Player Discussion Linden vs Naslund

[vadim sharifijanov]

Drance vs Brough: Who's the better Canucks - Naslund or Linden?

i feel like every single person who listens to this would get riled up listening to this, whichever guy they prefer.

i LOLed twice

Click to read more...

 

[Hit the post]

Linden had to play an unnatural position in the NHL for much of his career (center,) that has to be taken into consideration when evaluating the two players.

 

[deckercky]

Naslund is by and far clearly the better player, but Linden is core to the image of being a Canuck.

On the dispute on the radio, naslund was the right vote.

 

[MS]

Naslund was a 'better player' who was better at scoring points in the regular season, but was soft as butter and mentally weak and in a playoff game I'd rather have 1 Linden than 2 Naslunds.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Naslund was a 'better player' who was better at scoring points in the regular season, but was soft as butter and mentally weak and in a playoff game I'd rather have 1 Linden than 2 Naslunds.

don't forget horrendous defensively

 

[vancityluongo]

Naslund was a superstar who just couldn't get it done in key moments (small sample sizes), Linden was an overglorified grinder who had some big moments. From the player perspective, it isn't even close.

The WCE era was my first experience as a fan, so to me, Canucks hockey is about high skill, high octane offenses.

I sort of get the Linden nostalgia, but also don't. Like, if Kevin Bieksa was the captain of the 2009-2014 era, leading to the same result... I wouldn't think of him as a better Canuck than the first three seasons of Elias Pettersson (obviously projecting for next year).

There's not that much difference IMO between greatest Canucks and best player when both players had their peak and prime with this team. Otherwise, Messier and Sundin are in our "best" players lists. Otherwise guys like Rick Rypien and Gino Odjick are in our "greatest" players lists.

When assessing guys like Linden and Naslund, I'm valuing how good they were at hockey; narratives around "clutchness" or whatever are kinda secondary.

YMMV!!

 

[MS]

don't forget horrendous defensively

Pre-2004 he made an effort and wasn't that bad for a top skill player.

2005-2008 Naslund was a black hole. I'm probably harsher to him than I should be because those 3 years left such a terrible taste in my mouth.

 

[PavelBure10]

Linden forsure. Although Naslund is a natural scorer, and a better skill player than Linden. It was Linden who would take his game to the next level in the playoffs. #16 was the one who scored the only two Canuck goals in the 94 game 7 Stanley Cup finals versus the Rangers. He almost won it himself. Love both, but Linden was the better leader aswell.

 

[RobertKron]

Pre-2004 he made an effort and wasn't that bad for a top skill player.

2005-2008 Naslund was a black hole. I'm probably harsher to him than I should be because those 3 years left such a terrible taste in my mouth.

Honestly, I think that the Moore incident and everything that came out of it really broke Naslund as a player. After that he just looked tired and defeated.

 

[82Ninety42011]

Linden was the heart and Nazzy the skill two very different players really.

 

[MS]

Honestly, I think that the Moore incident and everything that came out of it really broke Naslund as a player. After that he just looked tired and defeated.

Oh, absolutely.

There were rumblings he was done with the NHL and wanted to retire during the 04-05 lockout, and then he found $18 million reasons to come back for 3 more years. And spent those entire 3 years as a lazy perimeter player with the body language of someone whose dog had just died.

 

[RobertKron]

Oh, absolutely.

There were rumblings he was done with the NHL and wanted to retire during the 04-05 lockout, and then he found $18 million reasons to come back for 3 more years. And spent those entire 3 years as a lazy perimeter player with the body language of someone whose dog had just died.

I guess I give him the benefit of the doubt that he didn't realize how much it impacted him and thought he'd bounce back.

It's kind of a funny situation, because I think that he spent part of his career unfairly dogged by the whole "you can't win with a soft gutless euro captain with no heart" schtick, and then probably maintained more of a positive reputation than he deserved during his post-Moore career due to what he was before.

 

[Diversification]

Naslund was a superstar who just couldn't get it done in key moments (small sample sizes), Linden was an overglorified grinder who had some big moments. From the player perspective, it isn't even close.

The WCE era was my first experience as a fan, so to me, Canucks hockey is about high skill, high octane offenses.

I sort of get the Linden nostalgia, but also don't. Like, if Kevin Bieksa was the captain of the 2009-2014 era, leading to the same result... I wouldn't think of him as a better Canuck than the first three seasons of Elias Pettersson (obviously projecting for next year).

There's not that much difference IMO between greatest Canucks and best player when both players had their peak and prime with this team. Otherwise, Messier and Sundin are in our "best" players lists. Otherwise guys like Rick Rypien and Gino Odjick are in our "greatest" players lists.

When assessing guys like Linden and Naslund, I'm valuing how good they were at hockey; narratives around "clutchness" or whatever are kinda secondary.

YMMV!!

Glorified grinder? Linden had several seasons near PPG in the dead puck era and was a Calder finalist (came in 2nd to Leetch). Makes sense that you didn't follow the team until WCE. Linden's best seasons were behind him by then, at least in terms of offensive numbers.

That said, Naslund definitely had the better peak. He had the best shot in the league for a couple of seasons.

 

[Dissonance Jr]

Naslund was a tremendous player, but even before the Moore hit it always felt like he lacked that killer instinct that would've taken him to the next level.

The final day of the regular season in 2003 really sticks out. Naslund was leading Peter Forsberg by 1 point in the scoring race heading in. So Forsberg goes out and puts up 3 points against the Blues early in the evening to take over the lead and vault Colorado to the top of the Northwest. We go up against the mediocre Kings later that night, Naslund has a chance to seize the Art Ross and help the Canucks win the division... and the team gets shut out in a listless performance.

It's probably unfair to make too much of one game, but it felt telling. Linden was never skilled enough to contend for an Art Ross, but I also sorta doubt he just would've passively accepted his fate if put in a similar position. And it's not a Euro thing: When the Sedins were in that exact same situation in the last game of 2010 they pounded the Flames into rubble, with Henrik putting up four points to stay clear of Ovechkin/Crosby and win the scoring title.

 

[vancityluongo]

Glorified grinder? Linden had several seasons near PPG in the dead puck era and was a Calder finalist (came in 2nd to Leetch). Makes sense that you didn't follow the team until WCE. Linden's best seasons were behind him by then, at least in terms of offensive numbers.

That said, Naslund definitely had the better peak. He had the best shot in the league for a couple of seasons.

The grinder comment is based on his statistical finishes. I'm actually convinced that Canucks fans have no idea where his scoring finishes were relative to the league. Having not watched him play, I'm genuinely baffled at what it was that made Linden so highly regarded.

This is where Linden was in league scoring from 1989 to 1997 (I'm going off where NHL.com is listing him vs counting ties out of laziness):

1988-89: 181st (59 points in 80 games; Linden finished just above Russ Courtnall in the scoring race because he had one more goal. David Volek is listed above because he scored 59 points in 77 games)

1989-90: 112th (51 points in 73 games, just below Tom Kurvers with 52 in 71 and just above Dave McLlwain who had 51 points in 80 games)

1990-91: 42nd (70 points in 80 games, just below Michal Pivonka with 70 in 79, and above Kirk Muller with 70 in 80, but with 16 goals to TL's 33)

1991-92: 44th (75 points in 80 games, tied in scoring with Brian Bellows and above Vladimir Ruzicka who had 75 in 77)

1992-93: 77th (72 points in 84 games, just below Jimmy Carson who had 73 in 86 and for some reason listed above Dimitri Kvartalnov on NHL.com, who had 72 points in 73 games)

1993-94: 80th (61 points in 84 games, just below Dave Gagner who had an identical statline in 8 less games, and right above Scott Mellanby with 60 points in 80 games)

1994-95: 44th (40 points in 48 games - tied with Vincent Damphousse, just above Stephane Richer's 39 in 45)

1995-96: 35th (the "near PPG" season - Trev's highest ever scoring finish. 80 points in 82 games. Comparable to Petr Bondra who had 80 in 67 and Brian Bradley who had 79 in 75. Filtering for players with more than 25 games, Linden finished 45th in points per game)

1996-97: 140th (an injury filled season of 40 points in 49 games which obviously hurts the scoring finish. 50th in PPG, along with Andrew Cassels and Geoff Sanderson)

Like... he never even once came close to cracking a top-20 point finish. I'm too lazy to go back and confirm, but I don't think with a career high of 33 goals (three separate times) that he ever cracked the top-20 in goals either.

Now look at this: NHL Stats

Linden was consistently very good for a very long time; definitely gotta give him that. And Naslund's fall from the top was rough. But at their best, I just don't really see a comparison from looking at the stats. Linden had one 5th place Selke finish from what I can find. He'd need like, 3 wins to make up the offensive difference between the two.

 

[Dissonance Jr]

The grinder comment is based on his statistical finishes. I'm actually convinced that Canucks fans have no idea where his scoring finishes were relative to the league. Having not watched him play, I'm genuinely baffled at what it was that made Linden so highly regarded.

This is where Linden was in league scoring from 1989 to 1997 (I'm going off where NHL.com is listing him vs counting ties out of laziness):

1988-89: 181st (59 points in 80 games; Linden finished just above Russ Courtnall in the scoring race because he had one more goal. David Volek is listed above because he scored 59 points in 77 games)

1989-90: 112th (51 points in 73 games, just below Tom Kurvers with 52 in 71 and just above Dave McLlwain who had 51 points in 80 games)

1990-91: 42nd (70 points in 80 games, just below Michal Pivonka with 70 in 79, and above Kirk Muller with 70 in 80, but with 16 goals to TL's 33)

1991-92: 44th (75 points in 80 games, tied in scoring with Brian Bellows and above Vladimir Ruzicka who had 75 in 77)

1992-93: 77th (72 points in 84 games, just below Jimmy Carson who had 73 in 86 and for some reason listed above Dimitri Kvartalnov on NHL.com, who had 72 points in 73 games)

1993-94: 80th (61 points in 84 games, just below Dave Gagner who had an identical statline in 8 less games, and right above Scott Mellanby with 60 points in 80 games)

1994-95: 44th (40 points in 48 games - tied with Vincent Damphousse, just above Stephane Richer's 39 in 45)

1995-96: 35th (the "near PPG" season - Trev's highest ever scoring finish. 80 points in 82 games. Comparable to Petr Bondra who had 80 in 67 and Brian Bradley who had 79 in 75. Filtering for players with more than 25 games, Linden finished 45th in points per game)

1996-97: 140th (an injury filled season of 40 points in 49 games which obviously hurts the scoring finish. 50th in PPG, along with Andrew Cassels and Geoff Sanderson)

Like... he never even once came close to cracking a top-20 point finish. I'm too lazy to go back and confirm, but I don't think with a career high of 33 goals (three separate times) that he ever cracked the top-20 in goals either.

Now look at this: NHL Stats

Linden was consistently very good for a very long time; definitely gotta give him that. And Naslund's fall from the top was rough. But at their best, I just don't really see a comparison from looking at the stats. Linden had one 5th place Selke finish from what I can find. He'd need like, 3 wins to make up the offensive difference between the two.

Linden was never an offensive powerhouse, I agree, but we should throw in the numbers that made him so highly regarded in his first tour with the Canucks — 80 points in 79 playoff games. That was a big part of his reputation.

 

[Diversification]

The grinder comment is based on his statistical finishes. I'm actually convinced that Canucks fans have no idea where his scoring finishes were relative to the league. Having not watched him play, I'm genuinely baffled at what it was that made Linden so highly regarded.

This is where Linden was in league scoring from 1989 to 1997 (I'm going off where NHL.com is listing him vs counting ties out of laziness):

1988-89: 181st (59 points in 80 games; Linden finished just above Russ Courtnall in the scoring race because he had one more goal. David Volek is listed above because he scored 59 points in 77 games)

1989-90: 112th (51 points in 73 games, just below Tom Kurvers with 52 in 71 and just above Dave McLlwain who had 51 points in 80 games)

1990-91: 42nd (70 points in 80 games, just below Michal Pivonka with 70 in 79, and above Kirk Muller with 70 in 80, but with 16 goals to TL's 33)

1991-92: 44th (75 points in 80 games, tied in scoring with Brian Bellows and above Vladimir Ruzicka who had 75 in 77)

1992-93: 77th (72 points in 84 games, just below Jimmy Carson who had 73 in 86 and for some reason listed above Dimitri Kvartalnov on NHL.com, who had 72 points in 73 games)

1993-94: 80th (61 points in 84 games, just below Dave Gagner who had an identical statline in 8 less games, and right above Scott Mellanby with 60 points in 80 games)

1994-95: 44th (40 points in 48 games - tied with Vincent Damphousse, just above Stephane Richer's 39 in 45)

1995-96: 35th (the "near PPG" season - Trev's highest ever scoring finish. 80 points in 82 games. Comparable to Petr Bondra who had 80 in 67 and Brian Bradley who had 79 in 75. Filtering for players with more than 25 games, Linden finished 45th in points per game)

1996-97: 140th (an injury filled season of 40 points in 49 games which obviously hurts the scoring finish. 50th in PPG, along with Andrew Cassels and Geoff Sanderson)

Like... he never even once came close to cracking a top-20 point finish. I'm too lazy to go back and confirm, but I don't think with a career high of 33 goals (three separate times) that he ever cracked the top-20 in goals either.

Now look at this: NHL Stats

Linden was consistently very good for a very long time; definitely gotta give him that. And Naslund's fall from the top was rough. But at their best, I just don't really see a comparison from looking at the stats. Linden had one 5th place Selke finish from what I can find. He'd need like, 3 wins to make up the offensive difference between the two.

He played nothing like most of the players you listed. Bondra? Cassels? The only one I see on that list that was similar is Kirk Muller.

Better player comparables for Linden are Shane Doan and Rod Brind'Amour. Are they grinders in your book as well?

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Pre-2004 he made an effort and wasn't that bad for a top skill player.

2005-2008 Naslund was a black hole. I'm probably harsher to him than I should be because those 3 years left such a terrible taste in my mouth.

The Moore incident destroyed 3 careers.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

The grinder comment is based on his statistical finishes. I'm actually convinced that Canucks fans have no idea where his scoring finishes were relative to the league. Having not watched him play, I'm genuinely baffled at what it was that made Linden so highly regarded.

This is where Linden was in league scoring from 1989 to 1997 (I'm going off where NHL.com is listing him vs counting ties out of laziness):

1988-89: 181st (59 points in 80 games; Linden finished just above Russ Courtnall in the scoring race because he had one more goal. David Volek is listed above because he scored 59 points in 77 games)

1989-90: 112th (51 points in 73 games, just below Tom Kurvers with 52 in 71 and just above Dave McLlwain who had 51 points in 80 games)

1990-91: 42nd (70 points in 80 games, just below Michal Pivonka with 70 in 79, and above Kirk Muller with 70 in 80, but with 16 goals to TL's 33)

1991-92: 44th (75 points in 80 games, tied in scoring with Brian Bellows and above Vladimir Ruzicka who had 75 in 77)

1992-93: 77th (72 points in 84 games, just below Jimmy Carson who had 73 in 86 and for some reason listed above Dimitri Kvartalnov on NHL.com, who had 72 points in 73 games)

1993-94: 80th (61 points in 84 games, just below Dave Gagner who had an identical statline in 8 less games, and right above Scott Mellanby with 60 points in 80 games)

1994-95: 44th (40 points in 48 games - tied with Vincent Damphousse, just above Stephane Richer's 39 in 45)

1995-96: 35th (the "near PPG" season - Trev's highest ever scoring finish. 80 points in 82 games. Comparable to Petr Bondra who had 80 in 67 and Brian Bradley who had 79 in 75. Filtering for players with more than 25 games, Linden finished 45th in points per game)

1996-97: 140th (an injury filled season of 40 points in 49 games which obviously hurts the scoring finish. 50th in PPG, along with Andrew Cassels and Geoff Sanderson)

Like... he never even once came close to cracking a top-20 point finish. I'm too lazy to go back and confirm, but I don't think with a career high of 33 goals (three separate times) that he ever cracked the top-20 in goals either.

Now look at this: NHL Stats

Linden was consistently very good for a very long time; definitely gotta give him that. And Naslund's fall from the top was rough. But at their best, I just don't really see a comparison from looking at the stats. Linden had one 5th place Selke finish from what I can find. He'd need like, 3 wins to make up the offensive difference between the two.

Looking purely at stats will tell you one story, for sure. But have a peek at Linden’s playoff stats while you are at it - specifically for the years up to 1996, when he was in his prime. His game consistently elevated in the post season, and his points per game was consistently higher in the playoffs versus his regular season contributions. Part of the reason Linden gets so much admiration amongst Canucks fans is because he was a “big game player” who always managed to find that extra gear when games counted the most. Heck, even if you want to shoot forward to his final playoff appearance in 2007, he lead the team in scoring in the post season that year while scoring or setting up four of the team’s five game winning goals that year. In his career he played in 9 Game 7s and he had 6 goals and 6 assists for 12 points in those series deciding games. He also had arguably the game of his career in Game 7 vs the Rangers in 1994, scoring both goals in the team’s 3-2 loss - that spring, he was the only Canuck apart from Hall of Famer Pavel Bure to finish the post season at a higher than a point per game clip.

His game was considered good enough to merit multiple invitations to the NHL All Star game, as well as being named to Team Canada’s rosters for the World Cup and the Olympics. So even though his stats may not leap out at you, his game was strong enough to earn him a lot of respect around the league and the hockey world.

But looking beyond just the stats is an important one here, too. Naslund was a sublimely skilled offensive player, but that is really all he was - an offensive player. Linden was a fixture not only on the power play, but on the penalty kill. He drew all the team’s tough matchups. He was the guy out defending leads in the dying minutes of games. He was your all situations player in a way that Naslund, for all his offensive accolades, simply wasn’t. Whether it was in his prime in his first go round with the team, or on his second tour of duty where he played a much more defensive role, Linden was the more versatile player.

Further to that - and this may be the biggest reason he’s so adored to this day - were his contributions off the ice. IMO, only the Sedins have matched Linden for giving back to the community in Vancouver and BC as a whole. Linden was the first Canuck to rent out a suite for under privileged kids to attend games on his dime, and he would always visit the suite after games to sign autographs, take pictures and give out swag. He was the first Canuck to win the King Clancy award for community contributions, something only Henrik and Daniel have managed since.

At the end of the day; if you want to compare Linden and Naslund as players, you should really watch some footage of both of them playing. Naslund was a top tier offensive force for us for a while, and I think he is certainly the more talented player - but I think Linden’s impact on the franchise was more significant.

 

[Hit the post]

Linden was never an offensive powerhouse, I agree, but we should throw in the numbers that made him so highly regarded in his first tour with the Canucks — 80 points in 79 playoff games. That was a big part of his reputation.

I want to say it again, Linden had to play center alot for the Canucks. You have alot more responsibilities (defensively) in that position. Reason why it's difficult to shift from winger to center in the NHL (which Linden had to do).

When you're down a goal, you probably want Nazzy on the ice. ZERO question if we're up by a goal, you'd rather have Linden on the ice.

 

[Wry n Ginger]

Linden was the type of player that made the big play when his team needed him to. He was clutch. He also hit hard, bled for his team and came back to the bench exhausted after almost every shift. He did way more with his talent level than most players.

 

[mathonwy]

Oh, absolutely.

There were rumblings he was done with the NHL and wanted to retire during the 04-05 lockout, and then he found $18 million reasons to come back for 3 more years. And spent those entire 3 years as a lazy perimeter player with the body language of someone whose dog had just died.

Was Nazzy the original Loui Eriksson?

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

Was Nazzy the original Loui Eriksson?

If Eriksson had performed half as well as Naslund did on that deal, he’d be a moveable asset. Naslund was still a 50-60 point, legitimate top six player.

 

[mathonwy]

If Eriksson had performed half as well as Naslund did on that deal, he’d be a moveable asset. Naslund was still a 50-60 point, legitimate top six player.

So what your saying is that Loui Eriksson is the original Loui Eriksson.

What a legend. I’m honoured to have borne witness to his legacy.

 

[PuckMunchkin]

Oh, absolutely.

*There were rumblings he was done with the NHL and wanted to retire during the 04-05 lockout*, and then he found $18 million reasons to come back for 3 more years. And spent those entire 3 years as a lazy perimeter player with the body language of someone whose dog had just died.

Can you link that up? I remember nothing of the sort.

- Moore ruined Nazzys elbow and took away his wrister (go see his shooting% before and after, very similar to Daniel post Keith elbow)
- Bertuzzi ruined Bertuzzi's head
- The ghost of the incident never left the Canucks


Also... People forget, or dont know, he was the most productive player in the league from 2000-2003