Management vs. coaching

[The Zermanator]

theYman posted interesting info on the 1/23 PGT showing the Wings' identical record in 2013 to this season so far (post 151).

What do some of you feel is behind these stats, if anything? Is the similarity proof of general stasis, or is it a coincidence?

Some, like myself, are inclined to believe that it rests largely on Holland's hands. That he has failed to improve important parts of this roster and that his poor roster management more broadly has held this team back from where it could be. Babcock, and subsequently Blashill, have squeezed all they can out if this roster.

Others believe that Holland has done a great job, or at least as good as the marketplace allowed, in crafting this roster. That Babcock was overrated and Blashill is out of his depth, and that is the reason we have been a bubble team for roughly 5 years now.

Or perhaps you have a different diagnosis. Where do you stand?

Click to read more...

 

[Frk It]

Holland is a master of keeping this team exactly as good as it was the season before. It's been that way the last 3 years. No more, no less. It is what it is.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Holland is the reason the Wings are going nowhere.

One of the worst GM's in the league.

And I mean "worst." Absolutely awful.

Clueless moron would be an understatement.

It's time to stop making excuses for this joke of a GM. Fire him ASAP.

 

[Actual Thought*]

theYman posted interesting info on the 1/23 PGT showing the Wings' identical record in 2013 to this season so far (post 151).

What do some of you feel is behind these stats, if anything? Is the similarity proof of general stasis, or is it a coincidence?

Some, like myself, are inclined to believe that it rests largely on Holland's hands. That he has failed to improve important parts of this roster and that his poor roster management more broadly has held this team back from where it could be. Babcock, and subsequently Blashill, have squeezed all they can out if this roster.

Others believe that Holland has done a great job, or at least as good as the marketplace allowed, in crafting this roster. That Babcock was overrated and Blashill is out of his depth, and that is the reason we have been a bubble team for roughly 5 years now.

Or perhaps you have a different diagnosis. Where do you stand?

After 48 games they had 65 points last year. Personally I believe the roster is better than last year. If our PP was as good as last year we would be competing with Washington for the East. Coaching. Whether it is an assistant issue or head coach issue it is clearly an issue. If it is an assistant it falls on the HC to correct it.

 

[Actual Thought*]

We had a +21 goals differential at this point last year too. Now we are -4. This despite having vastly superior goaltending and the addition of probably the best rookie in the NHL adding 15 goals.

 

[The Zermanator]

We had a +21 goals differential at this point last year too. Now we are -4. This despite having vastly superior goaltending and the addition of probably the best rookie in the NHL adding 15 goals.

But the same time, Wings are much better at holding tight leads. Something they had a lot of trouble with under Babcock.

EDIT: Not sure I'd call last season's goaltending vastly inferior. Howard was good up until he was injured and sucked afterwards, but Mrazek took the baton and ran with it when it happened. He's definitely taken another step this season but it's not worlds apart.

And Larkin's emergence has been tempered by the subdued seasons of Tatar and Nyquist, particularly. That and severe offensive struggles for Sheahan in the first half of the season. I think Blashill's done a pretty good job so far. Though his offensive revolution hasn't been all it was hyped up to be!

 

[Actual Thought*]

But the same time, Wings are much better at holding tight leads. Something they had a lot of trouble with under Babcock.

They have better goaltending. The have still given up 1 less goal than last year and scored 26 less.

 

[Frk It]

I don't see this thread ending well.

We are about what I thought we would be with Blashill (record/standing-wise), though I'm concerned at how hard it is for us to score goals.

I don't like how reactive Holland was to the changing of the guard on the back end, and his general lack of aggression/creativity, but I give him big props on drafting Dylan Larkin... so I am willing to cut him some slack for that alone. Kid is a stud and will be a big player for us for a long time.

 

[chances14]

I don't see this thread ending well.

We are about what I thought we would be with Blashill (record/standing-wise), though I'm concerned at how hard it is for us to score goals.

I don't like how reactive Holland was to the changing of the guard on the back end, and his general lack of aggression/creativity, but I give him big props on drafting Dylan Larkin... so I am willing to cut him some slack for that alone. Kid is a stud and will be a big player for us for a long time.

I agree with most here that this is mostly on the management. This has been a mediocre team for the last few years in large part due to Hollands failure to fix the defense. only going to get worse with the Datsyuk zetterberg and kronwall declining

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Are we voting on who's at fault?

My opinion is that the Wings lineup isn't as good as we think it is. In an absolute sense, they possess a lot of skill, but they are absolutely ill-suited to the more recent style of play that we're seeing in the league. This would mean that Babcock and Blashill have both done pretty well. It also means that other teams aren't exactly excited for DRW roster players, suggesting that Holland hasn't destroyed the team by passing on obvious steals like some seem to believe.

 

[Dotter]

Only things I think you can truly pin on Ken Holland for is not firing his scouting staff after they failed on finding Subban over Smith and Josi over McCollum.

But at the same time, those scouts have found top talents. So while Detroit do get lucky scouting, they are also incredibly unlucky finding defensemen.

Does that constitute firing Ken Holland? The answer is no. He did get Dekeyser, Mrazek, Larkin, Green recently. So it's not like he isn't replenishing talent into the system.

The NHL wanted Parity. NHL is getting Parity. Times are changing when 8th seed teams can now win the cup on any given year.

Parity is the problem, not management.

 

[TheMule93]

The NHL wanted Parity. NHL is getting Parity. Times are changing when 8th seed teams can now win the cup on any given year.

Wrong. The only teams with any remote chance at winning the cup are LA and Chicago year after year. And maybe Washington this year. That is not parity.

 

[Dotter]

Wrong. The only teams with any remote chance at winning the cup are LA and Chicago year after year. And maybe Washington this year. That is not parity.

What do those 3 teams all have in common?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

What do those 3 teams all have in common?

Elite talent.

 

[Dotter]

Elite talent.

All tanked for 1st and 3rd overall talent. If you want Red Wings to tank for 1st and 3rd overall picks, then stop blaming the general manager and start blaming ownership for demanding the team to make the playoffs to help pad his bank account. Unfortunately, Mike Illitch and son have put the team on the back burner in terms of tanking for picks and are using the streak to make money by promoting the playoff streak and new arena. How dare these people try to turn a profit off the Wings playoff success, dammit!!!

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Both really but mostly holland

He should have gotten a dman along time ago but oh well I know what he's trying to do and he's the goat gm of all time if he pulls it off

Powerplay sucks. If that's decent we are already a lock for playoffs

 

[Bench]

When's the last time a Cup winner emerged when the 3 best players on the roster were age 35, 35, and 37?

Well, there you go. That's on Holland.

 

[TheRatPoisoner]

The correct response here is other.

There's too many moving parts here to say it's just one of the two.

It took a while for him to get stuff together, but Blash seems to be alright, other than the awful PP he and his coaching staff are organizing. Babs is a future HHoF coach and the Wings let him walk. Is he a better coach than Blash? Likely (for now anyways, who knows what Blash will accomplish in the future). But Babs was there for 10 years. It was probably time for a change and he'd be leaving at some point anyways. To make the transition now seems as good a time as any to me. And saying that Babcock would have this team performing better if he were the coach is pretty much pure speculation. The Wings' roster looks better on paper this season, but with Z, Pav and (especially) Kroner declining, it might not be as big of an upgrade as you'd expect. Who knows how the Wings would be doing with Babs at the helm still. It's anyone's guess.

As for Holland, he's been given an odd situation to deal with the past few seasons. The longevity of Dats and Z has meant that this team has been good enough to stay in the mix for the playoffs, but not good enough to contend. What he's done ultimately is to compensate for Z and Dats declining play by adding some better players around them. I don't see anything wrong with this. If given the choice between getting stomped in the first around and tanking, I choose making the playoffs all day. Some seem to disagree on that point though. And then there's the missed draft picks and fantasy trades he could have made, which are nothing more that hindsight and pie in the sky talk.

tl;dr it's not black and white. There's more to it than just management or coaching.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

All tanked for 1st and 3rd overall talent. If you want Red Wings to tank for 1st and 3rd overall picks, then stop blaming the general manager and start blaming ownership for demanding the team to make the playoffs to help pad his bank account. Unfortunately, Mike Illitch and son have put the team on the back burner in terms of tanking for picks and are using the streak to make money by promoting the playoff streak and new arena. How dare these people try to turn a profit off the Wings playoff success, dammit!!!

The amount of money the Wings make is chump change compared to how much money Ilitch spends on baseball. Ilitch wants a World Series win before he dies, not another Cup.

I'll believe ownership is guiding the Wings when i hear a single word from ownership that says so.

This is all Kenny Holland and his delusional belief that he can rebuild on the fly without Lidstrom. It ain't happening Kenny. You aren't that good. No one is.

 

[Bench]

tl;dr it's not black and white. There's more to it than just management or coaching.

The primary difference is that if you believe Babcock or Blashill failed, that you also believe the roster is somehow championship caliber. And I don't think that's been even arguably true since 2012. And the only year I consider an outright failure not to win would be 2009.

Without the right pieces, we're expecting any coach to perform miracles. Maybe in football you can create a system and set of plays that somehow overcomes deficits. I've seen that happen plenty. But never have I seen any singular coach vault his team over deficiencies in the NHL. At this level, you need elite players to carry the gameplan out.

Great coaches create a culture and system that brings out the best in players. But when your best players are outclassed at key positions, what do you expect? There was a time the Wings outclassed the opponents at center and defense every night. Even when that advantage, and great coaching, they lost playoff series. Years later with a diminished center and blueline suddenly we expect the same level of achievement?

Holland has done a good job keeping the ship afloat with his drafting and development. But that's all they are doing now, is floating. Without any aggressive moves to fix scoring issues and the blueline, the team remains mostly the same as it has for years. Expecting otherwise from any coach is a recipe for disappointment.

 

[Dotter]

When's the last time a Cup winner emerged when the 3 best players on the roster were age 35, 35, and 37?

Well, there you go. That's on Holland.

Larkin is only 19, though. Mrazek is only 23.

The amount of money the Wings make is chump change compared to how much money Ilitch spends on baseball. Ilitch wants a World Series win before he dies, not another Cup.

I'll believe ownership is guiding the Wings when i hear a single word from ownership that says so.

This is all Kenny Holland and his delusional belief that he can rebuild on the fly without Lidstrom. It ain't happening Kenny. You aren't that good. No one is.

You're right, nobody knows for sure if KH is being instructed. I believe he is. The arena is a very important thing, seems marketing the 25 consecutive playoff streak is where they are heading. It just makes sense.

 

[Bench]

Larkin is only 19, though. Mrazek is only 23.

Oh yes, I expected this response. Like so hard. I almost included a paragraph about it to start, and clearly I should have.

First off, until Mrazek can score goals, I'm not going to include him in the skater discussion. Second, Larkin, while having a nice year playing wing with our elite centers, isn't yet to the point he's carrying the load the way Datsyuk and Zetterberg have for many years. He's going to have to play center, for one. And then keep up defending the other teams #1 center all game. And win draws. And he's going to have to be good enough to convince me he could carry that load while allowing other players to piggyback him to 50+ point seasons. These are things we've seen Z and D do year after year. They are still doing it this year, even if age is showing.

We're all excited about a guy like Larkin, but to imply he's better than the guys anchoring the middle right now ignores everything they are doing that helps make his life so much easier on the wing.

Additionally, if Larkin is honestly your best player... you're in trouble. The same way Chicago was in trouble the first year Toews was their best player. They finished 20th in the league that year. That same year the Wings won the President's trophy, Stanley Cup, and had a +73 goal differential. Now that team was undeniably a contender with a prime Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom doing all the heavy lifting with incredible goal support all around.

And even if you expect Larkin to follow the same trajectory at Toews, now all you've got to do is find a Keith, Seabrook, and an NHL record breaker in a Patrick Kane. I'm also ignoring huge performances from guys like Hossa, Sharp, Ladd, Big Buff, and so on. I look down the roster at Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, and DeKeyser and... I don't see it. I'd love to see it. I really would. But it would take quite a few leaps of faith that a dozen other franchises fans could take right now.

 

[Dotter]

Oh yes, I expected this response. Like so hard. I almost included a paragraph about it to start, and clearly I should have.

First off, until Mrazek can score goals, I'm not going to include him in the skater discussion. Second, Larkin, while having a nice year playing wing with our elite centers, isn't yet to the point he's carrying the load the way Datsyuk and Zetterberg have for many years. He's going to have to play center, for one. And then keep up defending the other teams #1 center all game. And win draws. And he's going to have to be good enough to convince me he could carry that load while allowing other players to piggyback him to 50+ point seasons. These are things we've seen Z and D do year after year. They are still doing it this year, even if age is showing.

We're all excited about a guy like Larkin, but to imply he's better than the guys anchoring the middle right now ignores everything they are doing that helps make his life so much easier on the wing.

Additionally, if Larkin is honestly your best player... you're in trouble. The same way Chicago was in trouble the first year Toews was their best player. They finished 20th in the league that year.

And even if you expect Larkin to follow the same trajectory, now all you've got to do is find a Keith, Seabrook, and an NHL record breaker in a Patrick Kane. I'm also ignoring huge performances from guys like Hossa, Sharp, Ladd, Big Buff, and so on. I look down the roster at Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, and DeKeyser and... I don't see it.

I dunno, just figured since you specifically said "players on the roster", you meant players on the roster, not skaters only. :shrugs:

3 best players on the roster

 

[SpookyTsuki]

Oh yes, I expected this response. Like so hard. I almost included a paragraph about it to start, and clearly I should have.

First off, until Mrazek can score goals, I'm not going to include him in the skater discussion. Second, Larkin, while having a nice year playing wing with our elite centers, isn't yet to the point he's carrying the load the way Datsyuk and Zetterberg have for many years. He's going to have to play center, for one. And then keep up defending the other teams #1 center all game. And win draws. And he's going to have to be good enough to convince me he could carry that load while allowing other players to piggyback him to 50+ point seasons. These are things we've seen Z and D do year after year. They are still doing it this year, even if age is showing.

We're all excited about a guy like Larkin, but to imply he's better than the guys anchoring the middle right now ignores everything they are doing that helps make his life so much easier on the wing.

Additionally, if Larkin is honestly your best player... you're in trouble. The same way Chicago was in trouble the first year Toews was their best player. They finished 20th in the league that year. That same year the Wings won the President's trophy, Stanley Cup, and had a +73 goal differential. Now that team was undeniably a contender with a prime Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and Lidstrom doing all the heavy lifting with incredible goal support all around.

And even if you expect Larkin to follow the same trajectory at Toews, now all you've got to do is find a Keith, Seabrook, and an NHL record breaker in a Patrick Kane. I'm also ignoring huge performances from guys like Hossa, Sharp, Ladd, Big Buff, and so on. I look down the roster at Tatar, Nyquist, Sheahan, and DeKeyser and... I don't see it. I'd love to see it. I really would. But it would take quite a few leaps of faith that a dozen other franchises fans could take right now.

I mean Carey price can do it why can't mrazek

 

[Bench]

I dunno, just figured since you specifically said "players on the roster", you meant players on the roster, not skaters only. :shrugs:

That's great. So even if you "got me" in my statement, which clearly I didn't mean to include goaltending but whatever...

Even if I give you that point, now our best players are a 19-year-old winger on pace for 55 points and a goaltender with 36 career wins. In what world does that elicit dreams of contender?

It's a nice start for a rebuilding team, maybe. One that plans on adding substantial scoring and defender pieces. It doesn't look great on a team slammed against the salary cap, though, with large contracts tied up to veteran players.