LTIR Cap Exception

[devils26]

If a team puts a player on LTIR for 24 days and his contract says that he gets 10k per day, the team then gets 10k cap relief each day. However, if the team decides to replace only 5k of the injured player's salary per day, is the team still allowed to go over the upper limit by 240k at the end of the year? OR can the team only go over the upper limit by the amount of money that the injured player was replaced with while he was on LTIR?

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[kdb209]

If a team puts a player on LTIR for 24 days and his contract says that he gets 10k per day, the team then gets 10k cap relief each day. However, if the team decides to replace only 5k of the injured player's salary per day, is the team still allowed to go over the upper limit by 240k at the end of the year? OR can the team only go over the upper limit by the amount of money that the injured player was replaced with while he was on LTIR?

The latter - the LTIR players salary still counts, but the team can exceed the cap by up to the injured players salary while the player is unfit to play. Once the player returns, the team must get back below the cap before they can re-activate him, and there is no further cap releif.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I think I've clarified this in the CBA FAQ thread with a link to a past discussion, but I'll (God willing) put this to bed once and for all.

First off, players who are injured continue to count against the cap. The CBA mentions this in at least three places iIRC. Just because a player is injured doesn't mean he quits counting against the cap - even if he goes on LTIR. People keep saying, "Oh, ___ is on IR, so he doesn't count against the cap." WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! Article 50.10 even mentions this ... so when a player goes on IR (or even LTIR), the team doesn't gain any cap space. Period.

What they do get is the ability to add players up to the amount of the injured player while the injured player is on LTIR. So let's pick on Buffalo with a very simplistic (yet real) example: say they're at $43.95 million with a $44 million cap and Tim Connolly (with a cap number of $2.9 million) goes down injured in training camp and may miss a huge chunk of the season. The Sabres can place Connolly on LTIR, but they're still at $43.95 million wrt the cap. The move allows them to be able to call up players whose cap numbers add up to $2.9 million - the first $50,000 is what would get the Sabres to $44 million, and everything else is not counted when calculating the cap because Connolly's LTIR designation absorbs it. It's not just a flat, "Oh - Connolly's out? Woo-hoo, we have $2.9 million free!" situation.

To add to this: a player cannot be placed on LTIR unless the team thinks he'll miss at least 10 games and 24 days and the team has to be in a situation where adding a player would put them over. If the team is at $38 million and a guy making $3 million goes down, tough - they've got space to add guys, the injured player cannot be placed on LTIR. But let's suppose they're near the cap and can put the player on LTIR; then they're charged with whatever gets them to the Upper Limit before the LTIR exemption kicks in.

Now ... what if the Sabres wait until 45 days into a 180-day season before taking advantage of Connolly's LTIR status - can they take use of space they didn't eat up in the first 45 days? No - it's lost. Unlike the cap in normal situations where you can bank saved payroll space for later, there's nothing being saved here; remember, even without calling anyone up the Sabres are at $43.95 million with Connolly on LTIR. They can't save the $2.85 million they could have used for the trade deadline - if you don't take advantage of potential LTIR exemption space when it's available, you lose it.

And as kdb points out, to bring the injured player off LTIR they must clear enough cap space to have him on the active roster and not be over the Upper Limit.

 

[devils26]

Thank you for the explanation.

I just have one question remaining at that is if the Sabres are at $43.95 million, and they use Connolly's 2.9 million LTIR exemption, do they have $50,000 plus the 2.9 mil for Connolly for replacing, or just the 2.9 mil?

Also, I checked under your FAQ before posting but the link for issue 9, which is the LTIR, takes me to a page about Garth Snow and not a LTIR thread.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

They don't have the $50,000 plus $2.9 million. The first $50,000 they add is part of the $2.9 million they're trying to replace.

I'll find the post I was trying to link to and re-hook it in the next day or so.

 

[devils26]

They don't have the $50,000 plus $2.9 million. The first $50,000 they add is part of the $2.9 million they're trying to replace.

I'll find the post I was trying to link to and re-hook it in the next day or so.

Okay, thanks for having the patience to answer my questions.

By the way, and not to rush you at all, but do you know when the next update to the team cap page and player cap counts on your site will be?

I'm just anxious to see them because I love your site and the way it is set up. I really want to thank you for providing a big hockey fan with no access to those numbers a way to see cool stuff like that. Please keep up the great work.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I pushed updated cap and salary spreadsheets yesterday - the cap spreadsheet now includes buyouts. The laptop I usually work off of (and that has everything I use to edit the site) crashed out so I'm waiting for those CD's to come back from the movers - once I get those, I'll be able to make a full update. I haven't had an updated league file since March 6 so I can't add a whole lot (yet), but I'd say by Sunday everything should be updated completely based on what I do have.

 

[devils26]

I pushed updated cap and salary spreadsheets yesterday - the cap spreadsheet now includes buyouts. The laptop I usually work off of (and that has everything I use to edit the site) crashed out so I'm waiting for those CD's to come back from the movers - once I get those, I'll be able to make a full update. I haven't had an updated league file since March 6 so I can't add a whole lot (yet), but I'd say by Sunday everything should be updated completely based on what I do have.

Okay, thank you for the information and keep up the great work. Your site is excellent.

 

[Wetcoaster]

I think I've clarified this in the CBA FAQ thread with a link to a past discussion, but I'll (God willing) put this to bed once and for all.

First off, players who are injured continue to count against the cap. The CBA mentions this in at least three places If I recall correctly. Just because a player is injured doesn't mean he quits counting against the cap - even if he goes on LTIR. People keep saying, "Oh, ___ is on IR, so he doesn't count against the cap." WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! Article 50.10 even mentions this ... so when a player goes on IR (or even LTIR), the team doesn't gain any cap space. Period.

What they do get is the ability to add players up to the amount of the injured player while the injured player is on LTIR. So let's pick on Buffalo with a very simplistic (yet real) example: say they're at $43.95 million with a $44 million cap and Tim Connolly (with a cap number of $2.9 million) goes down injured in training camp and may miss a huge chunk of the season. The Sabres can place Connolly on LTIR, but they're still at $43.95 million wrt the cap. The move allows them to be able to call up players whose cap numbers add up to $2.9 million - the first $50,000 is what would get the Sabres to $44 million, and everything else is not counted when calculating the cap because Connolly's LTIR designation absorbs it. It's not just a flat, "Oh - Connolly's out? Woo-hoo, we have $2.9 million free!" situation.

To add to this: a player cannot be placed on LTIR unless the team thinks he'll miss at least 10 games and 24 days and the team has to be in a situation where adding a player would put them over. If the team is at $38 million and a guy making $3 million goes down, tough - they've got space to add guys, the injured player cannot be placed on LTIR. But let's suppose they're near the cap and can put the player on LTIR; then they're charged with whatever gets them to the Upper Limit before the LTIR exemption kicks in.

Now ... what if the Sabres wait until 45 days into a 180-day season before taking advantage of Connolly's LTIR status - can they take use of space they didn't eat up in the first 45 days? No - it's lost. Unlike the cap in normal situations where you can bank saved payroll space for later, there's nothing being saved here; remember, even without calling anyone up the Sabres are at $43.95 million with Connolly on LTIR. They can't save the $2.85 million they could have used for the trade deadline - if you don't take advantage of potential LTIR exemption space when it's available, you lose it.

And as kdb points out, to bring the injured player off LTIR they must clear enough cap space to have him on the active roster and not be over the Upper Limit.

I am getting tired of the media reporting how a player on LTIR does not count against the cap.

Have you considered making this post a general press release and sending it to all members of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Have you considered making this post a general press release and sending it to all members of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association?

I tried W.H. Smith's ....... they sent me here.

 

[fogducker]

I think I've clarified this in the CBA FAQ thread with a link to a past discussion, but I'll (God willing) put this to bed once and for all.

First off, players who are injured continue to count against the cap. The CBA mentions this in at least three places iIRC. Just because a player is injured doesn't mean he quits counting against the cap - even if he goes on LTIR. People keep saying, "Oh, ___ is on IR, so he doesn't count against the cap." WRONG, WRONG, WRONG! Article 50.10 even mentions this ... so when a player goes on IR (or even LTIR), the team doesn't gain any cap space. Period.

What they do get is the ability to add players up to the amount of the injured player while the injured player is on LTIR. So let's pick on Buffalo with a very simplistic (yet real) example: say they're at $43.95 million with a $44 million cap and Tim Connolly (with a cap number of $2.9 million) goes down injured in training camp and may miss a huge chunk of the season. The Sabres can place Connolly on LTIR, but they're still at $43.95 million wrt the cap. The move allows them to be able to call up players whose cap numbers add up to $2.9 million - the first $50,000 is what would get the Sabres to $44 million, and everything else is not counted when calculating the cap because Connolly's LTIR designation absorbs it. It's not just a flat, "Oh - Connolly's out? Woo-hoo, we have $2.9 million free!" situation.

To add to this: a player cannot be placed on LTIR unless the team thinks he'll miss at least 10 games and 24 days and the team has to be in a situation where adding a player would put them over. If the team is at $38 million and a guy making $3 million goes down, tough - they've got space to add guys, the injured player cannot be placed on LTIR. But let's suppose they're near the cap and can put the player on LTIR; then they're charged with whatever gets them to the Upper Limit before the LTIR exemption kicks in.

Now ... what if the Sabres wait until 45 days into a 180-day season before taking advantage of Connolly's LTIR status - can they take use of space they didn't eat up in the first 45 days? No - it's lost. Unlike the cap in normal situations where you can bank saved payroll space for later, there's nothing being saved here; remember, even without calling anyone up the Sabres are at $43.95 million with Connolly on LTIR. They can't save the $2.85 million they could have used for the trade deadline - if you don't take advantage of potential LTIR exemption space when it's available, you lose it.

And as kdb points out, to bring the injured player off LTIR they must clear enough cap space to have him on the active roster and not be over the Upper Limit.

one more question

so you're 1 million of the cap with a player injured in the begining of the season making 5 million. If you place him on LTIR near the trade deadline will they have the 4 million over the cap to spend with or is the contract pro-rated then applied which would leave the the team with less money to replace the player?

 

[Ted Hoffman]

If you read the answer to your question about how the cap is calculated, you should be able to figure out the answer to this question.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I tried W.H. Smith's ....... they sent me here.

Did they?

Funny, we've got a lot of books here.