Makarov vs. Beliveau

[wetcoast]

Not sure if I follow you. Even if a team prepare themselves for a game on the road, the other team still has the home ice advantage.
Let's take football (soccer). During home and away matches everything is equal for the home team and away team, except the home ground advantage and home fans advantage.
So why do even teams like Barcelona play differently at home compared to away? Why do the host of international tournaments often go far in the tournaments? Because home advantage matters.
It's the familiar ground/rink, familiar changing rooms, and a crowd full of fans cheering for you and putting pressure on the referee.

I too was thinking of 1980. Would USA have won if they hadn't had the home advantage and the crowd cheering for them? We'll never know, but it probably helped. (USA also had lots of preparation, which of course helped.)

I was responding to 2 different questions and scenarios.

One was the Russian National team which prepared for a very long time and the Soviet system and 5 man unit was part of their formidable success in the 80s and the 2nd part was the exhibition games against NHL teams.

Sure home advantage matters but the game held lesser meaning for NHL teams whose ultimate goal was the SC not beating a touring team.

This doesn't take away the fact that the Russian touring teams still compete very well with the NHL teams if they had treated it 100% like a regular season game but even the best NHL teams have anomalies in a 78-82 game season where they come out flat.

 

[wetcoast]

Quotes from Calgary players state Makarov was something of a pain in the butt, critical of their play and the coach.

That's on the downside of his career and there are some cold war leftover feeling in the NHL with the situation as well.

Much more relevant would be his leadership during his prime.

Many here don't seem to have a problem with the "leadership" Moose provided, mainly to boost his own ego in his Vancouver stint, but rather they define his leadership with the NYR and Edmonton.

 

[FerrisRox]

No, but -- and I already addressed this question -- professionals always play to win, especially against great opponents. In the 80s the quality of Soviet hockey was well established, and I won't believe for a minute that NHL clubs, facing such a challenge, simply treated it as "exhibition."

Gretzky, for one, is known never to take a shift off. Do you think he wasn't trying against the CSKA? Sorry, not buying this.

Have you ever watched Exhibition NHL games? Your "professionals play to win" stuff is really silly.

I'm not old enough to have watched the Super Series games or the matchups between Russian clubs and NHL teams in the 1970's, when the Summit Series was fresh in the minds of players and fans, but I watched several of these games in the 1980's and a lot of them were boring exhibition games with little or nothing at stake.

I'm really curious if you watched these games cause frankly your stance is difficult to understand if you did cause what you are talking about was not reflected on the ice.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Don't think that is true.

Yes, both players seem "good, not great" defensively to me. Makarov was a much more prolific penalty killer, but that was at least partially due to coaching strategies.

BB's main point that Beliveau's MVP record in the NHL is comparable to Makarov's in the much weaker Soviet league of course stands.

OK, but then Beliveau was a center with more responsabilities.

Regardless, even if Beliveau = Makarov defensively, this thread is still a joke. We're now having people suggesting the Soviet of the Year award is equivalent to Hart voting from O6.

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

No, but -- and I already addressed this question -- professionals always play to win, especially against great opponents. In the 80s the quality of Soviet hockey was well established, and I won't believe for a minute that NHL clubs, facing such a challenge, simply treated it as "exhibition."

Gretzky, for one, is known never to take a shift off. Do you think he wasn't trying against the CSKA? Sorry, not buying this.

Against CSKA (ignoring the Canada Cups), Gretzky tallied a lone assist in one game played during a Super Series (1985-86) and 4 assists in 2 games during Rendez-vous '87 (CSKA vs NHL All-Stars). His total of 5 points in 3 games (1.67 points/game) is pretty close to his Canada Cup production (1.84 points/game). (Gretzky also scored 2 goals in a 4-3 Edmonton win over CSKA in 1982-83, but Makarov wasn't playing. If we include this game, Gretzky tallied 2 goals and 5 assists for 7 points in 4 games for 1.75 points/game against CSKA.)

Ironically, it's possible that it was Makarov who was going through the motions. According to Elite Prospects, over the three Super Series he played in (1979-80, 1985-86, and 1988-89), Makarov tallied 9 goals and 10 assists in 18 games (19 points for 1.06 points/game). In two games during Rendez-vous '87, Makarov tallied a lone assist. That's a pretty big drop-off from his Canada Cup production (1.41 points/game).

 

[Elvis P]

#6 Beliveau vs #26 Makarov? The next thread will be Abel vs Gretzky.

 

[Staniowski]

Against CSKA (ignoring the Canada Cups), Gretzky tallied a lone assist in one game played during a Super Series (1985-86) and 4 assists in 2 games during Rendez-vous '87 (CSKA vs NHL All-Stars). His total of 5 points in 3 games (1.67 points/game) is pretty close to his Canada Cup production (1.84 points/game). (Gretzky also scored 2 goals in a 4-3 Edmonton win over CSKA in 1982-83, but Makarov wasn't playing. If we include this game, Gretzky tallied 2 goals and 5 assists for 7 points in 4 games for 1.75 points/game against CSKA.)

Ironically, it's possible that it was Makarov who was going through the motions. According to Elite Prospects, over the three Super Series he played in (1979-80, 1985-86, and 1988-89), Makarov tallied 9 goals and 10 assists in 18 games (19 points for 1.06 points/game). In two games during Rendez-vous '87, Makarov tallied a lone assist. That's a pretty big drop-off from his Canada Cup production (1.41 points/game).

Just a correction.....Rendez-vous '87 was the Soviet national team, not CSKA.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

If anything, 1990s NHL was MUCH stronger than late 60s-early 70s NHL (expansion). So the relative league-wide position is meaningless.

In 1991-92 Makarov was 1.01 PPG.
In 1970-71 Beliveau was 1.08 PPG

Quite comparable numbers, but Makarov's league was much stronger.

I don't see any real evidence that Soviet league was substantially weaker than NHL. Soviet clubs did pretty well against NHL clubs, and I'm not just talking CSKA.

I'm not sure I'd call it "much stronger". 1970-71 was still pre-WHA and hyper-expansion. Those first few years after the 1967 expansion were mostly just an extension of the Original Six era.

Incidentally that was also the year the Bruins re-wrote the record book offensively. I wasn't there, but Wayne Cashman and Pie McKenzie finishing marginally ahead of Beliveau in the scoring race probably isn't enough to conclude they were actually better offensive players that season.

Deeper digging/discussion in the last top 100 project left me with the feeling that Beliveau's last few years in the NHL are among the strongest "finishing stretches" of a long-career player in history.

 

[K Fleur]

I'm not sure I'd call it "much stronger". 1970-71 was still pre-WHA and hyper-expansion. Those first few years after the 1967 expansion were mostly just an extension of the Original Six era.

Incidentally that was also the year the Bruins re-wrote the record book offensively. I wasn't there, but Wayne Cashman and Pie McKenzie finishing marginally ahead of Beliveau in the scoring race probably isn't enough to conclude they were actually better offensive players that season.

Deeper digging/discussion in the last top 100 project left me with the feeling that Beliveau's last few years in the NHL are among the strongest "finishing stretches" of a long-career player in history.

Without doing any real research; Beliveau’s last season has to be the best swan song in the history of the sport. 39 years old, leads his team in scoring in the regular season, leads the playoffs in assists, and goes out the same way he spent most of his career; leading his team to a Stanley Cup win.

 

[The Panther]

Without doing any real research; Beliveau’s last season has to be the best swan song in the history of the sport. 39 years old, leads his team in scoring in the regular season, leads the playoffs in assists, and goes out the same way he spent most of his career; leading his team to a Stanley Cup win.

Yeah, and it almost didn't happen. He wanted to retire, but he was talked into coming back for one more season. Good thing he did!

 

[Theokritos]

I would think the Rangers and Pens were downplaying the games because they were probably sure they were going to be overmatched.

We can't read their minds, but what they said is what they said and not just after a loss as has been suggested here.

No, but -- and I already addressed this question -- professionals always play to win, especially against great opponents. In the 80s the quality of Soviet hockey was well established, and I won't believe for a minute that NHL clubs, facing such a challenge, simply treated it as "exhibition."

Gretzky, for one, is known never to take a shift off. Do you think he wasn't trying against the CSKA? Sorry, not buying this.

And I'm not buying the notion that all pros always play to win just the same, regardless of how important the game is to them. You think all pros go 100% in every single game they play? I don't think so. But even if the players did, who says the coaching staff also did? Would the coach of a team in the middle of the struggle for a playoff spot take a on-off against a touring Soviet team as seriously as the NHL game before and the NHL game after?

As to how motivated NHLers were, I don't think that's relevant. Soviets were not overly motivated in 1976, sending an "experimental team,"

Which is very relevant. It makes us not take the Soviet performance in that tournament at face value.

 

[Theokritos]

One thing that tends to get too little consideration in these comparisons are home ice advantage.
Home ice advantage significantly helps a team. Especially if they get the last shift, but also having the small ice surface as well as the crowd cheering for them.
These Soviets came to another country, stayed at hotels, played on small ice surfarce, and in front of a crowd that was cheering for Canada or their NHL/WHA team to win.

Just look at the NHL standings of the 1970s and 1980s to see how much better teams performed at home vs on the road.
(One extreme example is when Philadelphia had home ice advantage vs CSKA. Look at Flyer's home ice standings compared to their away standings during the mid 1970s.)

When the Soviet national team played even with Canada in 1987, they did so as an away team.

I know home ice advantage in the Stanley Cup playoffs of today is not as important as it used to be. But in the 1970s and 1980s it was quite an advantage.

On the flipside, the touring Soviet clubs were focused on playing the NHL. Point in case: When the Calgary Flames and Washington Capitals toured the Soviet Union in September 1989, they combined for a 6-2 record against Soviet clubs. Not the outcome you would expect if you take the Soviet results in North America at face value and then add home ice and rink size.

 

[Sentinel]

Have you ever watched Exhibition NHL games? Your "professionals play to win" stuff is really silly.

I'm not old enough to have watched the Super Series games or the matchups between Russian clubs and NHL teams in the 1970's, when the Summit Series was fresh in the minds of players and fans, but I watched several of these games in the 1980's and a lot of them were boring exhibition games with little or nothing at stake.

I'm really curious if you watched these games cause frankly your stance is difficult to understand if you did cause what you are talking about was not reflected on the ice.

You seriously think these are "boring exhibition games"? I got nothing to tell you.

 

[Sentinel]

OK, but then Beliveau was a center with more responsabilities.

Regardless, even if Beliveau = Makarov defensively, this thread is still a joke. We're now having people suggesting the Soviet of the Year award is equivalent to Hart voting from O6.

First of all, there is no hard evidence that it's not equivalent. Second, it's a strawman, because, literally, NOBODY in this thread, including myself, suggested they were equivalent. What I and others are suggesting that NINE Soviet PotY awards are certainly in the ballpark of ONE O6 Hart. There is NOTHING outlandish in this suggestion. Unless, of course, Canadian bias.

Against CSKA (ignoring the Canada Cups), Gretzky tallied a lone assist in one game played during a Super Series (1985-86) and 4 assists in 2 games during Rendez-vous '87 (CSKA vs NHL All-Stars). His total of 5 points in 3 games (1.67 points/game) is pretty close to his Canada Cup production (1.84 points/game). (Gretzky also scored 2 goals in a 4-3 Edmonton win over CSKA in 1982-83, but Makarov wasn't playing. If we include this game, Gretzky tallied 2 goals and 5 assists for 7 points in 4 games for 1.75 points/game against CSKA.

The Rendez-vous Cup was for national teams. Can you provide the stats for Gretzky and Makarov for all games when they faced each other?

Which is very relevant. It makes us not take the Soviet performance in that tournament at face value.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. Many people take it at face value.

 

[Scintillating10]

I remember watching the Buffalo game from 1976. Thrilling. I was about 11, it was a January Sunday afternoon. Actually around that time hockey was about at its high. Sittler's 10 point followed on Hockey Night in Canada. The famous Montreal Forum game was just before. Canadiens began a string of 4 Cups that year. In the summer we had best Team Canada ever. Great time for sports. I remember Olympics were in Montreal that summer, Jays were granted an expansion team. For me, it was my best time in sports.

 

[VMBM]

Against CSKA (ignoring the Canada Cups), Gretzky tallied a lone assist in one game played during a Super Series (1985-86) and 4 assists in 2 games during Rendez-vous '87 (CSKA vs NHL All-Stars). His total of 5 points in 3 games (1.67 points/game) is pretty close to his Canada Cup production (1.84 points/game). (Gretzky also scored 2 goals in a 4-3 Edmonton win over CSKA in 1982-83, but Makarov wasn't playing. If we include this game, Gretzky tallied 2 goals and 5 assists for 7 points in 4 games for 1.75 points/game against CSKA.)

In the Rendez-vous '87 it was the Soviet national team, although the CSKA players certainly provided most of the Soviet scoring, especially KLM and the Kamensky-Bykov-Khomutov line. In the 1982-83 Super Series, it was again the Soviet national team playing, not CSKA.

Do we believe that any Soviet team (in particular CSKA) approached any of their games on their tour with the attitude "meh, the NHL is interesting, but we should be focusing on SKA Leningrad and Torpedo Gorky right now"?

No, but they (well, the best Soviet players anyway) always had the World Championships and sometimes also the Olympics to look forward to, like in the 1975-76 season. For example, I think that the 1976 CSKA vs the Flyers game actually meant much more to the Flyers - after all, CSKA already had a winning record in the series by that point and the Olympics were nearing. CSKA did play inexcusably poorly still, but the game was hardly such a matter of 'pride' to them as to Clarke and the rest...

 

[Sentinel]

I'm not sure I'd call it "much stronger". 1970-71 was still pre-WHA and hyper-expansion. Those first few years after the 1967 expansion were mostly just an extension of the Original Six era.

Incidentally that was also the year the Bruins re-wrote the record book offensively. I wasn't there, but Wayne Cashman and Pie McKenzie finishing marginally ahead of Beliveau in the scoring race probably isn't enough to conclude they were actually better offensive players that season.

Deeper digging/discussion in the last top 100 project left me with the feeling that Beliveau's last few years in the NHL are among the strongest "finishing stretches" of a long-career player in history.

Late 60s was THE expansion. The League got substantially weaker. Gordie Howe put up his first 100 pt. season in 1968-69. Unless you think he somehow has gotten better at the age of 41.

 

[BenchBrawl]

First of all, there is no hard evidence that it's not equivalent. Second, it's a strawman, because, literally, NOBODY in this thread, including myself, suggested they were not equivalent. What I and others are suggesting that NINE Soviet PotY awards are certainly in the ballpark of ONE O6 Hart. There is NOTHING outlandish in this suggestion. Unless, of course, Canadian bias.

The burden of proof is on you.

I don't see what your point is. Good luck with your crusade.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Oh and can't help but laugh when people throw the "Canadian bias" card. Immense irony there.

 

[Albatros]

#6 Beliveau vs #26 Makarov? The next thread will be Abel vs Gretzky.

Most HFBoards posters remember Makarov almost exclusively as that Russian guy that had one good NHL season as an overaged rookie.

 

[Theokritos]

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not. Many people take it at face value.

On this site? I'm genuinely unaware of that.

 

[plusandminus]

I'm curious about how Beliveau was looked upon if we go back some decades in time.
At what position was he ranked on lists of the best NHL player ever? Was he top-2, along with Gordie Howe? Or perhaps top-3 along with Rocket? Top-4 along with Bobby Hull?
If including defensemen, how was he ranked compared to Doug Harvey?

I'm not talking about the all-time-best projects on this board, but rather how he was viewed upon by those living in the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s.

When Bobby Orr came along, how quickly did he (Orr) rise on the best NHL player ever talks and rankings at the time?
Were guys like Clarke and Esposito in the talk, for example when Esposito broke the scoring record?

 

[plusandminus]

On the flipside, the touring Soviet clubs were focused on playing the NHL. Point in case: When the Calgary Flames and Washington Capitals toured the Soviet Union in September 1989, they combined for a 6-2 record against Soviet clubs. Not the outcome you would expect if you take the Soviet results in North America at face value and then add home ice and rink size.

My memories of the late 1980s is that the Soviet was in a major state of change, and also that Soviet hockey of the late 1980s wasn't as good as it used to be. Much less discipline, as the system was on a breakdown. Guys like Fetisov and Larionov really didn't sympathize much with the regime.
We can also see that CSKA and Dynamo won their games, while 3 of the other teams lost in overtime.
Also, Calgary was basically the best NHL team at the time, while Washington also were a top team.

Anyway, why are you bringing this up? Why look at 1989, when Soviet was basically over?
Soviet in 1989 or 1990 is completely different than Soviet in the 1970s and up to say 1986-87 or so.
Wouldn't it be more relevant to look at results from mid 1970s to mid 1980s?

Can't you not just acknowledge that home ice was a major advantage for team Canada and for the NHL clubs?
Isn't it just simply a fact? Why not acknowledge it?

 

[FerrisRox]

You seriously think these are "boring exhibition games"? I got nothing to tell you.

Sure you can find some individual games where the stakes were higher and the games were entertaining, but, as I said, for the most part, in the 80's these were listless affairs.

I will ask you again: how many of these games did you watch?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm curious about how Beliveau was looked upon if we go back some decades in time.
At what position was he ranked on lists of the best NHL player ever? Was he top-2, along with Gordie Howe? Or perhaps top-3 along with Rocket? Top-4 along with Bobby Hull?
If including defensemen, how was he ranked compared to Doug Harvey?

I'm not talking about the all-time-best projects on this board, but rather how he was viewed upon by those living in the 1950s and 1960s and 1970s.

When Bobby Orr came along, how quickly did he (Orr) rise on the best NHL player ever talks and rankings at the time?
Was guys like Clarke and Esposito in the talk, for example when Esposito broke the scoring record?

Not sure anyone was ranking players in the manner we do today back in the 06 era. Don't recall any comparisons like Howe to Shore or Hull to Morenz or Plante to Vezina.

When Orr came into the league he was viewed as a phenom. Like no player since Beliveau, though Beliveau was older and playing with the Quebec Aces of the QMHL at the time. Orr was 18, straight out of juniors where he had played since he was 14.

Esposito shattered all the scoring records. Hero of the Summit Series. Don't really recall comparisons to other greats of the past, though.

I didn't grow up in Canada, so this is all from a New Englanders view point. Perhaps in Canada there was more comparative discussion.