Proposal: MAF to Carolina

[Toby Flenderson]

E. Lack
H. Fleury

For

M. Fleury
2017 2nd

-Both fan bases seem to agree on a Fleury/Lack swap of some kind from previous threads
-Carolina has a surplus of young D and acquires a 2nd
-Pens get a good D prospect exempt from draft and protect Murray in the draft

Fair?

And please do not argue about whether or not MAF would waive to Carolina because we have no idea who's on his list or what he would be willing to do for the Penguins organization

Click to read more...

 

[Pantokrator]

I don't know if it is fair - but I don't know why Carolina does it. It seems to me that Carolina is not at a point to get a goaltender of this level since they have no real shot of winning the Cup for a few years. Maybe if Fleury was 28 years old?

I have a hard time seeing Carolina giving up the #7 pick from two years ago for an aging veteran with a high salary. That being said, I have not seen H. Fleury play, but it seems quick to give up on a prospect.

Now if Carolina were on the cusp of winning a cup, I'd say it would make more sense.

So there is my opinion.

When dealing with fairness, I would place a greater emphasis on the #7 pick from two years ago because I personally see more value in the potential looking down the road 5 years. So, from that perspective I don't see it "fair" but obviously this is subjective. H. Fleury could end up not ever playing in the NHL. He also could be a solid contributor for the next 15 years and be a linchpin on the Canes defense. I can't see MAF having any real great contribution 6 years from now.

 

[go comets]

Lots of goalies available via free agency, it is a buyer's market....

 

[Empoleon8771]

Better idea: Fleury for Lack and Hainsey. Get a depth D and a backup replacement.

 

[GoldiFox]

No chance Haydn Fleury is added to the deal unless a guy like Maatta is coming back as well. MAF simply isn't worth it, especially with the year he is having.

Lack for MAF is fair

 

[Mad Brills*]

Fleury for lack and a pick seems fair

 

[Pantokrator]

One of the things to remember is that the Pens are coming from the weaker position as Fleury has a large salary and the Pens want to unload a goalie before the Expansion draft. Carolina has no real need for a goalie like this right now, since they are not close to a Cup. MAF needs to go to a contender, or a team that has the talent but lacks the goalie like Dallas.

The idea of getting a top prospect for MAF is not likely.

 

[SEALBound]

Better idea: Fleury for Lack and Hainsey. Get a depth D and a backup replacement.

Would do this or OP's deal.

No chance Haydn Fleury is added to the deal unless a guy like Maatta is coming back as well. MAF simply isn't worth it, especially with the year he is having.

Lack for MAF is fair

If Maatta is included, Carolina is adding. I suggested: MAF+Maatta for Lack+Fleury+CAL/NYR 2nd (whichever is the lower pick).

Even then that's touchy for the Pens. Giving up established Maatta for prospect Fleury is tough especially when the only bridge is a 2nd. This even assumes that you ignore the fact that MAF holds more value than Lack.

 

[Djp]

Not getting an actual asset fir MAF

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Really don't think Fleury is going to pull a good prospect. Not with his age, contract, the market for goalies being what it currently is, and the position Pittsburgh is in.

He has to go and the options are buy him out and pay him for years while taking the hit against their cap or dump him in a trade. Even if they get nothing in return they still are in a better position than if they had to buy him out. Exposing Murray obviously isn't an option.

 

[Toby Flenderson]

Not getting an actual asset fir MAF

I'm wondering where this mindset comes from? Not saying you're wrong but if there was no expansion draft Fleury would hold great value as a proven #1 starter. Are teams in the NHL really that childish, for lack of a better word, that they would pass on acquiring a good goalie just to screw over Pitt? I would think he still holds value among NHL GMs

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

I'm wondering where this mindset comes from? If there was no expansion draft Fleury would hold great value as a proven #1 starter. Are teams in the NHL really that childish, for lack of a better word, that they would pass on acquiring a good goalie just to screw over Pitt? I would think he still holds value among NHL GMs

I dont know where the part about teams passing on acquiring on him to screw Pittsburgh comes from.

Teams aren't going to pay a premium to help out the penguins, though. He still has value but the penguins are not in a strong position as sellers.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I dont know where the part about teams passing on acquiring on him to screw Pittsburgh comes from.

Teams aren't going to pay a premium to help out the penguins, though. He still has value but the penguins are not in a strong position as sellers.

Yeah, I agree with the first part. I do think teams will try and take advantage of it by getting a starting goalie for pennies on the dollar, but I don't understand why people think teams will just say "lol **** you Penguins, go screw yourself". Is there and precedent for teams making moves or not making moves solely to spite a team? I think the closest example is the Bruins trading Hamilton to the Flames to prevent the Oilers from offersheeting him, but even then, is that really spiting the Oilers?

 

[Riptide]

I'm wondering where this mindset comes from? If there was no expansion draft Fleury would hold great value as a proven #1 starter. Are teams in the NHL really that childish, for lack of a better word, that they would pass on acquiring a good goalie just to screw over Pitt? I would think he still holds value among NHL GMs

To an extent sure. But that value diminishes when PIT is trying to force the timeline. GMs can easily wait until the entry draft or FA to see what their options are. PIT needs to sort things out before that.

I mean does Carolina really need an upgrade on Ward? Ward has had a couple ****** seasons, but has been around the league average this year. So while perhaps CAR wouldn't mind moving Lack (and his 3m salary) for MAF (and his 5.75m salary), as they figure that between the two of them (MAF/CW) that they can make the playoffs in a super tight conference, and thus make up that money with PO revenue. However if Rutherford wants H.Fleury in return (even if he's offsetting that with a 2nd), that changes things.

I mean value wise, something like these (below) is a lot different then what you proposed.

MAF for Lack, Hainsey, mid pick/c prospect
MAF for Lack, 2nd, mid pick/c prospect

H.Fleury still holds promise and value, and I do not see MAF getting him in return unless a couple GMs get into a bidding war for MAF (unlikely).

 

[ONO94]

I'm wondering where this mindset comes from? Not saying you're wrong but if there was no expansion draft Fleury would hold great value as a proven #1 starter. Are teams in the NHL really that childish, for lack of a better word, that they would pass on acquiring a good goalie just to screw over Pitt? I would think he still holds value among NHL GMs

No--it's simple economics and negotiation. There are only so many teams that would want MAF enough to trade for him and only so many of those that even have the cap space to make that trade. That combination of teams is small and extremely limits the possibility for a bidding war. Because there is an expansion draft, any team looking at MAF can see the situation Pittsburgh is in and will look to make the best deal for their team. If the Canes don't get a deal like they got from Chicago for taking on Bickell--why would they make the trade? It isn't about helping or hurting Pitts--its about leveraging the situation to their advantage--which is what every GM should do.

 

[My Special Purpose]

I got laughed off the Canes board last summer when I asked who would turn down a M-A Fleury for Cam Ward deal, and I'm still curious. Carolina gets the younger, better, more expensive goalie. Pittsburgh saves a few bucks, has a proven playoff backup for Murray and gets out from under the expansion draft issue. Really a perfect deal for both sides, no?

 

[JoemAvs]

I think Carolina needs more of a longterm solution.

And with the expansion draft upcoming, the market for goalies probably is as bad as it ever will get.

Right now I can't see a team that would be desperate enough to help the Pens out by trading for Fleury who lets face it has not been a great rgoaltender in quite some time (especially not in the playoffs).

Pretty sure that the Pens wouldn't have won the Cup last season with Fleury in goal.

Also it will cost the Pens 1.9 M / year over the next 4 years of their capspace if they are forced to buyout Fleury.

That is not much but might be enough to prevent them from keeping that third liner around that scores the deciding goal against you in the playoffs.

So if I am an Eastern team, I have 0 interest in helping the Pens out...

Plenty of other goalies available around the league.

I mean if Tampa does not pick up their play soon, Bishop might be available. So will be plenty others thanks to the expansion draft.

Why go for Fleury of all goalies?

 

[Drake1588]

MAF to buyout just before the expansion draft. Everyone knows that is the way this plays out.

All of the plausible scenarios fall apart when you contemplate Fleury's reaction.

Go wherever the Pens want you to go, or take your buyout money over four years, choose your destination from among the interested parties, and then double dip for the next few seasons. It's a no brainer. You force the buyout situation every time. There is no scenario that is better for Fleury than this.

 

[DaveG]

Better idea: Fleury for Lack and Hainsey. Get a depth D and a backup replacement.

I'd do that in a damn second.

 

[DaveG]

I think Carolina needs more of a longterm solution.

And with the expansion draft upcoming, the market for goalies probably is as bad as it ever will get.

Right now I can't see a team that would be desperate enough to help the Pens out by trading for Fleury who lets face it has not been a great rgoaltender in quite some time (especially not in the playoffs).

Pretty sure that the Pens wouldn't have won the Cup last season with Fleury in goal.

Also it will cost the Pens 1.9 M / year over the next 4 years of their capspace if they are forced to buyout Fleury.

That is not much but might be enough to prevent them from keeping that third liner around that scores the deciding goal against you in the playoffs.

So if I am an Eastern team, I have 0 interest in helping the Pens out...

Plenty of other goalies available around the league.

I mean if Tampa does not pick up their play soon, Bishop might be available. So will be plenty others thanks to the expansion draft.

Why go for Fleury of all goalies?

To put it plainly, it's also to get rid of Lack, he's been absolute dog **** ever since he got here. Fleury has an extra year beyond Lack left on his deal but that's not a dealbreaker for the Canes where they are. They won't be big spenders in UFA and it's going to be at least 2 more seasons before one of Ned/Booth/LaFontaine is ready for real NHL action. Ward-Fleury, while expensive, gives them a decent tandem for a while to use.

 

[KIRK]

MAF to buyout just before the expansion draft. Everyone knows that is the way this plays out.

All of the plausible scenarios fall apart when you contemplate Fleury's reaction.

Go wherever the Pens want you to go, or take your buyout money over four years, choose your destination from among the interested parties, and then double dip for the next few seasons. It's a no brainer. You force the buyout situation every time. There is no scenario that is better for Fleury than this.

I am almost certain that this is the advice Allan Walsh is giving him, and I believe Fleury is listening.

I also gather that, to the degree that he has entertained moving Fleury to date, JR has been trying to avoid retaining dollars or taking back a bad contract.

Given these two factors, there's no market for Fleury.

Now, Matt Murray is the starter. Any pretense of a competition or a 1A/1B scenario is done. Ergo, Fleury could potentially be traded IF:

(a) He decides he really wants to start the rest of this year and have a chance at the playoffs, because he maybe sees 8 games the rest of the way this year otherwise. Still not sure how likely that is, but egos can be funny things.

(b) Whether JR will be flexible on retaining or taking back money.

If there's some flexibility in these two areas, then I suspect Fleury could be moved. If not, then I concur . . . buyout.