he SHOULD be in the HHOF, I'm fine with that. But we saw the same thing with Cam Neely. When people push to get a guy in there they always elevate him to a standard that they never hit. Call it romanticizing if you want. But no one ever mentions the lost time Howe sustained. He missed a LOT of time in his career. A 15 year NHL career shouldn't contain only 929 games played. He averaged 58 games played a year. Not sure about you guys, but that's a problem with me, and I think this helps keep him out of the HHOF. I'm not going to go nuts like Pierre McGuire did and rate Niedermayer in the top 10 for defenseman ahead of Larry Robinson even, but all things considered I think he clearly had a better career than Howe.

 

[seventieslord]

Why focus on the time he missed when the time he played was clearly enough? People criticize the lengths of Lindros, Forsberg and Neely's careers, but Howe has more games than any of them, but because it was over a period of 15 years it's different?

they always elevate him to a standard that they never hit.

who's doing this?

A 15 year NHL career shouldn't contain only 929 games played. He averaged 58 games played a year. Not sure about you guys, but that's a problem with me,

Since when is this an appropriate metric by which to judge a player, particularly one who played well past his prime in an injury-plagued mid-to-late-30s?

During Howe's first 10 NHL seasons, the ones that truly prove his greatness, he averaged 71 games a season and had 7 seasons with at least that many GP. It was only the next six that brought this meaningless career average down, and one of them was a lockout year. During that time, this 34-39-year old defenseman scored 127 points in 223 games.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Why focus on the time he missed when the time he played was clearly enough? People criticize the lengths of Lindros, Forsberg and Neely's careers, but Howe has more games than any of them, but because it was over a period of 15 years it's different?



who's doing this?



Since when is this an appropriate metric by which to judge a player, particularly one who played well past his prime in an injury-plagued mid-to-late-30s?

During Howe's first 10 NHL seasons, the ones that truly prove his greatness, he averaged 71 games a season and had 7 seasons with at least that many GP. It was only the next six that brought this meaningless career average down, and one of them was a lockout year. During that time, this 34-39-year old defenseman scored 127 points in 223 games.

Howe also played in over 70 games in 5 of 6 season in the WHA.

 

[seventieslord]

Howe also played in over 70 games in 5 of 6 season in the WHA.

and you just touched upon what is probably the biggest reason he's not in

 

[Hardyvan123]

and you just touched upon what is probably the biggest reason he's not in

Well it's not because of the lack of his accomplishments but it's still garbage by the HHOF voting committee IMO.

 

[seventieslord]

Well it's not because of the lack of his accomplishments but it's still garbage by the HHOF voting committee IMO.

Howe is one of two players who I've seen C1958 (who generally agrees with the hall committee on all matters) say merits some consideration. the other is Craig Ramsay.

 

[Big Phil]

Why focus on the time he missed when the time he played was clearly enough? People criticize the lengths of Lindros, Forsberg and Neely's careers, but Howe has more games than any of them, but because it was over a period of 15 years it's different?

Actually Neely and Lindros' injury plagued careers are the reasons that they are as borderline as they are for the HHOF. Forsberg did way too much in the postseason, as well as more in the regular season to be held back because of his lack of games.

who's doing this?

No one specific per se, but when Howe is leading the polls 30-18 over a guy that I personally clearly see had a better career then I begin to wonder if sentiment plays a part in it

Since when is this an appropriate metric by which to judge a player, particularly one who played well past his prime in an injury-plagued mid-to-late-30s?

During Howe's first 10 NHL seasons, the ones that truly prove his greatness, he averaged 71 games a season and had 7 seasons with at least that many GP. It was only the next six that brought this meaningless career average down, and one of them was a lockout year. During that time, this 34-39-year old defenseman scored 127 points in 223 games.

Remember, I am not going against Howe for the HHOF. I have stated that he deserves it in my opinion. I just feel that things just don't add up for me to put him ahead of Niedermayer. Howe was never shafted for the Norris, or shafted for the Cup or anything like that. I just don't see anything he did that gives him the overall career value of Niedermayer.