Management Thread. The Good The Bad and The Ugly: Gunslinger Edition.

[Fatass]

anyone getting bought out after virtanen signed?

Hoping we buy out Sutter, but Dhaliwal was just on 1040 saying our owner isn’t keen on spending money like that right now.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Hoping we buy out Sutter, but Dhaliwal was just on 1040 saying our owner isn’t keen on spending money like that right now.

The buyout would cost the team 2.35M and only saves the team about 1.1M in total capspace over 2 years. The cap hit still incurred is greater than the amount of real money Sutter is being paid. I guess? It's weirdly easy to f*** simple math up.

 

[bandwagonesque]

The buyout would cost the team 2.35M and only saves the team about 1.1M in total capspace over 2 years. The cap hit still incurred is greater than the amount of real money Sutter is being paid. I guess? It's weirdly easy to f*** simple math up.

My point being that I think this buyout actually forces the team to spend less actual money.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Hold on -- they've already paid the bonus. I think this buyout is basically cash-neutral if they spend as much on salary as they can afterwards.

 

[m9]

Well conceivably you would then use the open space to sign another player, so perhaps that is where the "spending money" part comes in.

But regardless, there has been zero evidence that ownership has any trouble spending money. Seems to just be a baseless media talking point.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I'm not saying that Jay Beagle (or Roussel) are great players, or worth their contracts..but Benning has put a lot of value in their leadership (which you consider bunk 420), which got the team into the second round of the playoffs...

I don't think that was as big a factor as you think.

 

[I am toxic]

There's no evidence he could have done anything about it.

There's no evidence he or other employees of the team didn't try. In fact, Benning initiated discussions with the league about the legality of what the Panthers did and got nowhere:

“I wanted to voice our displeasure with the whole thing,” Benning said Thursday morning. “Our concern was that if Roberto was to retire and left money on the table, if the team hired him he’s going to recoup his money. They (Panthers) are allowed to do that as long as the position they hired him for is at market level at an entry-level salary for a comparable position in the league.

“We exhausted all of our avenues with the league and at the end of the day — the rules are the rules. Even if it works for the team, we were told as long as it’s fair market value, he’s allowed to do that.”

You're making two suppositions, providing no evidence that suggests they're true, ignoring evidence they may not be, and stating them as facts.

Bandy, you are correct. It's not that Benning didn't do anything - after all, he expressed displeasure to the league - but we can all agree that he utterly failed to get anything done about it.

Even though he had like 5 years to work a deal.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I don't think that was as big a factor as you think.

I'm just going by Bennings quote..He obviously puts a lot of value on the veteran leadership...Do you have some new info..?

 

[F A N]

Bandy, you are correct. It's not that Benning didn't do anything - after all, he expressed displeasure to the league - but we can all agree that he utterly failed to get anything done about it.

Even though he had like 5 years to work a deal.

Bettman has given interview(s) on this. His side of the story is that the NHL sent out a notice to all teams warning them not to circumvent the cap and teams did it anyways. Then the GMs/owners unanimously voted on approving it. So against this backdrop what are the Canucks chances of having the league change the rules for them?

What the Canucks could have done was to acquire Luongo and convince him to go on LTIR but we've all heard reports that Luongo's personality is not to do that. He's too proud to show up to training camp each year and fail a physical.

 

[carrotshirt]

So, you saw his epic drop-off coming?

2008-09	Dallas Stars	NHL	82	36	27	63	14	14	--	--	--	--	--
2009-10	Dallas Stars	NHL	82	29	42	71	26	-4	--	--	--	--	--
2010-11	Dallas Stars	NHL	79	27	46	73	8	10	--	--	--	--	--
2011-12	Dallas Stars	NHL	82	26	45	71	12	18	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Davos HC	Swiss-A	7	3	3	6	0	1	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Dallas Stars	NHL	48	12	17	29	8	-9	--	--	--	--	--
2013-14	Boston Bruins	NHL	61	10	27	37	6	14	12	2	3	5	4
2014-15	Boston Bruins	NHL	81	22	25	47	14	1	--	--	--	--	--
2015-16	Boston Bruins	NHL	82	30	33	63	12	13

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Except for his 2013-2014 year, he was good for 25+ goals. He was considered the big fish of the free agent market that summer. This was one last shot at jump-starting the Sedins, who had run out of gas during Tort's year in charge but looked good with team Sweden with Loui. You can blame JB for this one all you want, I really doubt that you were sitting there in the summer of 2016 thinking that he would immediately morph into a 10 goal scorer. This is revisionist history at its finest by the JB haters.

I certainly didn't think he'd be as shitty as he was right away, but I still remember that lovely Canada day, being in Stanley park and refreshing TSN to see we'd signed this old goat and being super pissed off because it was such an obviously dumb move/contract.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I'm just going by Bennings quote..He obviously puts a lot of value on the veteran leadership...Do you have some new info..?

I don't have info and it's not new but I just don't think veteran leadership or playoff experience is much of a factor in playoff series. Younger teams beat older teams all the time because they are simply better at hockey. I think those two anecdotes are more a justification of having those players on the team after the fact.

 

[joelCAMEL]

Any team that doesn’t make the playoffs is in the lottery ie 1-15 are all lottery picks. The team with Miller was 0.002 percentage points from being 9th in the conference very close to missing.

If you don’t think a 50 pt player going off for a point a game season was a big driver in the improvement from lottery team (10th worst) to bubble team (20th worst) then JT Miller meant not much to the success so why even make the deal?

I mean you’ve typed up a lot of words but Answer this:

Knowing all you know now, nothing else changes but the Miller trade. Where do the Canucks finish without him? Keep in mind people have said Miller was our 2nd best player last year.

I mean sure it “could” have turned into the 31st pick but the likelihood is it would be worse than The 20th spot where it landed.

The trade altered the opportunity. Not sure what’s so hard about that.

A couple little factoids. The team that won the draft lottery and picked 1st overall had .564 points per game. Vancouver with Miller had .565.

I think you’re being intentionally obtuse to not give this branch of your tree more weight.

Also who is reputable? Who gets to decide? Plenty of folks thought the option existed for it to be a lottery pick even with the trade. I’m not about to go ranking the sources for poster joe camel.

Like good for getting to the 2nd round but it seems the pandemic benefited the Canucks more than any team. Hypothetically though the trade hindered an opportunity at picking in the lottery that is pretty much not disputable.

The opportunity cost of the trade was a first round pick, explicitly.
Are you agreeing with toxic, that the cost was definitely a lottery pick or had a high chance of being a lottery pick?

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I don't have info and it's not new but I just don't think veteran leadership or playoff experience is much of a factor in playoff series. Younger teams beat older teams all the time because they are simply better at hockey. I think those two anecdotes are more a justification of having those players on the team after the fact.

A lot of players with zero playoff experience on the Canucks before these playoffs..You nor I ,were in the locker room to confirm, but if you think playoff experience is a 'non factor..'..then thats your opinion.

 

[4Twenty]

The opportunity cost of the trade was a first round pick, explicitly.
Are you agreeing with toxic, that the cost was definitely a lottery pick or had a high chance of being a lottery pick?

No. You don’t get it. I’ll leave you to toxic.

 

[4Twenty]

So, you saw his epic drop-off coming?

2008-09	Dallas Stars	NHL	82	36	27	63	14	14	--	--	--	--	--
2009-10	Dallas Stars	NHL	82	29	42	71	26	-4	--	--	--	--	--
2010-11	Dallas Stars	NHL	79	27	46	73	8	10	--	--	--	--	--
2011-12	Dallas Stars	NHL	82	26	45	71	12	18	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Davos HC	Swiss-A	7	3	3	6	0	1	--	--	--	--	--
2012-13	Dallas Stars	NHL	48	12	17	29	8	-9	--	--	--	--	--
2013-14	Boston Bruins	NHL	61	10	27	37	6	14	12	2	3	5	4
2014-15	Boston Bruins	NHL	81	22	25	47	14	1	--	--	--	--	--
2015-16	Boston Bruins	NHL	82	30	33	63	12	13

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Except for his 2013-2014 year, he was good for 25+ goals. He was considered the big fish of the free agent market that summer. This was one last shot at jump-starting the Sedins, who had run out of gas during Tort's year in charge but looked good with team Sweden with Loui. You can blame JB for this one all you want, I really doubt that you were sitting there in the summer of 2016 thinking that he would immediately morph into a 10 goal scorer. This is revisionist history at its finest by the JB haters.

Yes. Downward trend until a blip in a contract year.


Everyone knew the Loui deal was bad the moment it was announced.

 

[I am toxic]

Bettman has given interview(s) on this. His side of the story is that the NHL sent out a notice to all teams warning them not to circumvent the cap and teams did it anyways. Then the GMs/owners unanimously voted on approving it. So against this backdrop what are the Canucks chances of having the league change the rules for them?

What the Canucks could have done was to acquire Luongo and convince him to go on LTIR but we've all heard reports that Luongo's personality is not to do that. He's too proud to show up to training camp each year and fail a physical.

So Benning approached Luongo about it and Luongo refused?

Or Benning didn't even try?

 

[bandwagonesque]

Bandy, you are correct. It's not that Benning didn't do anything - after all, he expressed displeasure to the league - but we can all agree that he utterly failed to get anything done about it.

Even though he had like 5 years to work a deal.

What are you suggesting he ought to or could have done? The Panthers and Luongo had no interest in trading him back here.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

A lot of players with zero playoff experience on the Canucks before these playoffs..You nor I ,were in the locker room to confirm, but if you think playoff experience is a 'non factor..'..then thats your opinion.

Never said non-factor. It's just a tiny, minute factor in the actual games. Games are won on the ice, not in the locker room.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Never said non-factor. It's just a tiny, minute factor in the actual games. Games are won on the ice, not in the locker room.

ok.

 

[4Twenty]

Hammer. Praising the Eriksson deal and talking about $3m recapture when $6m watched from the press box and $3.5m watched from Utica makes no sense.

I’ll blame Gillis for the recapture. I blame the guy who knew it was coming and has planned piss poorly for it.

 

[joelCAMEL]

Also who is reputable? Who gets to decide? Plenty of folks thought the option existed for it to be a lottery pick even with the trade. I’m not about to go ranking the sources for poster joe camel.

Like good for getting to the 2nd round but it seems the pandemic benefited the Canucks more than any team. Hypothetically though the trade hindered an opportunity at picking in the lottery that is pretty much not disputable.

I was referring to the reputable posters who are largely anti-management. I do not recall many posts saying that the team definitively squandered a lottery pick in 2019, while there were posts that said it potentially could be a lottery pick. Even I thought that. Somehow, 1 year later, this potential lottery pick has changed into a definite lottery pick, when really, it was still a first round pick that could have turned into a lottery pick.

Hindering an opportunity is not considered an opportunity cost. The cost is the actual assets used in the the trade.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Hammer. Praising the Eriksson deal and talking about $3m recapture when $6m watched from the press box and $3.5m watched from Utica makes no sense.

I’ll blame Gillis for the recapture. I blame the guy who knew it was coming and has planned piss poorly for it.

How do you believe he ought to have planned for it?

 

[joelCAMEL]

No. You don’t get it. I’ll leave you to toxic.

I have ceded to toxic's opinion. He has stated his opinion. I am unclear about yours.

 

[4Twenty]

I was referring to the reputable posters who are largely anti-management. I do not recall many posts saying that the team definitively squandered a lottery pick in 2019, while there were posts that said it potentially could be a lottery pick. Even I thought that. Somehow, 1 year later, this potential lottery pick has changed into a definite lottery pick, when really, it was still a first round pick that could have turned into a lottery pick.

Hindering an opportunity is not considered an opportunity cost. The cost is the actual assets used in the the trade.

You and I understand the cost of opportunity differently.

Not many projected the team to be a playoff team before the Miller trade so I’d say most reputable posters on any side of the management debate would agree with that.

I side with toxic.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

Let's be honest, that Canucks pick was never winning the lottery lol.

Objectively, we gave up more in the Miller trade than I would have liked but it was a good trade.