Long before 1980, were the Americans better than many today might think?

[PrimumHockeyist]

1938 - "Chicago set a record with eight American players winning the Stanley Cup. "

My guess, since about 98 percent of the NHL was Canadian in 72: Chicago does not win in '38 without the US players being much better than people might think nowadays. In the more dominant narrative today, of course, the US begins getting 'good' after 1980.

Given what I just said about the NHL demographic from 1917 to 1980, I would imagine that it would be difficult to make such a case if 1938 is about all we have on that record. Is there a way around that? Or, any merit to this idea in general?

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[Michael Farkas]

Probably not...I'll come back and try to be better at this...but look at even the AHL in 1960 - there are two Americans in the whole league. Only one in the WHL. It's not like that's an anomaly season. That's the case for the seasons around that season too.

Where did Americans play? I don't know. Frankly, we don't want to know (just kidding, that's a mildly obscure Simpsons reference) - but it certainly wasn't the top three (to my knowledge) leagues in North America...

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

Probably not...I'll come back and try to be better at this...but look at even the AHL in 1960 - there are two Americans in the whole league. Only one in the WHL. It's not like that's an anomaly season. That's the case for the seasons around that season too.

Where did Americans play? I don't know. Frankly, we don't want to know (just kidding, that's a mildly obscure Simpsons reference) - but it certainly wasn't the top three (to my knowledge) leagues in North America...

Yes, it does seem like the AHL may be the only way we can hope to parse this.

 

[WarriorofTime]

For most of the 60s (O6), Tom Williams was the only American player in the League. He himself went to Canada and played minor pro for a couple years after his stint with the U.S. Olympic Team that won Gold in 1960. Most of the rest of the team never really attempted to play pro and either stopped playing or stayed amateurs and played with the U.S. National Team while doing whatever else they did.

Bear in mind the NHL teams directly sponsored Junior Hockey at this time so players that operated outside of this (i.e., Americans) weren't really on the radar as far as getting opportunities. Any minor pro leagues didn't pay particularly well so it wasn't something many were interested in exploring. This is likely why American players more or less went extinct in the post-war NHL. Whether this was efficient and if they were missing out on this era is hard to say. Expansion brought newfound opportunities and the Draft became the means to allocate talent. College players/Americans got some consideration here and there but still not a ton. For instance, in the 1970 draft, the first American player taken wasn't until the 5th round. The first college player taken was in the 2nd round.

The WHA, looking to fill its own talent base, really started to give more opportunities to college players. This had an effect on how the NHL scouted and looked at players as well, and both the NHL/WHA player base started to see an increase in College Players/Americans. It was still low by 1980, but there had been a significant grassroot growth in hockey in the U.S. throughout the 1970s. The increased potential professional opportunities likely played a role in this. There were already a fairbit of American NHL Players by 1979-80 (according to QuantHockey, 72 players constituting 11.0 % of players that appeared in the League and 9.9 % of Games Played) and obviously there had to be a decent grassroots in place already for a team of college players to be good enough to upset the Soviets (even in a fluke).

 

[carjackmalone]

1938 - "Chicago set a record with eight American players winning the Stanley Cup. "

My guess, since about 98 percent of the NHL was Canadian in 72: Chicago does not win in '38 without the US players being much better than people might think nowadays. In the more dominant narrative today, of course, the US begins getting 'good' after 1980.

Given what I just said about the NHL demographic from 1917 to 1980, I would imagine that it would be difficult to make such a case if 1938 is about all we have on that record. Is there a way around that? Or, any merit to this idea in general?

Wasn’t Great Britain winning Olympic gold around the same time?

 

[PrimumHockeyist]

Wasn’t Great Britain winning Olympic gold around the same time?

Yes, but I think it was with stacked Canadian expat rosters or some such thing. Kind of amazing that the game didn't catch on their imo.

 

[Theokritos]

There were quite a few rule differences between the NHL and the NCAA that had an impact on American players developing in the college system. Bodychecking was restricted to the defensive third from 1928 until the late 1950s or early 1960s, then to the defensive half. It was only in 1968 that it became legal up to the offensive blue line and only in 1972 it was allowed in the offensive zone. To avoid an icing call, college players only had to cross the defensive blue line, not the center red line. And the two-line pass remained legal under NCAA rules until the late 1960s or early 1970s.

Johnny MacMillan, a Canadian who went the NCAA route before ending up in the NHL (Toronto) in the early 60s, was quoted as saying: "I think my advancement to the NHL was set back to some extent by the fact I played college hockey. You'll find college players to be very good skaters, but they aren't aggressive enough for the pros. Our rules de-emphasize roughness, close checking and aggressiveness. You can skate hard all winter and never really get hit hard."

(All sourced from the excellent book "Hockey. A Global History" by Hardy & Holman.)

 

[seventieslord]

Probably not...I'll come back and try to be better at this...but look at even the AHL in 1960 - there are two Americans in the whole league. Only one in the WHL. It's not like that's an anomaly season. That's the case for the seasons around that season too.

Where did Americans play? I don't know. Frankly, we don't want to know (just kidding, that's a mildly obscure Simpsons reference) - but it certainly wasn't the top three (to my knowledge) leagues in North America...

This was followed by one of my top 5 Simpsons one liners ever.

"So that's it, after 20 years? So long, good luck?"

"I don't recall saying good luck"

 

[Crosby2010]

Yes, but I think it was with stacked Canadian expat rosters or some such thing. Kind of amazing that the game didn't catch on their imo.

I would suspect that the wet and dreary weather plays a factor. No snow, no outdoor ice rinks. Yeah I know there are places in the States where players are popping up from (Auston Matthews) that are warm climates with no outdoor ice, but all I am saying is who was an NHLer from Britain? Ken Hodge? Owen Nolan was born in Ireland. But I know Nolan was raised in Thorold, Ontario and Hodge was raised in the GTA. So I just don't know of a Britain-trained NHLer from there.

But onto the topic, I think the Americans took a long time to get some stars in the NHL, but they were always pretty pesky. Think the 1960 Olympics. Or even the Canada Cups. Why didn't Canada crush them when they had the chance? They never lost to them until 1996 of course but in 1976 they only won 4-2 and that was a Sittler empty netter to seal it. Canada had a 3-0 lead and probably sat back and coasted but the Americans chipped away and made it 3-2 and it was that score going into the 3rd period. This is probably the best roster of talent in hockey history on Canada. And this was a Bob Pulford coached team (how many knew that?) with the best player being Robbie Ftorek maybe? And they didn't do bad elsewhere. Losing 5-0 to the Soviets, but tying the Czechs too. I know there is usually a game great teams have in a tournament where it is closer than it should be but this was a pattern for the Americans in Canada Cups.

1981 Canada Cup: Beat the Swedes, beat the Czechs and while Canada beat them in the round robin game 8-3 keep in mind the score was 3-3 until midway through the 3rd period when Bossy scored. Sure Canada sobered up and came out on top but it took a while. Again, this is a stacked Canadian roster with Hall of Famers galore. But you can see an improvement in the Americans with Mark Howe, Rod Langway, Neal Broten, Dave Christian, Ftorek again. Tony Esposito was their goalie. I guess he just wanted to play in the tournament and knew Canada wouldn't ask him by then. USA lost to Canada in the semis 4-1 and while Canada was in control of the game 3-0 early it still wasn't an embarrassment for the U.S.

1984 Canada Cup the Americans tied Canada 4-4 in round robin play. They lost badly to the Swedes in the semis - 9-2 - but they were getting better.

1987 Lemieux/Gretzky Canadian team only beat the U.S. 3-2 thanks to Mario's hat trick and a game that Bob Johnson was livid with the refereeing afterwards. But the U.S. team I think if anything may have underachieved. They don't beat Canada or the Soviets, but I am surprised this roster couldn't make it to the semis. Mullen, Lafontaine, Chelios, Langway, Housley. Other good guys like Kevin Hatcher, Suter, Otto, Carpenter, Olczyk. In net you have Barrasso in the HHOF, then Beezer who is as close as you can get, and then Bob Mason who wasn't a great goalie but who just came off that crazy Game 7 overtime vs. the Islanders, something that I think helped Kelly Hrudey get onto Team Canada as well.

I think 1991 is when you officially say the U.S. had "arrived" and were ready to win the whole thing but I think there were earlier signs of it at least starting in 1987 that you could see they were a nation to be paid attention to. You could say the 1983 draft with 3 of the top 5 being American was a sign of things to come. So I think the Americans were better than people remember. Their problem is that they often don't have the superstars that other countries have produced. Their depth is better today obviously.

 

[Krigsgaldr]

lol I’m as proud an American as it comes .. but no .. we weren’t . We had some great players here and there but where hockey U.S.A. is now is worlds better than it has ever been .

 

[Staniowski]

No...there started to be a trickle of American talent in the 1970s, then some real talent in the 1980s, and continuous improvement through the '80s and into the '90s.

This is actually a very interesting topic, one that would make a great hockey book. The growth of hockey in the US has happened right before our eyes, but what are all the details?

Certainly infrastructure is a key, the building of indoor arenas, the start-up of minor hockey leagues, etc.

I think Bobby Orr led to the building of a lot of rinks in Massachusetts and elsewhere in New England, which gave us Langway, Carpenter, Barrasso, Roenick, Leetch, etc.

When did this happen in Minnesota?

 

[wetcoast]

No...there started to be a trickle of American talent in the 1970s, then some real talent in the 1980s, and continuous improvement through the '80s and into the '90s.

This is actually a very interesting topic, one that would make a great hockey book. The growth of hockey in the US has happened right before our eyes, but what are all the details?

Certainly infrastructure is a key, the building of indoor arenas, the start-up of minor hockey leagues, etc.

I think Bobby Orr led to the building of a lot of rinks in Massachusetts and elsewhere in New England, which gave us Langway, Carpenter, Barrasso, Roenick, Leetch, etc.

When did this happen in Minnesota?

Many things happened including NHL expansion, the WHA exposing hockey to new fans , free agency driving up salaries and a general upward trend in many places, not just the USA, of increasing talent streams making the NHL and hockey in general even better.