Lockout Looming (MOD: CBA negotiations status thread) - Part II

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KINGS17

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Apr 6, 2006
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As Fehr has pointed out, the players are not the only employees of the teams, although I'd grant that they are the single biggest group. That of course makes sense because the teams don't make any products, the players ARE the products in addition to being the employees.

I'm also tired of people throwing out that 18 teams are losing money bit.

That is an estimate from Forbes based on their own guesswork.

You will not find one source beyond that which illustrates which teams are losing money and how much. A few have 'leaked' alleged losses right ahead of the CBA talks. Riiiight.

This is a load of manure spread by Fehr as well. How many 18 year olds show up as a finished product, ready to play in the NHL? Not many.

Player development takes time and money and the owners invest plenty of money in the people and infrastructure that make it happen.

So you don't buy that 18 teams lost money last season? How many do YOU think lost money and what is your basis for that estimate? Not that it really matters.
 

Holden Caulfield

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Feb 15, 2006
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Well, let's be fair. In the world of professional sports one of the primary reasons to have CBAs is to protect the owners from themselves. Without a CBA to put limits on stupid owners and GMs the player salaries would be driven to unsustainable levels and you get what you had prior to the last lockout.

Yet that didn't happen pre union or pre CBA. The BULK of the players have no desire to see the end of a CBA altogether, it would just end up with Sidney Crosby making 25 million per year while Craig Adams (random 4th liner pulled from PIT) is making 85K per year.
 

Gm0ney

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Can you ask the same question of the owners, who not only want to hold on to the money they have right now, but want 24% more.

Hey, I've asked the NHLPA henchmen on here a number of times, why is a 57%-43% split fair if it's in the players' favour but 50-50 isn't? What are the players risking that entitles them to $462,000,000 more than the owners each year? Their health? Lots of guys are happy doing the exact same thing in the AHL for $60,000/year.
 

Sanderson

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That's simply not true.
There is nothing "Draconian" about the players reducing the HRR from 57 to 52

Only they didn't offer that.
The players don't offer any financial help right now, want increases for the next few years regardless of how much revenue is coming in, and then jump right back to the 57% they have right now.

In short, they don't want to give up any money right now, won't give up any in the near future because of the build-in increases and then really want to cash in with the last year of their offer. There is absolutely nothing that helps teams right now. It's a "hope the small teams can catch up before salaries will explode" approach, which doesn't help anyone, not even the players. I have never seen such a bunch of short-sighted people before. They screwed up in the last lockout when it was very obvious that the deal they could get was anything but bad for them, and now they want to rake in money while sharing absolutely none of the risks, at a time where some teams are in a bit of trouble keeping up.

Of course they shouldn't just roll over, that wouldn't make any sense and weaken the league as well, but what they are offering is in no way, shape or form helpful. The first offer the owner made may have been extremely harsh, but that's nothing compared to the players basically offering the same useless offer three times in a row. It's one thing to start with your dream result, it's something entirely different to offer the same garbage again and again and again.
 

KINGS17

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Yet that didn't happen pre union or pre CBA. The BULK of the players have no desire to see the end of a CBA altogether, it would just end up with Sidney Crosby making 25 million per year while Craig Adams (random 4th liner pulled from PIT) is making 85K per year.

Yup, can't disagree with that.
 

bluesfan94

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Please show me a link other than Forbes for the teams that lost money and how much.

If the NHLPA knows that this number is being tossed around, and is the only number out there, and yet received a different number from the NHL, why wouldn't the NHLPA/Donald Fehr correct it? Just logically. The fact that there is but one source out there on this, and the NHLPA hasn't discredited it would logically mean it's either true, or worse than Forbes predicts.
 

SJeasy

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Feb 3, 2005
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Are they? Why do they have a union then?
To set a marketplace in a closed system. It was a closed system before the cap. My take is that Fugu is saying that there is sufficient rev in the system such that there would be teams spending over $100mil on payrolls while some teams would be at or below their current spending levels if not for the cap. The highly paid players would gravitate to the wealthier teams with a few of them on islands as the headliners on lesser teams.

For others,
Fugu's rant on "partners" was regarding the dis-ingenuity of the league in using the term after the last CBA. The players are not being treated as partners. Major sarcasm.

Just a note about the unwillingness of TO, etc. not wanting to share being an ethical position. A little two-faced as they and a couple of other teams reaped a huge windfall from the last CBA at the expense of the lesser teams. There needs to be giveback. Taking the point to the legal arena to homelending, the lenders are now being held accountable in court for their windfall originating loans where the borrowers had no reasonable expectation of repaying them. Essentially, the high earners of the current system have the weight of ethics against them in terms of sharing.
 

Apoplectic Habs Fan

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thats right. look at columbus. How is their scouting? How is their player development? When is the last time they made the playoffs? So would you say they need to spend more than they are?

not saying how they spent is right or wrong. Just what he said was the expenses when he was GM.

as for your questions. You can look at it from two ways. Maybe they need to spend more because they are cheaping out on these aspects and thats why no results, or you can say they should cut back because they arent doing the job.
 

Ari91

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As Fehr has pointed out, the players are not the only employees of the teams, although I'd grant that they are the single biggest group. That of course makes sense because the teams don't make any products, the players ARE the products in addition to being the employees.

I'm also tired of people throwing out that 18 teams are losing money bit.

That is an estimate from Forbes based on their own guesswork.

You will not find one source beyond that which illustrates which teams are losing money and how much. A few have 'leaked' alleged losses right ahead of the CBA talks. Riiiight.




Yet the player share remained constant. The avg growth has been greater than 7% for ten years.


The players never wanted to frame their share in terms of percentage of revenues. That is the league's demand. Let's keep that straight please. It's the NHL strong arm tactics that has forced everyone to speak in terms of what the players "deserve"-- not the players.

Did you get that from Fehr? Have you bothered to check how much of this average is affected by significant events like TV deals, relocation, currency exchange, etc? The league doesn't sign TV deals every year. The league does not receive expansion or relocation fees every year. It's naive (or sneaky) to promote an idea of an average annual growth when you factor in unreliable revenue that stems from internal factors within the league. The most reliable reader of growth is looking at gate receipts, merchandise sales, etc. Take out those things and you get a better sense of the growth of the league and I doubt it's 7.1%.
 

NinthSpoke06

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Honestly, is there anyone who has a reasonable argument on why the players "deserve" to take home more of the hockey related revenues than the owners? That is where we now and the players believe their share shouldn't fall below 52%.

I would just like an honest argument why that should be the case. Not trying to troll or bait anyone. Just trying to hear the other side of the story.
 

Grudy0

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If the NHLPA knows that this number is being tossed around, and is the only number out there, and yet received a different number from the NHL, why wouldn't the NHLPA/Donald Fehr correct it? Just logically. The fact that there is but one source out there on this, and the NHLPA hasn't discredited it would logically mean it's either true, or worse than Forbes predicts.
1) the number is being tossed around by Forbes, and they've stated it is their estimates

2) the NHLPA, now that they've received all the audited financials, are barred from correcting anyone. They must have a non-disclosure contract in order to see the financials.
 

JohnnyReb

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If the NHLPA knows that this number is being tossed around, and is the only number out there, and yet received a different number from the NHL, why wouldn't the NHLPA/Donald Fehr correct it? Just logically. The fact that there is but one source out there on this, and the NHLPA hasn't discredited it would logically mean it's either true, or worse than Forbes predicts.

I'm not a legal expert in this domain, but I would suspect that if any business was to hand over their entire financial record they would want some pretty harsh non-disclosure clauses put in.

Besides, has the NHL ever said that teams were losing money, or how many? All I can find is Gary Bettman saying that they believe they are paying the players too much. If he says "18 teams are losing money" then of course the NHLPA would have an opening to hammer him. But if all he says is "some teams are losing money" how are they going to hammer him? Everyone knows that some teams are losing money, I don't need 76,000 pages of documents to guess that. What would be the magic number that would make this a worthwhile bullet for Fehr to fire? "Only seven teams are losing money? Only ten teams are losing money? Only 14 teams, less than half, are losing money?"

Its not really an argument that Fehr can counter, since the NHL has never made it.
 

bluesfan94

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1) the number is being tossed around by Forbes, and they've stated it is their estimates

2) the NHLPA, now that they've received all the audited financials, are barred from correcting anyone. They must have a non-disclosure contract in order to see the financials.

Nevermind, JohnnyReb did a good job explaining this to me
 

JohnnyReb

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Honestly, is there anyone who has a reasonable argument on why the players "deserve" to take home more of the hockey related revenues than the owners? That is where we now and the players believe their share shouldn't fall below 52%.

I would just like an honest argument why that should be the case. Not trying to troll or bait anyone. Just trying to hear the other side of the story.

I'll just quote myself from the other thread:

I don't think the players think that they "deserve more than the other leagues." I think it's a question of the players getting what they think is "fair", and that the 57% is really just a number that people are too hung up on. I think that there is still a great deal of mistrust on the player's side, and that they really don't think that the owners are as in bad a shape as they claim to be. Heck, as recently as May Gary Bettman was boasting about how great revenues were and how high attendance was and how fantastic the new TV deals were going to be. Check out the quotes from Bettman that Alan Walsh keeps tweeting, about how the "new partnership with the players" was so great for everyone.

Then consider all the recent signings, including Marchand and Seguin's signings this week. Or of course Minnesota's big splash, or Philadelphia or, or, or. Actions, as they say, speak louder than words. If the money was not there, then they would not be spending it. Right?

Now go back in history. By all accounts (at least at the time and up until, oh about three weeks ago) everyone said the players got hammered in the last lockout. They were humiliated and embarrassed and they ate their own right after, so disgusted were they with their own performance in the whole matter. Now people are saying they need to "give again". They must be thinking "weren't we humiliated enough?" Whether you NOW think that is true or not for the last seven years that has been the general perception.

Now keep going back. Remember the Levitt report and it's, ummm, "creative" accounting? Remember the Blackhawks saying that they were still losing money? Or the Habs claiming they were losing money? "Huge losses" is how George Gillett once put it. How much money did Gillett make when he sold the team? How about Paul Beeston's famous quote? "I can turn a $4 million profit into a $2 million loss and get every national accounting firm to agree with me." How about Alan Eagleson?

Now whether any, all, or none of those things are true is largely irrelevant. The players don't trust the owners. They don't trust their numbers (why would Fehr ask for them if they already had them all?), they don't trust the process. 57% is a meaningless number to them, as is 50%, as is 43%. Because it doesn't say what it is 57/50/43 percent of. The infamous HRR. 50% of HRR sounds like a good deal, but what if it doesn't include ticket sales, beer sales, playoff money, or TV contracts? Not so good, right? Extreme example, but you get the point. If they say "50%" as a player I would immediately want to know "of what?" As Bob Mackenzie said the owners want the players to take a smaller piece of a smaller pie. That's important, because without knowing how big the pie is the actual percentage is meaningless. How does the definition of hockey's "57% of HRR" compare to basketball's "50% of BRR?" The devil is in the details.

The players don't feel that they "deserve" 57%. They feel that they "deserve" a fair share, and that by their words and actions the owners can pay them more than what they are now offering. If you worked for a company that boasted about how great the company was doing, to the press and to it's shareholders, but then came back to you at your annual salary review and said "sorry, you need to take a pay cut because there is no money" wouldn't you be suspicious?
 

KingsFan7824

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That of course makes sense because the teams don't make any products, the players ARE the products in addition to being the employees.

The players are paid to advertise the product. The product is the logo of the NHL or team that the player signed with. That's what gets put on the mugs and hats and whatever else. The players last name goes on the product. How many jerseys get sold with no logo, but a name on the back?

Now, those same jerseys wouldn't be nearly as wanted if the players didn't do what they did in them. That's why they get paid a ton to do that.
 

Grudy0

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Did you get that from Fehr? Have you bothered to check how much of this average is affected by significant events like TV deals, relocation, currency exchange, etc? The league doesn't sign TV deals every year. The league does not receive expansion or relocation fees every year. It's naive (or sneaky) to promote an idea of an average annual growth when you factor in unreliable revenue that stems from internal factors within the league. The most reliable reader of growth is looking at gate receipts, merchandise sales, etc. Take out those things and you get a better sense of the growth of the league and I doubt it's 7.1%.
Wow.

So if gate receipts increase 5 percent annually, that attributes for more than half the growth. And sponsorships are another. Tack on things like the extra $9 million a year the Kings will get in TV revenue, and you start to get a better picture.

One-time transactions aren't the only factor. Far from it. And expansion or relocation fees don't count towards HRR.
 

Ari91

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Please show me a link other than Forbes for the teams that lost money and how much.

Why he is obligated to provide particular sources and you aren't?

He made a statement that 18 teams lost money. Fair enough, he should provide sources for such a statement.

You vehemently stated that 18 teams losing money is not true. You are equally obligated to provide your own sources. So where are they?

If you don't believe the Forbes list to be true, then say so and argue the validity of the source. Don't project your own opinions of the source as though your opinions are correct when you have no source to back up your claim either.
 

bluesfan94

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I'm not a legal expert in this domain, but I would suspect that if any business was to hand over their entire financial record they would want some pretty harsh non-disclosure clauses put in.

Besides, has the NHL ever said that teams were losing money, or how many? All I can find is Gary Bettman saying that they believe they are paying the players too much. If he says "18 teams are losing money" then of course the NHLPA would have an opening to hammer him. But if all he says is "some teams are losing money" how are they going to hammer him? Everyone knows that some teams are losing money, I don't need 76,000 pages of documents to guess that. What would be the magic number that would make this a worthwhile bullet for Fehr to fire? "Only seven teams are losing money? Only ten teams are losing money? Only 14 teams, less than half, are losing money?"

Its not really an argument that Fehr can counter, since the NHL has never made it.

Fair enough, but if only one source exists, it's unfair to discredit it by saying that they're estimates and thus shouldn't count. There's no other number that exists, so we have to operate on the information we have. It's infuriating that people think they can just nullify numbers that don't fit in their argument.
 

Grudy0

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Grudy0 said:
2) the NHLPA, now that they've received all the audited financials, are barred from correcting anyone. They must have a non-disclosure contract in order to see the financials.

It's standard business practice. You never show your financials to anyone without a non-disclosure agreement. Want to sell a team? The prospective buyer has a non-disclosure agreement they must sign. They don't want confidential information shared with anyone.
 

Fugu

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Why he is obligated to provide particular sources and you aren't?

He made a statement that 18 teams lost money. Fair enough, he should provide sources for such a statement.

You vehemently stated that 18 teams losing money is not true. You are equally obligated to provide your own sources. So where are they?

If you don't believe the Forbes list to be true, then say so and argue the validity of the source. Don't project your own opinions of the source as though your opinions are correct when you have no source to back up your claim either.

I know his source. It's Forbes. Go to the sticky thread on Business Data Sources and find the links there. Unless you or anyone else has a different source, we're done. Comment qualified sufficiently for you?
:laugh:
 

bluesfan94

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It's standard business practice. You never show your financials to anyone without a non-disclosure agreement. Want to sell a team? The prospective buyer has a non-disclosure agreement they must sign. They don't want confidential information shared with anyone.

I'm guessing it depends on the the NDA, but could the NHLPA say something like, "We don't believe nearly as many teams have lost money as has been claimed."?
 

Grudy0

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If you don't believe the Forbes list to be true, then say so and argue the validity of the source. Don't project your own opinions of the source as though your opinions are correct when you have no source to back up your claim either.
"18 teams lost money last year"

Source?

Forbes.

They're estimates.

That's all we have to go on.

So everyone parroting that 18 teams lost money last year can just stop. It's only a guess that 18 teams lost money last year.

And again, one owner that's been a severe money loser for the past two years says the estimates are not correct. But of course, he also never opened up his audited books to dispute them.
 

Fugu

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Fair enough, but if only one source exists, it's unfair to discredit it by saying that they're estimates and thus shouldn't count. There's no other number that exists, so we have to operate on the information we have. It's infuriating that people think they can just nullify numbers that don't fit in their argument.


It's unfair to discredit a source as factual that has never based the estimate on real NHL figures? Really?


The absence of these figures in no way should obligate us to use invalid figures. Sorry, this has nothing to do with anything fitting my argument, but actually expecting people to be able to back up claims they made.
 

Melrose Munch

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Why he is obligated to provide particular sources and you aren't?

He made a statement that 18 teams lost money. Fair enough, he should provide sources for such a statement.

You vehemently stated that 18 teams losing money is not true. You are equally obligated to provide your own sources. So where are they?

If you don't believe the Forbes list to be true, then say so and argue the validity of the source. Don't project your own opinions of the source as though your opinions are correct when you have no source to back up your claim either.

So we're using this line of attack now? Forbes is not taken seriously by some because they do not have access to the books of any team. Not even Phoenix.

That does not mean I agree but its a vaild point to have since forbes is just guessing.
 

Honeycutt

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How are you figures any more accurate than Forbes? You can not say 18 teams did not lose money.
 
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