Left Hand / Right Hand Shot Centers

[Canadiens1958]

Forever amazed and puzzled that posters clump LHS and RHS centers together and compare them as apples to apples.

Scouts recognize the difference when evaluating talent.Coaches do this when creating lines, for face-offs, defensive match-ups,power play selection, etc.GM when drafting and trading - equal talent take the RHS since a RHS center is harder to find. Players recognize the difference when playing stickside, on face-offs etc.

Yet this distinction is rarely considered on the history board.

Click to read more...

 

[bohlmeister]

Forever amazed and puzzled that posters clump LHS and RHS centers together and compare them as apples to apples.

Scouts recognize the difference when evaluating talent.Coaches do this when creating lines, for face-offs, defensive match-ups,power play selection, etc.GM when drafting and trading - equal talent take the RHS since a RHS center is harder to find. Players recognize the difference when playing stickside, on face-offs etc.

Yet this distinction is rarely considered on the history board.

So Lemieux WAS better than Gretzky. I knew it.

 

[eric71*]

So Lemieux WAS better than Gretzky. I knew it.

I didnt even know Gretz was lefty till now. Wow. I wish I was born early enough to watch those two play.

 

[nyrangers10]

I didnt even know Gretz was lefty till now. Wow. I wish I was born early enough to watch those two play.

so your 10?

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Forever amazed and puzzled that posters clump LHS and RHS centers together and compare them as apples to apples.

Scouts recognize the difference when evaluating talent.Coaches do this when creating lines, for face-offs, defensive match-ups,power play selection, etc.GM when drafting and trading - equal talent take the RHS since a RHS center is harder to find. Players recognize the difference when playing stickside, on face-offs etc.

Yet this distinction is rarely considered on the history board.

It's been hypothesized in here before that the reason the RW position has been better historically than the LW position is due to the fact that there are more left-shooting centermen. A left-handed C will be more inclined to make a pass to his right as it is easier mechanically.

That being said, I think separating LHS and RHS centers is unnecessary. Players are judged by how they played the game and what they accomplished. Are you saying a RHS center should receive extra career credit due to scarcity?

I'll be honest, I really have no idea which way most of the great centers shot. Feel free do do some sort of analysis or study on it, I'd be curious to see if there's any sort of pattern.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Most Centers

It's been hypothesized in here before that the reason the RW position has been better historically than the LW position is due to the fact that there are more left-shooting centermen. A left-handed C will be more inclined to make a pass to his right as it is easier mechanically.

That being said, I think separating LHS and RHS centers is unnecessary. Players are judged by how they played the game and what they accomplished. Are you saying a RHS center should receive extra career credit due to scarcity?

I'll be honest, I really have no idea which way most of the great centers shot. Feel free do do some sort of analysis or study on it, I'd be curious to see if there's any sort of pattern.

Most centers, past and present, as well as other players shoot left.

Before curved sticks became the norm the difference was marginal since the backhand pass spread the defense. Today the defense tends to play the forehand pass since very few players can make a backhand pass or compensate for the mechanics.

The RW / LW debate. Not the point of the observation. Historically the vast majority of goalies have caught with their left hand. So the RW saw more net and was less vulnerable to the poke check by the goalie sweeping across or coming out of the corner. Hard pressed to name many RHS that played left wing but plenty LHS played RW - Maurice Richard,Yvan Cournoyer

The observation was made for a variety of reasons. Understanding certain skills. Amongst them. Playmaking. Was a center equally effective to both sides.Certain were, others were not. Defense. Certain centers have a hard time playing against RHS while others have a problem against LHS. Combinations. Why a coach plays certain wingers with certain centers.

Not saying that a RHS center should receive extra credit because of scarcity just recognizing the difference that a RHS center brings.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Forever amazed and puzzled that posters clump LHS and RHS centers together and compare them as apples to apples.

Scouts recognize the difference when evaluating talent.Coaches do this when creating lines, for face-offs, defensive match-ups,power play selection, etc.GM when drafting and trading - equal talent take the RHS since a RHS center is harder to find. Players recognize the difference when playing stickside, on face-offs etc.

Yet this distinction is rarely considered on the history board.

I don't see how this would change the evaluation of talent.

Besides, the descrepency for defensemen is even greater. The only right shooting Dmen to win the Norris Trophy have been Chelios, Blake and MacInnis.

 

[bohlmeister]

I didnt even know Gretz was lefty till now. Wow. I wish I was born early enough to watch those two play.

I remember watching Gretz with the Kings in 1993, against my Canadien's. (I was only 8 so I don't really remember that much) Most of Gretz that I remember was with the Rangers.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Difference

I don't see how this would change the evaluation of talent.

Besides, the descrepency for defensemen is even greater. The only right shooting Dmen to win the Norris Trophy have been Chelios, Blake and MacInnis.

Depends on how and why talent is being evaluated.Keeping it short the basic idea behind any evaluation is analyzing the optimum for each player. Recognizing the situations and reasons that give the player/team the best opportunity to be successful.

Face-off percentage. A center may be top five BUT if the opponents analyze the stats and see that he is only 20% against a LHS or a RHS center then guess what happens.

Apply this to various other scenarios and you will quickly see why it is important in evaluations. It often explains why certain centers have problems against certain opponents. Not all are equal when it comes to playing stick side on defense. Some have brain farts and forget to adjust for the difference LHS / RHS effectively leaving the opponent open when to the untrained eye he may seem covered.

Your point about RHS Dmen is very accurate which is why they have a greater value in many situations. Ideally the stick blade is against the boards in the defensive zone - easier to defend and easier to clear the puck. If a team does not have both LHS and RHS Dmen then they cannot flip them on the power play to get better vision of the ice with better passing and shooting lanes. Conversely a LHS Dman play right defense gets exposed very quickly if he is weak covering to his right side.

 

[greatgazoo]

Can anyone name a SC winning team that had more right handed centres than left?

Good luck!

 

[Tavaresmagicalplay*]

so your 10?

No he's 11. He caught them just in time.

 

[member 51464]

Any of you gentleman care to make a top 10 list of Left Handed and Right handed shot centers?

Would be interesting to see the final few to make the cut on both lists.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Software

Any of you gentleman care to make a top 10 list of Left Handed and Right handed shot centers?

Would be interesting to see the final few to make the cut on both lists.

Anyone with "spider" type software similar to and the willingness, to what PNEP uses can generate or add this designation from existing lists. not only for centers but other positions.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Depends on how and why talent is being evaluated.Keeping it short the basic idea behind any evaluation is analyzing the optimum for each player. Recognizing the situations and reasons that give the player/team the best opportunity to be successful.

Face-off percentage. A center may be top five BUT if the opponents analyze the stats and see that he is only 20% against a LHS or a RHS center then guess what happens.

Apply this to various other scenarios and you will quickly see why it is important in evaluations. It often explains why certain centers have problems against certain opponents. Not all are equal when it comes to playing stick side on defense. Some have brain farts and forget to adjust for the difference LHS / RHS effectively leaving the opponent open when to the untrained eye he may seem covered.

Your point about RHS Dmen is very accurate which is why they have a greater value in many situations. Ideally the stick blade is against the boards in the defensive zone - easier to defend and easier to clear the puck. If a team does not have both LHS and RHS Dmen then they cannot flip them on the power play to get better vision of the ice with better passing and shooting lanes. Conversely a LHS Dman play right defense gets exposed very quickly if he is weak covering to his right side.

I can see your point in terms of coaching and even putting together a team. Certainly there are factors in team play that are absent from analysis of individual players here. But I still don't see how your original statement applies:

"Forever amazed and puzzled that posters clump LHS and RHS centers together and compare them as apples to apples."

Still seems insignificant to me when comparing Gretz to Mario, Clarke to Mikita, Sakic to Yzerman, Keon to Richard, Trottier to Dionne, etc.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Examples

I can see your point in terms of coaching and even putting together a team. Certainly there are factors in team play that are absent from analysis of individual players here. But I still don't see how your original statement applies:

"Forever amazed and puzzled that posters clump LHS and RHS centers together and compare them as apples to apples."

Still seems insignificant to me when comparing Gretz to Mario, Clarke to Mikita, Sakic to Yzerman, Keon to Richard, Trottier to Dionne, etc.

Looking at playmaking skills. Example Adam Oates a RHS was equally adept at feeding left and right wingers Hull and Neely respectively while Jacques Lemaire a LHS was equally adept at feeding both wingers Shutt and Lafleur. Others may have tended to be strong to only one side.So it impacts on the evaluation of overall play making skills.

How a center does offensively when checked by a RHS or LHS center? Was his PPG impacted significantly?

 

[eric71*]

so your 10?

16. I didnt watch alot of hockey till I turned about 8 or 9, when I started playing it. When I was real little I watched it a little with my parents, but I can barely remember those days anyways

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Looking at playmaking skills. Example Adam Oates a RHS was equally adept at feeding left and right wingers Hull and Neely respectively while Jacques Lemaire a LHS was equally adept at feeding both wingers Shutt and Lafleur. Others may have tended to be strong to only one side.So it impacts on the evaluation of overall play making skills.

How a center does offensively when checked by a RHS or LHS center? Was his PPG impacted significantly?

As an example, you use a LHS and RHS center who both can pass to either side equally. They are comparable. So left or right shooting is not factor. That's my point.

 

[pnep]

Anyone with "spider" type software similar to and the willingness, to what PNEP uses can generate or add this designation from existing lists. not only for centers but other positions.

L

Center -- NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
=========================
Gretzky Wayne -- 7505.20
Beliveau Jean -- 4055.50
Esposito Phil -- 3989.00
Messier Mark -- 2826.00
Morenz Howie -- 2612.00
Sakic Joe -- 2291.00
Trottier Bryan -- 2232.50
Boucher Frank -- 2126.00
Clarke Bobby -- 2073.00
Stewart Nels -- 1966.50

R

Center -- NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
=========================
Lemieux Mario -- 4250.00
Mikita Stan -- 3402.00
Dionne Marcel -- 2053.00
Yzerman Steve -- 2027.50
Nighbor Frank -- 1897.00
Richard Henri -- 1857.50
Kennedy Ted -- 1627.50
Lalonde Newsy -- 1388.50
Lindros Eric -- 1149.00
Smith Hooley -- 1114.00

 

[Canadiens1958]

Thanks

L

Center -- NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
=========================
Gretzky Wayne -- 7505.20
Beliveau Jean -- 4055.50
Esposito Phil -- 3989.00
Messier Mark -- 2826.00
Morenz Howie -- 2612.00
Sakic Joe -- 2291.00
Trottier Bryan -- 2232.50
Boucher Frank -- 2126.00
Clarke Bobby -- 2073.00
Stewart Nels -- 1966.50

R

Center -- NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
=========================
Lemieux Mario -- 4250.00
Mikita Stan -- 3402.00
Dionne Marcel -- 2053.00
Yzerman Steve -- 2027.50
Nighbor Frank -- 1897.00
Richard Henri -- 1857.50
Kennedy Ted -- 1627.50
Lalonde Newsy -- 1388.50
Lindros Eric -- 1149.00
Smith Hooley -- 1114.00

Thanks PNEP

 

[Canadiens1958]

Point

As an example, you use a LHS and RHS center who both can pass to either side equally. They are comparable. So left or right shooting is not factor. That's my point.

The example shows that it is possible to pass equally well to both sides regardless. Before a skill or a characteristic can be evaluated it has to be determined that it is possible.The Oates / Lemaire example did this.

Example baseball players - hitters and pitchers are classified as R or L because it is possible to do both with a high degree of proficiency. On the other hand certain positions - like third base and shortstop are impossible to play with the required proficiency for a left hand throwing player since the game is counter clockwise. Hitters are rated on their performance against lefty and righty pitchers, etc.

You left out the cannot part of the explanation and the inability to overcome poor mechanics, positioning, ice vision. All of this may be evaluated.

Likewise a center's PPG or +/- numbers may be examined to determine if playing against a RHS or LHS made a difference.Henri Richard could play equally well against both while Saku Koivu has problems against RHS.

 

[arrbez]

L

Center -- NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
=========================
Gretzky Wayne -- 7505.20
Beliveau Jean -- 4055.50
Esposito Phil -- 3989.00
Messier Mark -- 2826.00
Morenz Howie -- 2612.00
Sakic Joe -- 2291.00
Trottier Bryan -- 2232.50
Boucher Frank -- 2126.00
Clarke Bobby -- 2073.00
Stewart Nels -- 1966.50

R

Center -- NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
=========================
Lemieux Mario -- 4250.00
Mikita Stan -- 3402.00
Dionne Marcel -- 2053.00
Yzerman Steve -- 2027.50
Nighbor Frank -- 1897.00
Richard Henri -- 1857.50
Kennedy Ted -- 1627.50
Lalonde Newsy -- 1388.50
Lindros Eric -- 1149.00
Smith Hooley -- 1114.00

A little off topic, but do you have this list for defensemen? Elite right-handed defenders seem to be very scarce, for some reason.

 

[member 51464]

L

Center -- NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
=========================
Gretzky Wayne -- 7505.20
Beliveau Jean -- 4055.50
Esposito Phil -- 3989.00
Messier Mark -- 2826.00
Morenz Howie -- 2612.00
Sakic Joe -- 2291.00
Trottier Bryan -- 2232.50
Boucher Frank -- 2126.00
Clarke Bobby -- 2073.00
Stewart Nels -- 1966.50

R

Center -- NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
=========================
Lemieux Mario -- 4250.00
Mikita Stan -- 3402.00
Dionne Marcel -- 2053.00
Yzerman Steve -- 2027.50
Nighbor Frank -- 1897.00
Richard Henri -- 1857.50
Kennedy Ted -- 1627.50
Lalonde Newsy -- 1388.50
Lindros Eric -- 1149.00
Smith Hooley -- 1114.00

Thanks pnep. That is pretty cool. What are all the components of "HHOF points"? I only ask because it would be fun to see where certain specific players stack up and how they are looking in a historical context

 

[pnep]

A little off topic, but do you have this list for defensemen? Elite right-handed defenders seem to be very scarce, for some reason.

L

DEF| NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
Ray "Bubba" Bourque|4066.00
Bobby "Number Four" Orr|3654.95
Doug "Dallying Doug" Harvey|3353.15
Nicklas "Lidas" Lidstrom|2878.95
Red "Cornflakes" Kelly|2410.50 *
Paul "Coff" Coffey|2276.95
Denis "Baby Bear" Potvin|2189.35
Francis "King" Clancy|2134.35
George "Buck" Boucher|2097.40
Pierre "The Bantam Bouncer" Pilote|2074.70

R

DEF| NHL "HHOF Monitor" PTS
Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore|3506.80
Chris "Cheli" Chelios|2121.45
Al "Chopper" Macinnis|1781.95
Earl "SI" Seibert|1602.95
Butch "The Big Beekeeper" Bouchard|1461.05
Tim "Superman" Horton|1427.15
Harry "Cammie" Cameron|1317.85
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper|1286.75 *
Sylvio Mantha|1249.55
Larry "Murphs" Murphy|985.25

* - DEF Seasons Only
​

 

[pnep]

Thanks pnep. That is pretty cool. What are all the components of "HHOF points"? I only ask because it would be fun to see where certain specific players stack up and how they are looking in a historical context

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=276125

 

[member 51464]

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=276125

You are a beast. Any plans to list that in updated form since it has been a few seasons?

Or maybe just a list of any currently active players that have moved up a lot?