Makar/Fox vs. Dahlin/Seider

[rangersfansince08]

Who do you take? Who wins more Norris trophies? There seem to be arguments that Dahlin/Seider are generational talents, whose floor is a PPG+ and will each win multiple Norris trophies.

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[avsfan9]

When has Seider been considered a generational talent?

 

[Bob Barker]

When has Seider been considered a generational talent?

Smells like a revenge thread. One fan says Seider is a generational talent, OP disagrees and makes this 'great' poll to prove their point.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

When has Seider been considered a generational talent?

Since he was drafted by Detroit

 

[avsfan9]

Smells like a revenge thread. One fan says Seider is a generational talent, OP disagrees and makes this 'great' poll to prove their point.

Nah just the first I’ve heard of it. Great prospect no doubt but was considered a reach by Detroit at the draft and now all of a sudden he’s a generational talent. Seems strange.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Gotta love how the OP casually snuck in, "Who scores more points", with who wins more Norris trophies.

I gotta say, the inferiority complex among some NYR fans is pretty weird considering they have a boatload of great young talent.

 

[biturbo19]

The ones that will put up the most points is Makar and Fox, which is also going to give them the hype and profile to win more Norris trophies, or be in contention for them. Because apparently that's what the Norris trophy is mostly about these days. So those two.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Makar and Fox easily. Both score more points than most 1st line forwards + are top 5 Dmen in the league this season.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

One of these is not like the other three.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

One of these is not like the other three.

Certainly not to a guy who thinks Seider and Lundkvist are in the same tier of prospect.

 

[The S5]

The ones that will put up the most points is Makar and Fox, which is also going to give them the hype and profile to win more Norris trophies, or be in contention for them. Because apparently that's what the Norris trophy is mostly about these days. So those two.

Funny thing is, Fox/Makar are also the better defensive players.

 

[K1900L]

Funny thing is, Fox/Makar are also the better defensive players.

No, lmao.

 

[The S5]

No, lmao.

The obligatory "lmao" when you have zero response.

 

[Spirit of 67]

Good luck to the OP.

Hope you get the answer you were looking for.
(I helped)

 

[K1900L]

The obligatory "lmao" when you have zero response.

It is my response, obviously, since you didn't give any arguments yourself.
Argue with me that Fox and Makar are better defensively than Seider, I'm sure that the only argument will be 'Seider isn't playing in the NHL'.

 

[Rhaegar Targaryen]

Seider weighs this down for his side

 

[Namikaze Minato]

Picked Seider out of spite for the thread.

 

[K1900L]

Right now I would take Fox and Makar over a prospect like Seider, obviously -- if you were a GM, that is the only decent move that wouldn't get you fired.

However, in 2015 you would have taken Malkin over Draisaitl, in 2017 you would also have taken Karlsson over Fox etc.. This argument is therefore absurd as it is of no content/evidence but a progress in time, something none of these players or you have control over.

As a somewhat biased Detroit-follower, I probably agree that Seider will never put up offensive numbers like Fox or Makar do (although Seider could prove us wrong, he is 3 1/2 years younger than Fox and could develop a stronger offensive game), but if he pans out as projected, I would still take him over any of these player, as he is by far the best defensive defenseman out of these four, I would even argue that he already is exactly that right now without even having played one game in the NHL:

When Seider joined the AHL aged 18, he climbed up to first pairing within a few trainings and he already put up the sixth-best single-season point total by an 18-year-old defenseman in history within 15 out of 63 games. He finished as only the 15th skater at 18 years old in AHL history to reach 20 assists, but he did it as a defender and with missing 1/4 of the season due to injuries. The argument that he is therefore somewhat one-sided doesn't hold although offense isn't his biggest strength.

This season he was sent to Sweden because of uncertainty if a season in Germany will be played and when the NHL would start. Again, he climbed to first pairing within a few skates with the team. Seider is nominated for best defenseman in the SHL (which he will likely win) and won the equivalent of the Calder this season. He is leading the league in hits/minute and has put up the best corsi for defenseman since beginning of tracking, beating all the Swedish talent that later went to the NHL. He did this as a 19-year old in the 2nd/3rd best league in the world.
Just yesterday, he put up the best corsi in a playoff game of any player any age this season (90%), which also is the second best corsi ever since beginning of tracking. I will end it here though I probably forgot even more impressive statistics.
Many Swedish experts believe him to be the best defensive prospect to play in the SHL this decade as with 19 years he already is the best defender in the league, others even said he is the best defender to ever play in this league, even better than Hedman. And these aren't just opinions of a few 'Twitter-managers', but of scouts, ex-players and -coaches and experts on Swedish TV who really have seen a lot of great talent.

But why would I take him over the other players? Because he is THE player for any deep playoff run due to his physicality, coolness and hockey iq, the former two I don't see as much as f.e. in Fox.
They can put up as many points upfront as they want (and therefore maybe win Norris-trophies), I still believe Seider will be the stronger player in terms of leadership and physicality -- both, in my opinion, are more important for a defender than offensive numbers and more valuable to a team, especially if you are loaded upfront like NY is.

But all of the named are fantastic players and will shape their teams and the league for a long time.

 

[The S5]

It is my response, obviously, since you didn't give any arguments yourself.
Argue with me that Fox and Makar are better defensively than Seider, I'm sure that the only argument will be 'Seider isn't playing in the NHL'.

That "only" argument is a pretty big one, wouldn't you say? I'll spare you Fox's advanced stats because, well, look them up yourself if you care to. I would also put Makar, defensively, at Dahlin level.

 

[K1900L]

That "only" argument is a pretty big one, wouldn't you say? I'll spare you Fox's advanced stats because, well, look them up yourself if you care to. I would also put Makar, defensively, at Dahlin level.

It would be an argument if there was a causal connection and if it would be due to Seider's (in)abilities, but it isn't. If you insist that 'isn't playing in the NHL' is an argument, you would need to prove that this is due to the fact that a player is too bad, which is clearly not the case with Seider. Seider didn't get the chance to prove his abilities hence the reasons don't have anything to with the actual content and topic of the argument.

'xy is stupid because he didn't study at an Ivy League college' would be a legit argument only if you could prove the correlation between Ivy League -> smart, no Ivy League -> stupid and if one would be able to exclude the possibility of factors like health and wealth having an impact. Ivy-Leaguers neither are automatically smart, nor are non-Ivy Leaguers automatically stupid, and the huge importance of health and wealth to study there are obviously existent -- hence the argument is invalid.

'xy doesn't play in the NHL, hence he can't be as good as a player in the NHL' would only be a legit argument if:
NHL -> very good, non-NHL -> never as good, and other factors could be excluded. We can all agree that NHL -> very good, but the argument would already crumble at non-NHL -> not as good (idk if you are a Ranger, but remember that boy Panarin?). But even if this was the case, you still would need to exlude other factors, which are clearly the reason why Seider isn't in the NHL, which are: age and a global pandemic.

Again, Fox is a fantastic player, even defensively, all of the named are, and he will probably outscore Seider.
But if you consider defensive abilities and leadership as a quality for Norris-contestants, I will say that Seider's chances are just as high as his.

 

[AvroArrow]

Makar and Fox have a better argument for being generational talents than Dahlin/Seider.

 

[nickdawg95]

yes sieder is a fantastic prospect, but you couldn't of put dahlin with Hughes/Heiskanen ? Lmfao had to be a player who has yet to play an nhl game.

 

[Mrb1p]

Who do you take? Who wins more Norris trophies? There seem to be arguments that Dahlin/Seider are generational talents, whose floor is a PPG+ and will each win multiple Norris trophies.

Jeez, and theyre both much worst than Makar ever was, what does that make him ?

This is insane, Id even take Makar alone vs the two.

 

[Mrb1p]

Right now I would take Fox and Makar over a prospect like Seider, obviously -- if you were a GM, that is the only decent move that wouldn't get you fired.

However, in 2015 you would have taken Malkin over Draisaitl, in 2017 you would also have taken Karlsson over Fox etc.. This argument is therefore absurd as it is of no content/evidence but a progress in time, something none of these players or you have control over.

As a somewhat biased Detroit-follower, I probably agree that Seider will never put up offensive numbers like Fox or Makar do (although Seider could prove us wrong, he is 3 1/2 years younger than Fox and could develop a stronger offensive game), but if he pans out as projected, I would still take him over any of these player, as he is by far the best defensive defenseman out of these four, I would even argue that he already is exactly that right now without even having played one game in the NHL:

When Seider joined the AHL aged 18, he climbed up to first pairing within a few trainings and he already put up the sixth-best single-season point total by an 18-year-old defenseman in history within 15 out of 63 games. He finished as only the 15th skater at 18 years old in AHL history to reach 20 assists, but he did it as a defender and with missing 1/4 of the season due to injuries. The argument that he is therefore somewhat one-sided doesn't hold although offense isn't his biggest strength.

This season he was sent to Sweden because of uncertainty if a season in Germany will be played and when the NHL would start. Again, he climbed to first pairing within a few skates with the team. Seider is nominated for best defenseman in the SHL (which he will likely win) and won the equivalent of the Calder this season. He is leading the league in hits/minute and has put up the best corsi for defenseman since beginning of tracking, beating all the Swedish talent that later went to the NHL. He did this as a 19-year old in the 2nd/3rd best league in the world.
Just yesterday, he put up the best corsi in a playoff game of any player any age this season (90%), which also is the second best corsi ever since beginning of tracking. I will end it here though I probably forgot even more impressive statistics.
Many Swedish experts believe him to be the best defensive prospect to play in the SHL this decade as with 19 years he already is the best defender in the league, others even said he is the best defender to ever play in this league, even better than Hedman. And these aren't just opinions of a few 'Twitter-managers', but of scouts, ex-players and -coaches and experts on Swedish TV who really have seen a lot of great talent.

But why would I take him over the other players? Because he is THE player for any deep playoff run due to his physicality, coolness and hockey iq, the former two I don't see as much as f.e. in Fox.
They can put up as many points upfront as they want (and therefore maybe win Norris-trophies), I still believe Seider will be the stronger player in terms of leadership and physicality -- both, in my opinion, are more important for a defender than offensive numbers and more valuable to a team, especially if you are loaded upfront like NY is.

But all of the named are fantastic players and will shape their teams and the league for a long time.

In 2015, Draisaitl was in his D+1, Malkin in his D+11, in 2017, Fox was in his D+1, Karlsson in his D+8...

Makar is in his D+4 and Fox in his D+5, while Dahlin is in his D+3 and Seider in his D+2... How does this comparison make any f***ing sense lmao ?

Its more like, in 2017 you would've taken MacKinnon ahead of Pettersson and in 2018 you would have taken Jones ahead of Heiskanen.

 

[Machinehead]

Makar/Fox really should be getting one already at the end of this season.

I mean, you could easily make an argument for them finishing 1 and 2.