Dangler99*
Guest
Who is the better all time player? Who would you want on your team?
Can a mod add a poll?
Can a mod add a poll?
If the question is Howe vs. Orr then I take Howe because I think if you look objectively it is impossible to say Orr had a better career when Mr. Hockey played 26 years and most of them as the best or among the top 2-3 in the game. Not to mention Howe at his peak was fantastic as well and maybe Orr was better but it isn't a deal breaker.
Enter Lemieux. He would have had Howe's career had he stayed healthy. But since he didn't I think he becomes a better comparison for Orr. Lemieux didn't even reach 1,000 games played. He retired and missed 3 and a half years of NHL where he is still probably the best player in the game or co-best with Jagr.
That being said Mario still comes very close to Orr's career. I just think at each player's best that Orr comes out on top and it isn't as if Mario has a ton of other elite seasons on top of Orr to make up for it. Throw in Orr's better all around game and I'll give it to him. Not by a heck of a lot, but enough for me to put Orr as the #3 player of all time.
Lemieux
6 Art Rosses
3 Hart Trophies
2 Conn Smythes
6 times leading league in GPG
6 times leading league in APG
7 times leading league in PPG
3 times leading league in assists
3 times leading league in goals
915-690-1033-1723
Orr
2 Art Rosses
3 Hart Trophies
2 Conn Smythes
6 times leading league in APG
5 times leading league in assists
8 Norris trophies
657-270-645-915
I take Orr ten times out of ten. I have yet to hear a convincing argument for Lemieux over Orr. Orr not only was the best defenseman ever (8 Norris in 7 full season; yes his first Norris was in a half season), but he also put up some mighty fine points.
The thing that seals the deal is two Art Rosses. Orr could best a prime Esposito, Lafleur, Dionne, Clarke and Mikita in points. I just have never been able to wrap my head around someone being that good.
199 points.
I voted Lemieux becouse i'm biased but in any serious ranking of all-time players i would pick Orr. However, i do think that WHEN Lemieux actually stepped out on the ice healthy for a change, he WAS the best ever.
Because you believe Orr was 100% healthy when he played?
We're talking about a guy that would walk into the dressing room on crutches and then go out and be the best player on the ice.
'76 Canada Cup ring a bell?
I would say that winning the following:
Art Ross
Hart
Norris
Conn Smythe
all in one season is a good competition for being the better season than 199.
Not really.
Not really.
Of course he was good there but he also had stretches during the 1995-96 season and in the 1992 playoffs that was his bests, amongst others. 71 adjusted goals is a pretty competitive number since as you said Orr had 31 and 41 less points.Let's take a closer look.
In 1970 Orr had
33-87-120 in 76 games
That turns into
33-91-124 adjusted points
In 1990 Lemieux had
85-114-199 in 76 games
That turns into
71-94-165 adjusted points
A 41 point difference isn't that big considering the difference in positions. Couple that with Orr's HUGE jump in defensive play and I think it's fair to say that Orr had the higher peak.
You hav'nt adjusted for games played in the seasons have you? The thing with Lemieux is we for various reasons only saw his best during more or less short stretches. I wont claim that Lemieux ever was a better passer than Gretzky, but i do hold his goalscoring in very high regard in an era where Gretzkys goal scoring mysteriously plummeted although it was still well before he turned 30.Lemieux had Gretzky to compete with (out of the ten best adjusted seasons Gretzky had seven including the top two and four of the top five. Jagr had ten so Lemieux only had two of the ten) and it makes Lemieux look worse in comparison.
Coffey DID NOT touch Orr offensively considering the era and quality of teammates. No-one on D is even close.Orr had no one in his league. The only other person who touched him offensively (Coffey) was far weaker defensively.
In terms of peak I still take Orr, even if you ignore Gretzky. But having Gretzky there makes it harder for Lemieux to stand above Orr.
Lets not act like Orr was a typical defensemen. He was basically a forward as well.