Mario Lemieux circa 1988-89 = 65 goals and 88 assists for 153 points in 2022

[klefbombs shoulder]

Yeah, on that note it seems like PPO’s also peaked around when Mario had his most PP points:

View attachment 730382

So it might be worth adjusting for that.

Would be an interesting exercise but something I don't have the time to do unfortunately.

 

[Michael Farkas]

In the 80's, who should Lemieux have passed it to at even strength...? Soon-to-be-non-NHLer #1 or Soon-to-be-non-NHLer #2?

I don't want to be reductive and over-simplify it. But the Pens were an expansion team for a good part of the 80's and then again in the post-Jagr/pre-Crosby "Generation X".

Lemieux thru 90 and then 02 to the end was 42.7% power play man. But in the 90's when the Pens had a real roster, he's a shade under 38% - which is more in line with some of the other stars listed.

And I know everyone has bad teams and all that. But the Pens were a disorganized ball of **** for significant chunks of his time there.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I want to preface this by saying its foolish to diminish a player for contributing on the power play. Goals are goals and they all help win games equally.

Out of the big 4 Lemieux got the most of his points by far on the power play.

Howe had 564/1850 (30%). Gretzky had 890/2857 (31%). Orr had 324/915 (35%). And Lemieux 701/1723 (41%). 41% is a large portion.

Draisaitl is often ridiculed as a powerplay merchant and has 257/744 points (35%) on the powerplay.

4 of the top 5 ppp seasons in history are Lemieux's.

Lemieux also had a few seasons that were more "powerplay reliant" than McDavids last year. 80/168 in 1988 (48%), 79/161 in 1996 (49%), 66/141 in 1986 (47%),

Lemieux is probably the best powerplay player ever, and that is absolutely not meant as a knock.

For the record, I'm not saying Lemieux didn't thrive on the PP. I just don't think it's accurate for anyone to say he "lived on the PP". That seems to imply that the player is a powerplay specialist and doesn't produce a whole lot (relative to other elite players) at even strength. Lemieux was both dangerous at ES *and* on the PP.

 

[JianYang]

"Lived on the PP" seems an exaggeration. 701 points on the PP when he scored 1723 points overall isn't exactly "living on the PP".

His best season (199 points), he had 79 PP points, which translates to 39.7% (or 40% rounded up) on the PP. In comparison, McDavid's best season (153 points), he had 71 points on the PP, which translates to 46.4% on the PP. So technically speaking, McDavid's best season *is* more PP reliant than Lemieux's best.

"lived on the PP" means that the person is not interested in a meaningful conversation.

It implies that Mario was a one dimensional PP specialist which is obviously a foolish claim.

 

[Gubbhornet]

How do you guys normalize this data? I've never had the energy to do it, but if I was going to I would have tried something like:

1. Download ppg, apg & gpg for every skater that has done close to a full season. Say 50+ games.

2. Check if same type of distribution can be confirmed for each of the seasons. The real top players should be possible to remove here if it is needed to confirm distribution, since the assumption is that are outliers. If the same type of distribution cannot be confirmed, the approach has failed. If we can confirm the distribution, we can continue. If it is normal, what I describe below should work. If not, we might need to think a bit more.

3. Calculate the average & std for the ppg, apg and gpg per season.

4. Calculate how many std the top player per season is above the average is these specific stats.

This std will then be the answer to who had the best season. If you want to translate it back into points you just translate these numbers to whatever is your reference season.

 

[Overrated]

somehow I think he'd score more

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I wonder how much of Mario's health woes have a lot to do with his poor diet and health.

Dude literally didn't train at all, while smoking.


He didn't give a shit about his health until his comeback.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I firmly believe that Mario would actually be better in todays game than he was back then.

He had guys hanging off him. With the no obstruction rules of today he’d be unstoppable. As an old man he came back and dominated. In his prime with todays rules he’d be the best ever. Just an insanely good player.

The 89 season he was on pace to absolutely destroy Gretzky’s record. But his back got mangled and his pace dropped off. He had guys tying his skates it was so bad. Without the obstruction he’d have been a lot healthier and drawn a crap ton of penalties. I just don’t see what teams could’ve done against him.

Agreed entirely. It's not nostalgia talking, Lemieux wasn't human.

I wonder how much of Mario's health woes have a lot to do with his poor diet and health.

Dude literally didn't train at all, while smoking.


He didn't give a shit about his health until his comeback.

Maybe the most naturally talented hockey player of all time in my opinion.