Lidstrom the first top-20 (skaters) to retire since Bourque?

[Hardyvan123]

Also wanna throw this out there - I think people put a little too much stock in how a bunch of guys vote. Not that it counts for nothing, but it's not everything.

This is very true and we have seen voters having different types of patterns over the years, especially for the Hart trophy and reputation voting seems to come into play for the Norris a bit as well.

 

[Hardyvan123]

TDMM - the following Doug Harvey clip illustrates, playing on the edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkcH6jsqJE0&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL4F9F6522498C74B1

Note the play from the period opening faceoff against Boston. He gets the puck from the draw then moves to the extreme corner of the neutral zone rectangle creating wider lanes and open ice, producing a goal.

Colour goal against Toronto, note how he plays the extreme corner of the offensive zone, spin move and a goal.

The forward coming out to the point on that last goal for Toronto would be heading to the minors if he had done a drive by job of defense like that in the last 15-20 years.

Harvey is one of the all time greats from the back end and there is no doubt he could ahve been more offensively, and his production and play in the playoffs is awesome, but not really sure on the point of this clip and especially how it would relate to other eras.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Serge Savard

Here is what Bowman said a few days ago...



http://nhl-red-light.si.com/2012/05/31/was-nick-lidstrom-mvp-of-his-era/


So, yes, Bowman puts him in the group with Potvin, Bourque, Savard, Robinson, and Coffey. But let's say Bowman even put him at the top of that group; we're at the Gretzky thinks Fuhr is the greatest goaltender ever part of the conversation. You could be the greatest player, you could be the greatest coach, you could be the greatest GM - whatever - but it doesn't make you a certified Andy Sutton expert of the past 125+ years of the sport. If no one is keeping you on your toes daily about your opinions of Sprague Cleghorn, Jiri Holecek, or say... Eddie Shore - who I really hope was on the tip of Bowman's tongue during that interview - then no, we don't have to default to your opinion over those being held to that standard on HOH.

Bowman has a lot of credibility. A lot. But his opinion isn't carved into stone tablets; we can disagree with him.

So Scotty Bowman groups Nicklas Lidstrom with Serge Savard who earned very few individual honours. Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12-x70nq0vI

May 10,1979 game 7 tying goal, first reply - watch the subtle pick by Savard between the red and blue line. No assist awarded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l22FV4105p8

Same game, winning goal, note the Serge Savard move in his zone, finesse stripping of the puck and instant transition producing the winning goal.

Serge Savard was able to accomplis plays similar to a healthy Lidstrom after coming back from two badly broken legs and knee surgery.

Basically the individual honours are nice but they do not reflect the true talent of a player.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Being the best of all time is after all about consistency isn't it?

Which is why I think Lidstrom had a better career than MacInnis and Leetch but not a better peak. You would know this if you read my posts for content rather than looking for an excuse to name-drop Tom Bladon.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Yes, the year Lidstrom won his third straight Norris and outscored Chelios 59-39 while taking tougher defensive assignments at even strength. Chelios was probably a better penalty killer still, but come on. Chelios had a great comeback year and a lot of writers wanted to reward him for it, rather than the nonphysical European guy who had won the last two Norrises.

IMO, Lidstrom was clearly the best Red Wing in the playoffs too - he played over 31 minutes per game! Chelios was second with a bit over 26, then Fedorov at 22 and changes. A large and vocal minority wanted to give the Smythe to the good old Canadian captain who played on one knee rather than that European guy who had the nerve to play defense without smashing people.

Second. 2001, 2002.

And that makes him, what, narrowly better than 40-year-old Chris Chelios? Now compare him to Theodore, Iginla, Roy, Burke, Bertuzzi, and Naslund. Hell, compare him to Sundin who won the Viking Award or Forsberg who showed up everybody in the playoffs.


And don't play that "good old Canadian captain" card as if anyone really gave a hoot about nationality in 2002. Yzerman was their leading scorer and he was playing hurt; being Canadian had nothing to do with the support he received. If anything, the novelty of crowning a European MVP and avoiding a repeat winner helped Lidstrom (Pronger Effect).

 

[Hardyvan123]

Which is why I think Lidstrom had a better career than MacInnis and Leetch but not a better peak. You would know this if you read my posts for content rather than looking for an excuse to name-drop Tom Bladon.

Well who brought up the "who would you want at their very best" to begin with?

Even at their peaks Leetch and Mac were not that much more dominant offensively as the counting stats would seem to indicate at 1st glance.

It's almost fitting that Lidstrom's offensive prowess flies under the radar like much of his play throughout his career.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Even at their peaks Leetch and Mac were not that much more dominant offensively

Leetch: 102 points, 9th (1992); 34 points in 23 games (1994)
MacInnis: 103 points, 9th (1991); 31 points in 22 games (1989)
Lidstrom: 73 points, 17th (2000); 18 points in 18 games (2007)


Yes, they were.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Many HHOFers

Well who brought up the "who would you want at their very best" to begin with?

Even at their peaks Leetch and Mac were not that much more dominant offensively as the counting stats would seem to indicate at 1st glance.

It's almost fitting that Lidstrom's offensive prowess flies under the radar like much of his play throughout his career.

But this phrase typifies many HHOFers that catch grief for being unworthy - Dick Duff, George Armstrong, Bob Pulford to name a few.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Second. 2001, 2002.

And that makes him, what, narrowly better than 40-year-old Chris Chelios? Now compare him to Theodore, Iginla, Roy, Burke, Bertuzzi, and Naslund. Hell, compare him to Sundin who won the Viking Award or Forsberg[/B who showed up everybody in the playoffs.

Okay Forsberg is in the mix for best player in the world for that year, except he was injured for most of it.

I love Sundin and he had an under rated year in 02 but lets not kid ourselves he won the viking award based on 4 games in the Olympics that year.

And narrowly better than Chelios who had a great 40 year season to be sure but seriously you need to give your head a shake if you think the difference between Lidstrom and Chelios was only narrow.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong but in several posts you have Lidstrom when he is better, like in the case here with Chelios being narrow and on the other hand his offensive is not dominant when it's pretty clear it's in the discussion for top 10 of all time when put into it's proper context.

And don't play that "good old Canadian captain" card as if anyone really gave a hoot about nationality in 2002. Yzerman was their leading scorer and he was playing hurt; being Canadian had nothing to do with the support he received. If anything, the novelty of crowning a European MVP and avoiding a repeat winner helped Lidstrom (Pronger Effect).

It would be nice if the European Captain thing still wasn't an issue in 02 but it was still in some hockey circles.

 

[Rhiessan71]

It's almost fitting that Lidstrom's offensive prowess flies under the radar like much of his play throughout his career.

Bull****! If his overall play was flying under the radar he wouldn't be ranked amongst the top 5 D-men ever.

That has never been the issue and is definitely not the issue we're discussing here.

His offensive prowess, as you put it, is as a PP QB. He is not and never has been an offensive d-man. He played defensive first and rarely if ever took risks, even calculated ones.

Career Points per Game
Coffey 1.09 PpG
Bourque .98 PpG
MacInnis .90 PpG
Leetch .85 PpG
Lidstrom .73 PpG

Even Strength Points
Coffey .58 PpG
Bourque .48 PpG
Leetch .39 PpG
MacInnis .37 PpG
Lidstrom .33 PpG

Percentage of Points at Even Strength
Coffey 53.3%
Bourque 49.0%
Leetch 45.1%
Lidstrom 44.8%
MacInnis 40.7%

These results concur with my eye test of these players.
Coffey was clearly a level above Bourque, Bourque a level above Leetch and MacInnis, then Lidstrom a level below them.

All 5 were very good PP QB's and the order remains relatively the same with the exception of MacInnis, who moves to the top spot as the most proficient PP QB.

Lidstrom is clearly the least dangerous offensively of the 5 in any category.
The closest Lidstrom comes to is to Mac at even strength but Mac blows him away as a PP QB.

It's not that Lidstrom was poor offensively, not at all, it's just that he was definitely not on the same levels as the other 4.
Lidstrom's strength was his defense and he is markedly above everyone on this list except for Bourque.
However, Bourque is closer to Lidstrom defensively than Lidstrom is to Bourque offensively.

This is the way I saw it when they played and the stats seem to back that up.


And lets be honest here, Lidstrom's defense along with his 20 seasons and 1564 games played has more to do with his top 5 ranking than his offense does.

I consider Lidstrom a better player than Coffey, Leetch or MacInnis but he was clearly not as good as any of them offensively.
Bourque and Potvin were IMO better players than Lidstrom but Lids overtakes Potvin overall on longevity.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Leetch: 102 points, 9th (1992); 34 points in 23 games (1994)
MacInnis: 103 points, 9th (1991); 31 points in 22 games (1989)
Lidstrom: 73 points, 17th (2000); 18 points in 18 games (2007)


Yes, they were.

I was talking about regular season where in 91 where they were 4 Dmen in the top 20 and 7 in the top 50 scoring.

Leetch in 92 was 9th and there were 5 Dmen in the top 50

In both of those years there were 21 teams in the league.

In 00 when Lidstrom was 18th with 73 points Pronger was the only other Dman in the top 50 at 46th and rob Blake was 60th.

All of this is a 28 team league (7 more teams with top 6 PP and QB opportunity as well).

Playoff are a whole different ball of wax as teams play a different amount of games and some play none at all to be a fair and more accurate comp regular season is a better measure of these things.

Also while I agree that both Leetch and Big Mac had the best 1 year peak seasons offensively of these 3 guys (and the gap isn't as great when taken into proper context either IMO) when we go down their lists of 2nd, 3rd, 4th ect.. the gap becomes even less so.

Just as a side point don't most people take the term peak to mean 5 seasons and usually in a row or is it a matter of personal interpretation?

But this phrase typifies many HHOFers that catch grief for being unworthy - Dick Duff, George Armstrong, Bob Pulford to name a few.

Lidstrom, Duff, Armstrong, Pulford one of these things are not like the others any guess?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Bull****! If his overall play was flying under the radar he wouldn't be ranked amongst the top 5 D-men ever.

That has never been the issue and is definitely not the issue we're discussing here.

His offensive prowess, as you put it, is as a PP QB. He is not and never has been an offensive d-man. He played defensive first and rarely if ever took risks, even calculated ones.

Career Points per Game
Coffey 1.09 PpG
Bourque .98 PpG
MacInnis .90 PpG
Leetch .85 PpG
Lidstrom .73 PpG

Even Strength Points
Coffey .58 PpG
Bourque .48 PpG
Leetch .39 PpG
MacInnis .37 PpG
Lidstrom .33 PpG

Percentage of Points at Even Strength
Coffey 53.3%
Bourque 49.0%
Leetch 45.1%
Lidstrom 44.8%
MacInnis 40.7%

These results concur with my eye test of these players.
Coffey was clearly a level above Bourque, Bourque a level above Leetch and MacInnis, then Lidstrom a level below them.

All 5 were very good PP QB's and the order remains relatively the same with the exception of MacInnis, who moves to the top spot as the most proficient PP QB.

Lidstrom is clearly the least dangerous offensively of the 5 in any category.
The closest Lidstrom comes to is to Mac at even strength but Mac blows him away as a PP QB.

It's not that Lidstrom was poor offensively, not at all, it's just that he was definitely not on the same levels as the other 4.
Lidstrom's strength was his defense and he is markedly above everyone on this list except for Bourque.
However, Bourque is closer to Lidstrom defensively than Lidstrom is to Bourque offensively.

This is the way I saw it when they played and the stats seem to back that up.


And lets be honest here, Lidstrom's defense along with his 20 seasons and 1564 games played has more to do with his top 5 ranking than his offense does.

I consider Lidstrom a better player than Coffey, Leetch or MacInnis but he was clearly not as good as any of them offensively.
Bourque and Potvin were IMO better players than Lidstrom but Lids overtakes Potvin overall on longevity.

Unless you put each players offense into some kind of context, what's the use of comparing raw stats from the 80's and early 90's to a whole career post 92?

See the context of the era that Lidstrom played in either is taken into account or it is ignored, as you are doing here.

If you can't even bother to provide some context then it's useless to even reply to your post here.

Read back in the thread and you will find some context of each players stats.

 

[tombombadil]

http://dropyourgloves.com/Stat/LeagueGoals.aspx



I'm not about to claim Lidstrom as a rushing defenseman in the vein of Paul Coffey or Leetch - but if we are gonna look at numbers, let's be reasonable about it. Dennis Maruk wasn't more dominant offensively at his peak than Ovechkin was at his - but I could say,

Maruk - 136
Ovechkin - 112

"yes, he was"

 

[quoipourquoi]

Just as a side point don't most people take the term peak to mean 5 seasons and usually in a row or is it a matter of personal interpretation?

When Sir Edmund Hillary climbed to the peak of Mount Everest, did people ask about K2, Kangchenjunga, Lhotse, and Makalu?


A peak is the highest point, not a range of high points. That would be a prime.

 

[tombombadil]

Ironically, I had always been under the impression that Lidstrom never produced points at an elite level as a defenseman, and that he made his name off of D. Although I still view him as a defenseman first, and secondarily as a PP QB who made great first passes out of his own end, now that I actually sit here and compare these 5 players' numbers, I don't see MacIniss as ANY better, production-wise, Bourque and Leetch are only very moderately better, I'm going to say 5-10% with a rough look, not crunching the numbers completely, and that Coffey does, of course, stand ahead of him. But Coffey's adjusted numbers leave a much bigger gap between him and the group than Big Mac's and Nik's do looking up to the group.

A real eye-opener here, thanks French guys!

 

[quoipourquoi]

Dennis Maruk wasn't more dominant offensively at his peak than Ovechkin was at his - but I could say,

Maruk - 136
Ovechkin - 112

"yes, he was"

If only I was nice enough to list the years in parentheses as well as their respective league placements. Oh, wait - I totally did!

You want to adjust them, fine. Use whatever system you want (HR has it as Leetch, 91; MacInnis, 92; Lidstrom, 79) and tell me that Lidstrom - without a top-10 finish - is in their company in peak offense.

 

[tjcurrie]

I think Rhiessan71's main point was to break down % of pp points as compared to even strength - to back up his theory of Lidstrom being more of a ppqb/blue line controller than a total package offensive Dman like Bourque, Coffey, and Leetch. That's kind of always been my image of Lidstrom as well.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Unless you put each players offense into some kind of context, what's the use of comparing raw stats from the 80's and early 90's to a whole career post 92?

See the context of the era that Lidstrom played in either is taken into account or it is ignored, as you are doing here.

If you can't even bother to provide some context then it's useless to even reply to your post here.

Read back in the thread and you will find some context of each players stats.

Heh, the last time I provided the comparisons from these 5 players only spanning the time they were all in the league at the same time, I got blasted because Lidstrom hadn't "peaked" enough for it to be fair.
Even though the stats covered a full half (91/92-00/01) of Lidstrom's career.
It's a complete joke that that info is disregarded because Lidstrom took far longer than anyone else to "peak".

I think Rhiessan71's main point was to break down % of pp points as compared to even strength - to back up his theory of Lidstrom being more of a ppqb/blue line controller than a total package offensive Dman like Bourque, Coffey, and Leetch. That's kind of always been my image of Lidstrom as well.

Bingo!

 

[tombombadil]

I don't think that was his main point at all, and being .3 of a % off of Leetch in % of production at even strength is a wash for me, as far as style of dman. Now, like I said, Leetch produced at a slightly higher level, overall. Looking at the adjusted numbers, in a typical big year, Leetch cracks 80 points, Lidstrom cracks 70... they each do it a handful of times. MacIniss has the big outlier at 92 points, and after that, I'm not even sure his top 5 years would even be as good as Lidstrom's. Either way, it's very close, and Rhiessan's numbers show that MacIniss got a higher % of his numbers on the PP. Bourque, adjusted, is actually really similar to Lidstrom. Incredibly long careers where they can pop up with close to a point-per-game really anytime in their 20 years. Neither have one or two massive outlying seasons... probably too busy playing defense, both of them. Unless you are looking at raw numbers, I can't see a gap big enough in their points production to warrant that Lids was 'better defensively, but with a smaller margin" as the offensive margin is very small to begin with. I would have a hard time trusting my own abilities to read 20 years of defensive play, and split a hair down to that fine of a detail in order to pick a winner, if I believed that one was better, but by less than their offensive difference. I believe that was Rhiessan's real point, to make sure that Bourque is seen as better.

Personally, I don't have a distinction between Bourque and Lidstrom, in fact, they are eerily similar in several ways. Both are above Leetch and Mac by a good bit, more than I had previously thought, having thought that their offensive numbers were much better than Lidstrom's. Coffey is another animal altogether, and it really just comes down to what you like in a dman. He is inarguably the best offensively of this, and nearly any group. He is also inarguably the worst defensively.

Looking at these 5, and their numbers, I would have to rank them, offensively, like this:

Coffey
Leetch
Bourque
MacIniss
Lidstrom

but the thing is, if i had to rate them out of 100, it would go something like:

Coffey - 100
Leetch - 90
Bourque - 83
MacIniss - 81
Lidstrom - 80

He's really not far off, when era is taken into account, and definitely not enough to be put in a lower-level of offensive defensemen... aside from Coffey, but then I think they all are lower than him, in their own, A-level group. Coffey is A+.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Just for ***** and giggles, here's the re-post of the 10 year comparison of D-men offensively from 91/92-00/01

Leetch .90 PpG (702/631)
Bourque .87 PpG (742/645)
MacInnis .84 PpG (656/549)
Coffey .81 PpG (600/486)
Housley .79 PpG (671/530)
Zubov .76 PpG (617/466)
Lidstrom .73 PpG (775/567)
Murphy .72 PpG (755/544)
Ozolinsh .71 PpG (578/413)
Duchene .66 PpG (667/442)
Blake .66 PpG (583/383)
Niedermayer .54 PpG (654/350)
Stevens .50 PpG (755/381)

 

[Rhiessan71]

Well I picked up on it and he confirmed it so I would lean towards that being his point. If it wasn't his point, he likely would have tried to reiterate what you guys believed to be his point.

I'm not saying I do or do not agree with where he ranks among that group in certain aspects and I certainly don't look at % points as small as .3 as a difference, but regardless, I grasped the point and wherever you rank him, I believe in his theory. It's a matter of opinion how you wanna translate that in to rankings but that's just how I see Lidstrom as well in comparison to those guys when it comes to putting up offense.

Correct, it's what I stated earlier in the thread as to what separates Coffey, Leetch and Bourque from Lidstrom offensively
Lidstrom is closer to MacInnis at even strength but Mac was the PP king, which, for people who remember Mac, I don't think I even needed to provide the stats to prove it.


To provide further context, does anyone in their right mind consider Chara an offensive D-man?
Yet when you look at even strength scoring over the last 5-6 years, Chara is out scoring Lidstrom in that regard.
I think that about says it all IMO.

 

[Epsilon]

When Sir Edmund Hillary climbed to the peak of Mount Everest, did people ask about K2, Kangchenjunga, Lhotse, and Makalu?


A peak is the highest point, not a range of high points. That would be a prime.

No to go too far off-topic, but this is an embarrassing attempt at an analogy that suggests you don't know a thing about mountaineering other than how to measure height above sea level. It's akin to suggesting that Bernie Nicholls had a higher peak than Jaromir Jagr because he scored 150 points while Jagr only got to 149.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

TDMM - the following Doug Harvey clip illustrates, playing on the edge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkcH6jsqJE0&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL4F9F6522498C74B1

Note the play from the period opening faceoff against Boston. He gets the puck from the draw then moves to the extreme corner of the neutral zone rectangle creating wider lanes and open ice, producing a goal.

Colour goal against Toronto, note how he plays the extreme corner of the offensive zone, spin move and a goal.

Thanks for the clip

Also wanna throw this out there - I think people put a little too much stock in how a bunch of guys vote. Not that it counts for nothing, but it's not everything.

I agree with this and I do think that sometimes I am guilty of it, as well.

This is very true and we have seen voters having different types of patterns over the years, especially for the Hart trophy and reputation voting seems to come into play for the Norris a bit as well.

Definitely. I think voting patterns must be taken into account to extract meaning from voting.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Second. 2001, 2002.

And that makes him, what, narrowly better than 40-year-old Chris Chelios? Now compare him to Theodore, Iginla, Roy, Burke, Bertuzzi, and Naslund. Hell, compare him to Sundin who won the Viking Award or Forsberg who showed up everybody in the playoffs.

Yes, I was thinking of the third straight Norris in 2003. 2002 was in the midst of the streak.

Lidstrom was easily better than 40 year old Chris Chelios. The playoffs drove that home quite clearly. Theodore had a great 2002 regular season, but do you think he really had a case as the best player in the league at that time? After Hasek declined and Jagr sulked, the best player in the world was either Forsberg or Lidstrom. And I consider staying healthy a part of what makes someone a great player.

I realize that it was a minority view at the time, but it was definitely a justifiable one.

And don't play that "good old Canadian captain" card as if anyone really gave a hoot about nationality in 2002. Yzerman was their leading scorer and he was playing hurt; being Canadian had nothing to do with the support he received. If anything, the novelty of crowning a European MVP and avoiding a repeat winner helped Lidstrom (Pronger Effect).

The Don Cherry crowd clearly gave a hoot about nationality as late as 2002, and they were the ones most vocal about Yzerman.

Yzerman had a great playoffs in 2002, but I thought Lidstrom was definitely better. I don't see it as Niedermayer in 2007 at all. IMO, Yzerman 2002 was better than any Duck in 2007, but Lidstrom was even better than Yzerman.

I'm also not sure what you mean by the Pronger Effect.

And narrowly better than Chelios who had a great 40 year season to be sure but seriously you need to give your head a shake if you think the difference between Lidstrom and Chelios was only narrow.

.

I think you go over the top sometimes with your pro-Lidstrom arguments (he can't hold Orr's jock), but you are absolutely right here.

 

[tjcurrie]

Well I picked up on it and he confirmed it so I would lean towards that being his point. If it wasn't his point, he likely would have tried to reiterate what you guys believed to be his point.

I'm not saying I do or do not agree with where he ranks among that group in certain aspects and I certainly don't look at % points as small as .3 as a difference, but regardless, I grasped the point and wherever you rank him, I believe in his theory. It's a matter of opinion how you wanna translate that in to rankings but that's just how I see Lidstrom as well in comparison to those guys when it comes to putting up offense.

I agree with this and I do think that sometimes I am guilty of it, as well.



Definitely. I think voting patterns must be taken into account to extract meaning from voting.

I think it's hard not to get caught up in it, especially when it does favor your argument. Heck if you have your opinion, and the voters agree, why not run with it? But yeah I just think that at the end of the day, we need to realize that it's a bunch of guys who have their own opinions just like we do and favoritism likely plays a role. And year by year players games change somewhat, and voters' opinions change too.