Makarov or Bure

[Khomutov]

Who was the better player? I didn't see much from Makarov, but they were both Right Wing and Bure should be his successor on the Soviet National Team. Things went otherwise, but as players were their comparable?

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[sr edler]

I don't think they were that comparable at all to be honest. Makarov was a far better playmaker, and a semi-puck cycler too if I remember it correctly. I didn't really see Makarov's prime though as I'm born 81. Mogilny or Fedorov were probably more reminiscent of Makarov than Bure. Bure was more like Krutov, probably, but with a flashier skillset. On the Soviet WJC line Bure was a LW, as Mogilny held the RW position.

 

[blood gin]

Bure was the better skater, he's a better skater than most anybody who laced up a pair. Makarov was a GREAT skater in his own right. Tough to say who was the better pure goal scorer as Bure has a legit NHL sample and Makarov didn't play in the league during his prime.

Vision, playmaking, defensive play I would all give to Makarov.

 

[Namba 17]

This can't be serious...

 

[JackSlater]

I think that a more interesting question would be "Could Bure have been as good as Makarov if he were healthier?" Since Bure wasn't healthy and Makarov was, I think the answer to this thread is clearly Makarov. Excluding Gretzky and later Lemieux he may have been the best forward in the world during the 80s.

 

[Batis]

I think that a more interesting question would be "Could Bure have been as good as Makarov if he were healthier?" Since Bure wasn't healthy and Makarov was, I think the answer to this thread is clearly Makarov. Excluding Gretzky and later Lemieux he may have been the best forward in the world during the 80s.

Yes that is a far more interesting question. Bure was not on pace to have a career as impressive as Makarov when his injury problems started though. If we look at how Bure finished in scoring among Russian players up until his injury problems really started in 95/96 at age 24 this is what we come up with. 2nd (behind Mogilny) in 92/93, 2nd (behind Fedorov) in 93/94, 5th (behind Fedorov, Mogilny, Makarov and Larionov) in 91/92, 5th (behind Zhamnov, Fedorov, Mogilny and Yashin) in 94/95. In 90/91 Bure finished tied for 3rd in scoring in the Soviet League at age 19 but if we adjust for the Soviet players playing in other leagues I don't think that Bure would have finished higher than in the 5-8 range had all the best Soviets played in the league as some of Fedorov, Makarov, Mogilny, Bykov and Khomutov probably also would have finished ahead that year. Still a very impressive season for his age.

As a comparison to those scoring finishes Makarov had already won 3 Soviet League scoring titles when he was 23. Bure was a more impressive teenage player than Makarov though but he did not have the same development curve as Makarov going into their 20's. So I doubt that even a perfectly healthy Bure would have been able to have a career as impressive as Makarovs. In 97/98 and 99/00 Bure showed that he could dominate his Russian peers in a similar way as Makarov did during his prime but I doubt that even a fully healthy Bure would have been able to maintain this sort of dominance for a whole decade as Makarov did. Especially considering that he had not been able to reach that level of dominance in his early 20's and therefore already had some serious catching up to do when his injury concerns started. Bure was simply not as great as Makarov regardless of health.

 

[Albatros]

I don't think even healthy Bure would have been as complete, of his generation I'd go for Fyodorov therefore, but certainly very exciting thanks to his peak skill and speed. In a sense he could have become one of the most overrated truly great players in the NHL history.

 

[Sentinel]

Given that I consider Makarov to be the greatest Russian player ever and a Top 10 player in history (next to Richard and Jagr), you know where I stand on this. There was nothing that Makarov couldn't do. The only thing Bure has on him is speed.

Here is my music tribute "Makarov vs. NHL stars."

 

[tony d]

Bure was an awesome player but this is easily Makarov.

 

[NewtJorden]

As good as Bure was, he's nowhere near the level of Makarov

 

[Big Phil]

This definitely goes to Makarov. Too good all around to lose to Bure. There are moments where Bure "looks" better but I pick Makarov if I am a GM.

 

[Thenameless]

Makarov's the better player. Having said that, I still wouldn't mind ending up with prime Bure - he scored a lot of goals in the NHL and he wasn't bad in the playoffs. He could do it by himself, and he could get fans out of their seats just like my avatar could.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Bure should probably get some premium for his goals vs assists ratio, even though Makarov in the soviet league did not gain from secondary assists so his dominance in the scoring race was fully legitimate in that regard.

What do you guys say about Bure's centers, and i guess other members of his units?
Sure it could be that peak Larionov was not Gretzky or even Dale Hawerchuk, but "the professor" at his peak and even prime surely was better than Cliff Ronning or Viktor Kozlov. How about Krutov vs. Geoff Courtnall or Ray Whitney? Fetisov and Kasatonov vs. Lumme or Svehla?
If healthy and playing with peak Mogilny, Zhamnov, Konstantinov and Zubov. How close could he have come?

 

[Albatros]

I would say peak Larionov was way above Dale Hawerchuk, Makarov had the privilege to play with players almost as good as him (and in the case of Fetisov arguably better), but I don't think that can be used against him considering that he got there exactly by being good enough.

 

[Pominville Knows]

I would say peak Larionov was way above Dale Hawerchuk, Makarov had the privilege to play with players almost as good as him (and in the case of Fetisov arguably better), but I don't think that can be used against him considering that he got there exactly by being good enough.

So how did the other ones except Fetisov get there?

Fact of the matter is that Mogilny, Zhamnov, Konstantinov and Zubov is probably worse overall then what Makarov had to deal with. So give him Fedorov instead of Zhamnov then if you wish.

 

[JackSlater]

I would say peak Larionov was way above Dale Hawerchuk, Makarov had the privilege to play with players almost as good as him (and in the case of Fetisov arguably better), but I don't think that can be used against him considering that he got there exactly by being good enough.

Removing Gretzky a peak Hawerchuk is likely a Hart and Art Ross winner. I don't see how Larionov was way above Hawerchuk. I do agree that Makarov can't be punished for playing with great players, particularly when he was the greatest (of the forwards anyway) among them. It is context that has to be considered though.

 

[Theokritos]

Yeah, I'd like to hear the argument why Larionov should be considered "way above Dale Hawerchuk". I can't see too much separation between them, regardless who out of the two you put on top.

 

[Albatros]

So how did the other ones except Fetisov get there?

Makarov got there by playing pond hockey with his 10 years older brother Nikolai who went on to become one of the best defensemen in the Soviet league. Nikolai's teammate in junior hockey was Valeri Kharlamov whom Sergei started to idolize, and by following that example excelled himself in the juniors - eventually making it to what was an unusually strong Chelyabinsk senior team which earned him a spot in the Soviet WJC team together with his Traktor teammate Sergei Starikov - winning back-to-back gold medals. Tikhonov understood his talent and called him up in the Soviet national team right away, again winning World Championship gold after Czechoslovakia had taken the two previous editions. After that feat transfer to the CSKA to play with his idol Kharlamov was just a formality, and there he was put in a youth line with the local boy Krutov. At the time of Kharlamov's tragic death a few years later Makarov was already the natural heir, and after the addition of Larionov the Green Line was then complete as the new face of Soviet hockey.

 

[Habsfan18]

Agree with the others here. I’m a huge fan of Bure and he was one of my favorite players to watch ever, but Makarov was definitely the better player.

 

[Batis]

It is worth noting that Makarov already had been voted a top 4 player in both the Soviet Union and Europe for 3 straight seasons when Larionov joined CSKA and the Green Unit was put together. He had also already won 2 scoring titles in the Soviet League.

In 78/79 Makarov finished 4th in the Izvestia golden stick voting (Best player in Europe). He also made both the Soviet and WHC All-Star teams as well as leading the WHC in goalscoring and recieving the Directorates Best Forward award. During this season Makarov played with the Golikov brothers internationally. Domestically I am not sure who he played with though. But since the Kharlamov-Petrov-Mikhailov and Kapustin-Zhluktov-Balderis lines most likely played together domestically as well during this season that would mean that Makarov played on one of the lower lines with some combination of Vikulov, Anisin, Volchkov, Lobanov, Krutov (18 years old) and Popov.

In 79/80 Makarov was 1st in both the Izvestia golden stick and Soviet player of the year voting. He also led the Soviet League in scoring and made the Soviet All-Star team. During this season he again played with the Golikov brothers internationally. Domestically it is again difficult to say exactly who Makarov played with. During the 79/80 Super Series Makarov played on a line with Balderis and Zhluktov. But since the mainstay on that line Kapustin was injured at the time of that series it is possible that Makarov only played with them for the time that Kapustin was injured (14 games). Since the most productive line domestically during that season was Krutov-Kharlamov-Mikhailov (tied with Shalimovs line on Spartak) according to hockeyarchives that would seem to suggest that Petrov did not play with Kharlamov and Mikhailov domestically during this season. So maybe Makarov and Petrov played together during parts of this season. Since Petrov missed 12 of the 44 games that would not have been all season either though. Other strong candidates for having played with Makarov this season should probably be Anisin, Lobanov and Drozdetsky.

In 80/81 Makarov was 4th in Izvestia golden stick voting (3rd among Soviets) and 4th in the Soviet player of the year voting. He was also the runaway scoring champion in the Soviet League and made both the Soviet and WHC All-Star teams. At the WHC Makarov played with Petrov and Krutov and domestically he formed a line with Zhluktov/Petrov and Krutov according to hockeyarchives. So this season it could perhaps be said that Makarov "almost" played on the KLM-line.

So while it is true that playing on the Green Unit for a long time was a favourable situation for Makarov (as of course it was for every member) he had already shown that he could be just as dominant playing with other players. I mean his 79/80 season is one of his 5 best seasons in my opinion.

 

[VMBM]

Sergei Makarov.

You know, when I started to acquire some old games on VHS/DVD over 10 years ago (this was before the now-numerous YT videos), I soon came to the conclusion, "Hey, Makarov is better than Kharlamov!". I had never thought so before, even though I always considered Makarov clearly the best player of KLM (though Krutov in 1986-88 was at least as good); Kharlamov just had and has such a huge reputation, and there were also my own romanticised memories of him. And when I started to compare their numbers and accolades, then I could really see that my eyes weren't lying; statistically, he destroys Kharlamov. Having said that, watching especially the peak Kharlamov (1971/72-1976) is still a big treat, and maybe occasionally he was even better than the peak Makarov... However, career-wise, it is a no-contest.

I'm especially impressed by Makarov's consistency; almost never a weak game from him have I seen. He was one of the best 1-on-1 players ever. Great forechecker, penalty-killer, brilliant, clever goal-scorer (the kind that could toy with a goalie) and playmaker. Any way you try to find some weaknesses/holes about his game or statistics, you just basically end up with nothing. And I have to say that I find it a bit funny when Bure is called "a better skater". Not that it isn't true, but considering that Makarov is one of better skaters in hockey history, without and especially with the puck, well...

 

[Kshahdoo]

I don't think, Bure was even faster, than Makarov at his prime. As to agility... well, you will hardly find any one as good as Makarov was. And his footwork was again one of the best ever, he pretty often beat opponents just by fooling them with his deceptive feet and body moves, didn't even need his magic hands.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Yeah, I'd like to hear the argument why Larionov should be considered "way above Dale Hawerchuk". I can't see too much separation between them, regardless who out of the two you put on top.

Larionov had a complete game and was very adaptable. Hawerchuk needed appropriate support wingers to fill specific offensive and defensive roles.