Lindros versus Crosby

[marvel]

The answer to "who helps a team more to win?" doesn't say anything about a player. If a team has a lack of size and grit then sure Lindros will help more than Gretzky. If it lacks Offense Gretzky would help more. So this is depending on the team's needs!

"Who would win "one on one"?" is a good point. But this gives you only an answer in technical ways. The faster skater, the more skilled player would surely win this. But would he also be the better plyer in a tough game where hitting and power can stop the most skilled team?

I don't think you can say this player or that player is better than the other. It always depends on several things. Statistically Gretzky is the best o all times. But that doesn't mean nobody ever was as good as him. Lemieux sure was, Orr maybe was. But in a tough game I wouldn't wanna play against Lindros either...

 

[helicecopter]

The answer to "who helps a team more to win?" doesn't say anything about a player. If a team has a lack of size and grit then sure Lindros will help more than Gretzky. If it lacks Offense Gretzky would help more. So this is depending on the team's needs!

Take Gretzky, THEN address your team's lacks acquiring gritty players..

anyway, it's meant a generic, normal team.

and drafting out of team's needs is always dumb, especially when talking about top prospects.

 

[thomasincanada]

The answer to "who helps a team more to win?" doesn't say anything about a player. If a team has a lack of size and grit then sure Lindros will help more than Gretzky. If it lacks Offense Gretzky would help more. So this is depending on the team's needs!

"Who would win "one on one"?" is a good point. But this gives you only an answer in technical ways. The faster skater, the more skilled player would surely win this. But would he also be the better plyer in a tough game where hitting and power can stop the most skilled team?

I don't think you can say this player or that player is better than the other. It always depends on several things. Statistically Gretzky is the best o all times. But that doesn't mean nobody ever was as good as him. Lemieux sure was, Orr maybe was. But in a tough game I wouldn't wanna play against Lindros either...

I think the best way to measure greatness is how much the team improves by getting a player.

I also don't think there is any team, even if it lacks size and toughness that would have benefitted from Lindros as much as The Great One. Lindros was far behind Gretzky in terms of making a team play great, so much so that I don't think any toughness that he brought could make up for that.

I definately wouldn't say Lemieux was as good as Gretzky - Gretzky made everyone around him great, and that's something I don't think Lemieux ever did as well - despite his fantastic scoring. Orr is another story - and I didn't see him enough to argue one way or the other.


Tom

 

[marvel]

and drafting out of team's needs is always dumb, especially when talking about top prospects

I would say this is dumb! If you can get Crosby you take him, but any other pick is better used from team's needs! Anything else doesn't make sense...

 

[marvel]

I also don't think there is any team, even if it lacks size and toughness that would have benefitted from Lindros as much as The Great One.

Just theory, but imagine a team with many great players like Sakic, Kariya, Bure, Mogilny....but nobody who makes room for them on the ice. Then you don't pick a player like Gretzky or Crosby, you pick a player like Lindros. Or you take Gretzky and trade Sakic for a power forward.

Talking bout Lindros... he did make his linemates better. Look at LeClair and Renberg. They were nothing without Lindros...But Lindros makes his linemates better in a different way than Gretky. Gretzky puts his limemates in Position, feeds them with passes, Lindros makes room on the ice for his linemates and taks the body!

 

[Sammy*]

It just struck me. Do those who minimize how unbelievable Lindros was, because of his soft melon/durability issues hold those same general views when it comes to someone like Bobby Orr?

 

[marvel]

It just struck me. Do those who minimize how unbelievable Lindros was, because of his soft melon/durability issues hold those same general views when it comes to someone like Bobby Orr?

Propably not! Orr just had weak knees...as Mario has his weak back and weak hips!

 

[Sammy*]

I I also don't think there is any team, even if it lacks size and toughness that would have benefitted from Lindros as much as The Great One. Lindros was far behind Gretzky in terms of making a team play great, so much so that I don't think any toughness that he brought could make up for that.
I definately wouldn't say Lemieux was as good as Gretzky - Gretzky made everyone around him great, and that's something I don't think Lemieux ever did as well - despite his fantastic scoring. Orr is another story - and I didn't see him enough to argue one way or the other.
Tom

I hear what you are saying but its pretty easy to say that about Gretzky when he is surrounded by about 6 H of F'rs & another couple who are pretty close.
Melonhead nor Lemieux never had such luxury.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I think the best way to measure greatness is how much the team improves by getting a player.

I also don't think there is any team, even if it lacks size and toughness that would have benefitted from Lindros as much as The Great One. Lindros was far behind Gretzky in terms of making a team play great, so much so that I don't think any toughness that he brought could make up for that.

I definately wouldn't say Lemieux was as good as Gretzky - Gretzky made everyone around him great, and that's something I don't think Lemieux ever did as well - despite his fantastic scoring. Orr is another story - and I didn't see him enough to argue one way or the other.


Tom

Lemieux always made the players he played with much better. Rob Brown scored 115 pts with him. Sandstrom became a hell of a player when playing with Lemieux. Anybody in the league could have had an all star season playing on the same line with Mario. He was hardly just an individual talent. Don't forget he has had a 114 assist season before.

 

[thomasincanada]

Lemieux always made the players he played with much better. Rob Brown scored 115 pts with him. Sandstrom became a hell of a player when playing with Lemieux. Anybody in the league could have had an all star season playing on the same line with Mario. He was hardly just an individual talent. Don't forget he has had a 114 assist season before.

He *did* make the players around him better, I just said he didn't do it as well as Wayne, that's all.

Not an individual player by any means. This is a guy I consider to be probably the second best player in the last 25 or more years.

Tom

 

[Epsilon]

Funnily, I would say Lindros' skills are being greatly underrated in this thread, while his defensive play and leadership are what's being overrated. He was never very good defensively and he was a poor leader, but his offensive instincts were always top notch. People are making it sound like he's Bob Gainey or something which is selling him sort bigtime in one way while totally exagerrating him in another way.

 

[marvel]

While I agree with you Lindros beeing underrated offensivly, I totally disagree with you Lindros beeing not good defensivley! A player who is that good in +/- cannot be bad defensivley. I know that is no indicator for defense and he scored a lot, but even a high scoring player isn't that good in +/- without backchecking, forechecking and positioning. He wasn't a second Jere Lehtinen, but he sure was good in defense. And his leadership sure was underrated too. Do you really think they let Lindros captain team Canada while there are players like Wayne Gretzky, Steve Yzerman, Joe Nieuwendyk, Joe Sakic, Paul Kariya, Trevor Linden and Keith Primeau (all respected captains in the NHL) in the team, if he has no leadership? Really funny! LIndros sure was no second mark Messier, but he had good leadership...otherwise he hasn't been the captain of the Flyers either!

 

[Gags1288]

While I agree with you Lindros beeing underrated offensivly, I totally disagree with you Lindros beeing not good defensivley! A player who is that good in +/- cannot be bad defensivley. I know that is no indicator for defense and he scored a lot, but even a high scoring player isn't that good in +/- without backchecking, forechecking and positioning. He wasn't a second Jere Lehtinen, but he sure was good in defense. And his leadership sure was underrated too. Do you really think they let Lindros captain team Canada while there are players like Wayne Gretzky, Steve Yzerman, Joe Nieuwendyk, Joe Sakic, Paul Kariya, Trevor Linden and Keith Primeau (all respected captains in the NHL) in the team, if he has no leadership? Really funny! LIndros sure was no second mark Messier, but he had good leadership...otherwise he hasn't been the captain of the Flyers either!

Eric Lindros is my favorite player of all time, but he was not captain of that team because he was the best leader. He was captain of the team because Clarke wanted to help him become a better leader. As far as being the Flyers captain, that was a case of him simply being by far the flyers best player. Kinda like Jagr being the captain of the Penguins even though he doesn't have very good leadership abilities.

As for the prospect debate, I'd take Lindros. At the time he came in, he was physically able to dominate the NHL, he was that strong. He had a great arsenal of shots, the best backhand in the league (imo), and as someone mentioned, he had an incredible ability to make those around him better. Let's not minimize the career of Eric because many don't remember his early years. This is the guy that took a run of the mill 20 goal scorer in John Leclair and turned him into a consistant 50 goal guy. I think Eric's the best player ever to wear a flyers jersey and that says a lot.

 

[marvel]

Eric Lindros is my favorite player of all time, but he was not captain of that team because he was the best leader. He was captain of the team because Clarke wanted to help him become a better leader. As far as being the Flyers captain, that was a case of him simply being by far the flyers best player.

Ah, OK! And that`s why he was captain of team Canada, too... right? I don't say Lindros was the greatest captain ever, but sure the Canadians wouldn't have made him captian of team Canada if he wasn't a good leader...not with that many resepected NHL captains in the team! Wouldn't make sense at all...

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

Funnily, I would say Lindros' skills are being greatly underrated in this thread, while his defensive play and leadership are what's being overrated. He was never very good defensively and he was a poor leader, but his offensive instincts were always top notch. People are making it sound like he's Bob Gainey or something which is selling him sort bigtime in one way while totally exagerrating him in another way.

What he said.

Even if Big E had been a wuss, with the kind of pure skills he was displaying, he would have been damn scary.

Just on a pure offense standpoint, this guy was a very good NHLer. The rest of the stuff is what elevates him but he owes his NHL performance primarily to being a damn skilled player.

I would agree he wasn't that good defensively. But grit, size and mobility allowed him to get by in that respect, IMO. I definitly agree on the leadership. I wouldn't list this as an asset for Lindros. That's stretching it.

 

[Pepper]

I don't think Crosby has shown any more leadership or defensive play than Lindros did at his age.

 

[Jamie]

I ask this question, if Crosby has a career similar to Lindros', is that a good thing, or a dissapointment? Lindros was slowed down by the concussions, so it doesn't nessasarily have to be that that slows Crosby down, but something that slows down to a similar extent of Lindros...

I must say, that's one of the sloppiest looking paragraphs I've ever written... I hope it makes sense.

 

[Epsilon]

Ah, OK! And that`s why he was captain of team Canada, too... right? I don't say Lindros was the greatest captain ever, but sure the Canadians wouldn't have made him captian of team Canada if he wasn't a good leader...not with that many resepected NHL captains in the team! Wouldn't make sense at all...

Once again, Lindros was the captain for the 1998 Olympic team because Clarke wanted him to be, not because he was best suited for the role. Not to mention there was a lot of speculation that some players (i.e. Messier) were left off specifically because they were strong leaders, and Clarke thought this would interfere with Lindros being "the guy". The fact that he led that team to a non-medal finish is one of the signs that he wasn't all that great as a leader.

 

[Pepper]

I ask this question, if Crosby has a career similar to Lindros', is that a good thing, or a dissapointment? Lindros was slowed down by the concussions, so it doesn't nessasarily have to be that that slows Crosby down, but something that slows down to a similar extent of Lindros...

I must say, that's one of the sloppiest looking paragraphs I've ever written... I hope it makes sense.

If Crosby can achieve even half of what Lindros did, he can be very happy.

 

[Epsilon]

If Crosby can achieve even half of what Lindros did, he can be very happy.

Achieving half of what Lindros did is not particularly impressive.

 

[marvel]

Once again, Lindros was the captain for the 1998 Olympic team because Clarke wanted him to be, not because he was best suited for the role. Not to mention there was a lot of speculation that some players (i.e. Messier) were left off specifically because they were strong leaders, and Clarke thought this would interfere with Lindros being "the guy". The fact that he led that team to a non-medal finish is one of the signs that he wasn't all that great as a leader.

Once again, Lindros was never a great leader! But Lindros had good leadership. Sorry if you don't get the difference...

And no, Lindros wasn't captain of team canada because Clarke wanted him to be! That's ridiculous! They don't make a player without leadership captain just because CLarke wants it that way. Maybe Clarke wanted it, but even CLarke is not that stupid to make a player without leadership captain. And to blame Lindros for team Canada not winning a medal is even more ridiculous than to blame Lindros for the Flyers not winning a Stanley Cup! I guess you musst be the greatest Lindros hater on earth to say such stupid things...

Lindros sure was not the best player for the captain role, but that doesn't mean he dad no leadership...get it?

Achieving half of what Lindros did is not particularly impressive.

No, not half of what he did was impressive. 80 % of what he did was imperssive...

 

[helicecopter]

I would say this is dumb! If you can get Crosby you take him, but any other pick is better used from team's needs! Anything else doesn't make sense...

We really DISAGREE here!

 

[marvel]

We really DISAGREE here!

That's obvious! But that doesn't mean you're right...

 

[pei fan]

Once again, Lindros was the captain for the 1998 Olympic team because Clarke wanted him to be, not because he was best suited for the role. Not to mention there was a lot of speculation that some players (i.e. Messier) were left off specifically because they were strong leaders, and Clarke thought this would interfere with Lindros being "the guy". The fact that he led that team to a non-medal finish is one of the signs that he wasn't all that great as a leader.

You are absolutely right about this Epsilon.In addition there was a lot of speculation that the players on the team were not happy with the choice.I will say he was
probably the dominant player in the world at that time but definetly not considered
the natural captain of team Canada.

 

[marvel]

I will say he was probably the dominant player in the world at that time but definetly not considered
the natural captain of team Canada.

Yeah, right! Never said anything else. He never was the greatest leader on earth, just a good leader.... There were many players in the team that were better captains, but still Lindros was the captain of team Canada, nobody else. And nobody makes a player without leadership captain of a team. Maybe one day you'll understand that!