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Blue Jays Discussion: Manoah gets the Halladay treatment (optioned to rookie-ball to try and fix him)

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Tufted Titmouse

Tufted Titmouse

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It's a pleasure watching Gausman pitch.

I am not a Shatkins fan, and Moreno's explosion has only made that more true (loved Moreno), but the Gausman signing was wonderful.
 
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MikeK

MikeK

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Nov 10, 2008
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Blitzkrug said:
There is one difference here though i agree it might not entirely be his weight that's the issue.

Those big dudes of the past didn't have a pitch clock to contend with. They've shown a couple shots of Manoah on the mound this season and he looks rough.
Click to expand...

Completely agree. I just don't think that's going to be the hardest hurdle for him to overcome. Just like the rest of us, Manoah needs to get a hold of his diet. He clearly eats what he wants and when he wants to. That needs to change and is, for the most part, an easy fix. It's the mental and technical part of the problem that won't be so easy to fix and what I have the most concerns over.
 
therealkoho

therealkoho

Him/Leaf/fan
Jul 10, 2009
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Man oh man dude looked like he was going to cry coming off the mound after giving up that ugly first inning 6

I really hope whatever quirk in delivery is making him throw all those FAT-balls gets fixed. They were really depending on his arm this year.
 
phillipmike

phillipmike

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Clownfish said:
He's a 23 year old player playing a premium position....not to mention years of control, or Guririel Jr...
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But that isnt an "explosion". He is on pace for a similar or worse season than Varsho and if you still had Moreno, he isnt the undisputed starter. You traded a surplus for a need. I like Moreno but the trade isnt a bad one. Not a great one but not a bad one.
 
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Tufted Titmouse

Tufted Titmouse

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phillipmike said:
But that isnt an "explosion". He is on pace for a similar or worse season than Varsho and if you still had Moreno, he isnt the undisputed starter. You traded a surplus for a need. I like Moreno but the trade isnt a bad one. Not a great one but not a bad one.
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Explosion compared to what I would have expected for a 23 year old catcher in their 1st year. I just don't like it. I loved Moreno, loved his D and his potential bat. I still wish we dealt Jansen or Kirky. Just my opinion, I am ok with being wrong on that long term.
 
Eyedea

Eyedea

The Legend Continues
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Clownfish said:
He's a 23 year old player playing a premium position....not to mention years of control, or Guririel Jr...
Click to expand...

Reverse the trade, do the Jays improve now and into the future?

Gurriel only has one year remaining on his deal. Jays still need to find longterm CF. Jays also lose versatility of Varsho (elite OF def + 3rd string C). Gurriel cannot defend, likely limited to 1B/DH/LF (no Belt?). Does the power come back? His home/road splits indicate he’s doing most of his damage in the bandbox in Arizona. Toronto meanwhile has converted into more of a pitcher’s park with sapped power output.

Moreno moving off C to find reps (2B?), lose PAs for Kirk/Jansen/Merrifield. Moreno is also one of the worst pitch framers in the league and isn’t even an improvement offensively over a struggling Kirk. Lack of power continues to be a concern and he’s making as much contact as Varsho.
 
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Hoverhand

Hoverhand

Barry Trotzky
Dec 6, 2015
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If the Lourdes hot streak doesn't end soon, I would like a detailed report from Guillermo Martinez about why he thinks that is.

Min 2500 words, 4 peer reviewed sources, Due on the 28th.
 
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phillipmike

phillipmike

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Clownfish said:
Explosion compared to what I would have expected for a 23 year old catcher in their 1st year. I just don't like it. I loved Moreno, loved his D and his potential bat. I still wish we dealt Jansen or Kirky. Just my opinion, I am ok with being wrong on that long term.
Click to expand...

I really fail to see the explosion or surprise as his bat is worse than last year. Last year Moreno had a 113 OPS+ and was on pace for 4.5 WAR season. This year he has a 93 OPS+ and is on pace for 3.7 WAR. But Moreno isnt going to play the full season, he is their 1A.

Moreno is very much a MLB ready prospect last year. But Varsho was and is an established major leaguer. Last year he had 4.9 WAR season (on pace for 5.3 WAR over 162) with an average of 4.3 WAR per season since stepping into the league. So if you arent giving similar production, you will have to trade more control for the established major leaguer. Varsho is on pace 3.7 WAR this season.

Moreno is a nice player and i like him very much too. I would have preferred Kirk for Varsho or Moreno for Carroll but that isnt happening. I wasnt a fan of the deal at the time but since Varsho has proven to be very productive when is bat isnt going.

Moreno has a BABIP of 341 to Varsho's .235, if that normalizes, Varsho's bat will take off. Also there have been quite a few concerns regarding Moreno's game this year; his power is non existent, his K/BB in the minors went from 0.59 to 0.38 in the majors . He was touted as an elite defender with an elite bat but now he looks like an elite defender with an average bat. Obviously he can improve but in terms of the 2023 Jays, Varsho is much more valuable than Moreno.

Zips is low on Moreno now too, next 3 years they project the following WAR for Moreno; 2.0, 1.8 and 2.0 compared to Varsho's 3.5, 3.4 and 3.4. And a lot of that has to do with Moreno's average bat and health, as you can see with catchers, they get injured a lot.
 
Tufted Titmouse

Tufted Titmouse

13 Cups.
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I am not saying I am right, I am just saying I dislike the trade. I thought Moreno was going to be a Jay for a long time, but Kirk's exceptional year derailed that. Varsho is good, not saying he isn't, just wish it didn't cost us my favourite prospect since Bo.
 
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Eyedea

Eyedea

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Clownfish said:
I am not saying I am right, I am just saying I dislike the trade. I thought Moreno was going to be a Jay for a long time, but Kirk's exceptional year derailed that. Varsho is good, not saying he isn't, just wish it didn't cost us my favourite prospect since Bo.
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He was a lot of fun to follow but his "prodigal" bat control hasn't lived up to expectations quite like Kirk's and the power has vanished ever since his thumb surgery.

In other news, the other former 70 hit tool guy in the system, Leo Jimenez, is starting to heat up a bit in AA. I had felt like he got a really bad rap after a solid enough season in A+. Only FG seemed to really keep interest on him rather than bury him into the middle rankings of our farm.
 
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Discoverer

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Clownfish said:
Explosion compared to what I would have expected for a 23 year old catcher in their 1st year. I just don't like it. I loved Moreno, loved his D and his potential bat. I still wish we dealt Jansen or Kirky. Just my opinion, I am ok with being wrong on that long term.
Click to expand...
An unexpected explosion from a 23 year old catcher is what Kirk did when he was an All Star and one of the best catchers in the league last year. Moreno being kind of decent is nothing compared to that.

I get that people think Kirk won't age well because of his size, but Moreno hasn't done anything to suggest he's better than Kirk yet, so I don't really get lamenting that move at this point.
 
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Eyedea

Eyedea

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Discoverer said:
An unexpected explosion from a 23 year old catcher is what Kirk did when he was an All Star and one of the best catchers in the league last year. Moreno being kind of decent is nothing compared to that.

I get that people think Kirk won't age well because of his size, but Moreno hasn't done anything to suggest he's better than Kirk yet, so I don't really get lamenting that move at this point.
Click to expand...

People just love to rag on the chubster. Who's to say Moreno doesn't end up like Francisco Mejia? Plus one of the most athletic catchers of all time, JT Realmuto, is hitting about as well as Kirk too.
 
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