Lecavalier Div. Semifinals: Brockville Invincibles vs West Lafayette Lion Tamers

Theokritos

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part-view-of-brockville-ca1840-by-holloway.jpg

Brockville Invincibles
A team in the 1st pro hockey league, the FHL (1908)

GMs: Namba 17 & VanIslander

coach Punch Imlach

Toe Blake (C) - Frank Nighbor - Boris Mikhailov
Tom Phillips (A) - Jean Ratelle - Mike Gartner
Esa Tikkanen - Jacques Lemaire - Rick Middleton
Red Berenson - Marty Walsh - Blair Russel
Rusty Crawford, Victor Shalimov, Jack Darragh

Moose Johnson - Brad Park
Leo Boivin (A) - Joe Simpson
Ulf Samuelsson - Jiri Bubla
Jerry Korab

Billy Smith
Harry Lumley

PP1 - Ratelle - Gartner - Mikhailov - Boivin - Park
PP2 - Blake - Nighbor - Middleton - Simpson - Bubla

PK1 - Nighbor - Phillips - Johnson - Park
PK2 - Berenson - Tikkanen - Boivin - Samuelsson
 

Theokritos

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PP1:
Tim Kerr
Denis Savard - Gordie Howe
Guy Lapointe - Paul Kariya

PP2:
Syd Howe - Marty Barry - Cooney Weiland
Lester Patrick - Brent Seabrook

PK1:
Ken Mosdell - Bob Pulford
Scott Stevens - Jack Crawford

PK2:
Syd Howe - Cooney Weiland
Guy Lapointe - Brent Seabrook



Forward Minutes
Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Gordie Howe | 16 | 5 | 2 | 23
Syd Howe | 13 | 3 | 3 | 19
Paul Kariya | 14 | 5 | 0 |19
Marty Barry | 14 | 3 | 0 |17
Denis Savard | 12 | 4 | 0 | 16
Bob Pulford | 12 | 0 | 4 | 16
Cooney Weiland | 11 | 2 | 2 | 15
Dave Taylor | 12 | 0 | 0 | 12
Shane Doan | 12 | 0 | 0 | 12
Ken Mosdell | 8 | 0 | 3 | 11
Tim Kerr | 6 | 4 | 0 | 10
Ed Sandford | 7 | 0 | 0 | 7
TOTAL | 138 | 26* | 14 | 177*

Defensemen Minutes
Player | ES | PP | PK | Total
Scott Stevens | 20 | 0 | 4 | 24
Guy Lapointe | 17 | 4 | 2 | 23
Lester Patrick | 17 | 3 | 0 | 20
Jack Crawford | 16 | 0 | 4 | 20
Glen Harmon | 11 | 0 | 1 | 13
Brent Seabrook | 11 | 2 | 3 | 16
TOTAL | 92 | 9* | 14 | 115*
*Kariya 5 minutes PP point
 

BenchBrawl

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Very strong match-up for a 1st round.I think I ranked these two teams 1-2 within the division but maybe my memory is playing tricks on me.

Brockville has a better 1st pairing IMO, but I really like Moose Johnson.OTOH, Brockville's 2nd pairing is not even close to Lafayette's.

At first glance,I prefer each of Brockville's first three lines, but each of those preferences is very small, so don't take that the wrong way.

Lafayette has a very big edge in coaching and goaltending.
 
Last edited:

markrander87

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I know Stoneberg and I are both looking forward to this matchup. We feel as though this is the strongest team either of us have ever built.

Right off the bat I need to question the toughness of the offensive Corp of Brockville. They are exactly the type of team we can push around and win those puck battles against. Also as already posted out the biggest advantage for any team is our goaltending. Some may view this is a tight series and we have the goalie who will be able to steal a game or two.
 

Stoneberg

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Ah well, Mark and I were too busy to coordinate votes the past week and it looks like it may have hurt us. Frankly, we expected this as a potential divisional final matchup as well. We are geared up and ready to go though...

Good luck to VanI and Namba, fantastic team you guys have put together!

Goaltending
Best place to start appears to be West Lafayette’s biggest advantage, and the biggest advantage of either team in the series – between the pipes. Jacques Plante is so much better than Billy Smith I don’t even think it’s worth wasting time discussing. With Brockville being a more defensively oriented team without an explosive offense I think that this advantage should be amplified in this series.

Coaching
Chalk up another big advantage to West Lafayette in the coaching department. Patrick is a consensus top 5 coach. He’s creative and versatile enough to make the necessary adjustments throughout this playoff series. While I think Imlach has become underrated in recent drafts, he’s still a few tiers below Lester.

Leadership
Both teams certainly aren’t lacking anything in the leadership department.

1st lines
I prefer to compare lines in order of best to worst player as opposed to by position in some cases (especially with top lines) as I think it paints a clearer picture when evaluating.

I love Brockville’s top line but Gordie Howe is by far the best player on either team, basically the ideal hockey player. The gap between him and Nighbor in almost every department except defensively, especially offensively, is very significant. Toe Blake is clearly better than Kariya in every aspect but offensively I think they’re on a similar level in the ATD. Mikhailov again is clearly better than Barry in most aspects of the game but, again, I’d question how significant the offensive gap actually is, or even whether Barry is actually the better offensive player of the two? Barry’s vsX scores ( 7: 89.6 / 10: 81.8) put him slightly above Toe Blake offensively as well so take from that what you will.

Overall: I’d call these lines close to a wash thanks in large part to Gordie’s star power. Offensively I think West Lafayette has a clear advantage, and our trio fits very well together from a chemistry perspective. Defensively and intangibles-wise I Brockville certainly comes out ahead, but Howe and Barry certainly won’t be pushed around.

2nd lines
Both lines built around star (for 2nd lines) LWers. Howe is better offensively, Phillips probably better defensively depending on how you value those UH honors - close enough to a wash but I prefer Howe and think he’s underrated heavily due to his multi-positional use in his playing days. Ratelle and Savard are in the same tier of 2nd line centers but Ratelle is at the upper end of that tier due to being a better all around player, despite being soft. Taylor and Gartner are in a similar tier as well – Gartner being more of a finesse goal scorer and Taylor more of a well rounded offensive player with substantially more grit and defensive ability.

Overall: I’d call this close enough to be a wash again but realize I probably value Syd Howe higher than most – either way there’s no significant advantage for either team here. Brockville has a slight advantage in the defensive department I think offensively they’re even and West Lafayette’s line is not as soft.

3rd lines
Pulford is better in every aspect than Tikanen except agitation, and clearly. Lemaire and Weiland are both great centers for 2 way 3rd lines - Offensively they’re probably a wash if not slight advantage Weiland, but Lemaire has the advantage from a defensive/intangible perspective. Middleton is better offensively and defensively than Doan and Doan has a clear advantage in the physicality/intangibles department and is still a solid offensive 3rd liner and certainly not a liability defensively at the ATD level.

Overall: Looks like another wash to me.

4th lines
Both solid enough, neither will provide a significant ES advantage.

1st pairings
Park is the best defenseman on either team and certainly better than Stevens. While I do think Lapointe is clearly better than Johnson it’s not enough to bridge the gap between the #1 defensemen. Both pairings have a great stylistic fit from a chemistry perspective – advantage Brockville.

2nd pairings
Another one of West Lafayette’s big advantages. Both Patrick and Crawford are substantially better than Boivin and Simpson – and I don’t really think it’s close either. Both Lion Tamers could be considered good to strong (Patrick) #3D at this level while both of Brockville’s are better served as #4’s. Again both pairings seem to have a good fit from a chemistry perspective, both of Brockville’s are LHD but I think Simpson is skilled enough to handle his off-side – big advantage West Lafayette regardless.

3rd pairings
Harmon is the best defenseman on either third pairing and I don’t think Seabrook is any worse than Brockville's two – minor advantage for West Lafayette but probably won’t amount to much with limited minutes.

PP1
This appears to be another massive advantage for West Lafayette. Gordie Howe alone is probably better than the best 2 PP weapons up front on Brockville’s first unit. Tim Kerr is a top 10 PP weapon and also probably more dangerous than any of Brockville’s PP1 forwards. Park as the QB is the only one who stands out as strong-ish for a PP1 and I think the argument is there that he’s not substantially better than Lapointe as a PPQB. Boivin and Gartner especially jump out as very weak for an ATD PP1. Huge advantage for West Lafayette.

PP2
Blake and Nighbor are great for a 2nd PP unit but I don’t think they have a huge offensive advantage over S. Howe and Barry. Middleton is noted as a good PP performer but Weiland appears to be a better offensive player. Lester Patrick is one of the strongest aspects for the Lion Tamer’s second unit, and Simpson stands out as a solid PP2 QB as well. Overall these seem pretty close to a wash, maybe slight advantage to Brockville until we factor in that Howe, Kariya and Kerr have had their minutes managed well enough to each more than half of the PP.

PK1
Nighbor and Phillips is fantastic up front, Pulford is certainly on their level from a PK perspective but Mosdell is slightly below. In terms of PKing West Lafayette has one of the better PK1 pairings in the draft, Stevens is elite and Crawford is very good and both are playing on their correct sides. Park/Johnson is a strong PK unit as well though I’d like to see an estimate of Park’s minutes as he’s on all of the first units. Overall I’d call this almost even, Brockville with better forwards and West Lafayette a better PK pairing.

PK2
Both seem solid at first glance, West Lafayette maybe with better forwards and probably with better defensemen carried by Lapointe. Maybe slight advantage Lion Tamers but not substantial.

Then of course we have to factor in the most important PKer, Plante, who vaults West Lafayette’s PK units to a clear advantage over Brockville.

Summary
In summary I think these are the factors that should win West Lafayette the series:

1. Goaltending – Plante is way better than Smith and that advantage is amplified by the fact that Brockville doesn’t really have an explosive offense in addition to their weak PP1. With better top end offensive players I think the Lion Tamers should be able to expose Smith.

2. Gordie Howe – Brockville just doesn’t have the star power to answer for Gordie, his dynamic offensive ability will surely make a huge difference.

3. 2nd Pairings – Both personel on West Lafayette’s 2nd pairing are better than either member of Brockville’s – this advantage should grow as the series goes on and Park is worn down playing both top special team units in addition to top pairing minutes.

4. Special teams – Largely driven by West Lafayette’s huge advantage in first PP units as well as Plante pushing our overall PK group over the top.

5. Coaching – Not much to be said here, expect Patrick to out-coach Imlach.
 

Iceman

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Not to be an absolute d**k but do you think we are that stupid and uninterested that we look at the first 2-3 names when we vote so you placed Plante at the top?
 

markrander87

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Jan 22, 2010
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Not to be an absolute d**k but do you think we are that stupid and uninterested that we look at the first 2-3 names when we vote so you placed Plante at the top?

Have you ever filled out a game sheet before for a hockey team? Look up a teams depth chart and see the goaltenders listed first. with the historic undervaluing of elite goaltenders in the ATD we felt we would follow the above and have him front and center.
 

ResilientBeast

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Have you ever filled out a game sheet before for a hockey team? Look up a teams depth chart and see the goaltenders listed first. with the historic undervaluing of elite goaltenders in the ATD we felt we would follow the above and have him front and center.

So yes? :laugh:
 

monster_bertuzzi

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Have you ever filled out a game sheet before for a hockey team? Look up a teams depth chart and see the goaltenders listed first. with the historic undervaluing of elite goaltenders in the ATD we felt we would follow the above and have him front and center.

Doing it the normal way wouldn't have made me notice him any less!
 

Namba 17

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May 9, 2011
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I am on some business trip away from my PC, so, I may add some information later.
First of all, congratulations to Markrander87 and Stoneberg, great job guys! I can tell, that I ranked your team very high.
Other thoughts:
Please, pay attention, that it's play-off time now. So, please, don't estimate the teams by their regular season's ability! Off course, I'm biased here, but I don't see any team, that can match our play-off's performers group.
Let's see. We have:
Toe Blake, who has retro Conn Smythe, when he had two points per game which went untouched until Wayne Gretzky. His other play-offs records are:
Playoff Goals- 6th(1938), 6th (1943), 3rd(1944), 1st(1946)
Playoff Assists- 9th(1941), 10th(1943), 1st (1944), 2nd(1946),1st(1947)
Playoff Points- 9th (1943), 1st(1944), 2nd(1946), 2nd (1947)
Frank Nighbour, who led playoffs in goals once ('20), and twice in assists ('15, '21) and points ('15, '21). In 19 Stanley Cup finals games, Nighbor scored 20p.
Nighbor retired 3rd all time in NHL playoff scoring.
We don't know how Mikhailov would have played in play-offs, but we know that:
a) he was unbelievably stable goal-scorer, who scored against any opponent
b) he was always prized for his hard-working
c) he is known as player, who scored ugly goals
d) he is known as a player, who stepped up big moments.
So, considering, that play-off is all about hard-working and ugly goals, I believe, he will bee good in play-off
Tom Phillips was Stanley Cup Challenge leading scorer twice
Ratelle was 3x Top 9 Playoff Goals(2, 4, 9)
3x Top 9 Playoff Assists(3, 7, 9)
3x Top 7 Playoff Points(4, 5, 7)
Tikkanen in the postseason was one of the best over an 8-year stretch (almost all of those years post-Getzky) scoring 100 playoff points, scoring 52 goals, one less than Neely and three less than playoff leaders over that 8-year stretch Lemieux and Messier (!!). He also scored four playoff OT goals over that stretch!
Lemaire was four times Top 5 in NHL Playoff points (1st: 1979, 3rd: 1977, 4th: 1973, 5th: 1971)
6x Top 10 in Playoffs Goals (1968 (3), 1971 (6), 1973 (6), 1977 (5), 1978 (8), 1979 (1))
6x Top 10 in Playoffs Assists (1968 (10), 1971 (7), 1973 (4), 1977 (3), 1978 (9), 1979 (3)
He also scored 3 playoff overtime goal in his career and is only one of five players to have scored two game winning clinching Stanley Cup goals.
Middleton has 100 points in 114 career playoff games, including a monstrous 33 points in 17 games during 82-83.
During his big 1983 run, Middleton set the record for most points in a single playoff series with 19 against Buffalo.
Walsh was Stanley Cup Scoring Leader with 13 of his team's 20 goals (1911)
- 2nd In Stanley Cup Scoring (1910)
Darragh has two retro Conn Smythe and is known as clutch performer.
And don't forget, that despise being comparatively weak regular goalie, Smith is one of the best play-off goaltenders, who has Smythe too.
 

Stoneberg

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I am on some business trip away from my PC, so, I may add some information later.
First of all, congratulations to Markrander87 and Stoneberg, great job guys! I can tell, that I ranked your team very high.
Other thoughts:
Please, pay attention, that it's play-off time now. So, please, don't estimate the teams by their regular season's ability! Off course, I'm biased here, but I don't see any team, that can match our play-off's performers group.
Conveniently enough I think we have a better group of playoff performers.
Namba said:
Let's see. We have:
Toe Blake, who has retro Conn Smythe, when he had two points per game which went untouched until Wayne Gretzky. His other play-offs records are:
Playoff Goals- 6th(1938), 6th (1943), 3rd(1944), 1st(1946)
Playoff Assists- 9th(1941), 10th(1943), 1st (1944), 2nd(1946),1st(1947)
Playoff Points- 9th (1943), 1st(1944), 2nd(1946), 2nd (1947)
Gordie Howe - Pretty much eclipses your top few guys on his own, to be honest.
Play-off Points – 1st(1949), 1st(1952), 1st(1955), 1st(1961), 1st(1963) 1st(1964), 2nd(1956), 4th(1954), 4th(1966), 6th(1951), 8th(1957), 8th(1960), 9th(1953)
Play-off Goals - 1st(1949), 1st(1955), 1st(1964), 2nd(1963), 3rd(1951), 3rd(1961), 4th(1954), 6th(1965), 6th(1966), 7th(1952), 9th(1956), 9th(1957)
Play-off Assists - 1st(1952), 2nd(1955), 2nd(1956), 2nd(1961), 2nd(1963), 2nd(1964), 4th(1953), 4th(1954), 4th(1966), 5th(1960), 7th(1951),7th(1957), 8th(1949)

Certainly would have been good for a few Smythe's had the trophy existed.
Namba said:
Frank Nighbour, who led playoffs in goals once ('20), and twice in assists ('15, '21) and points ('15, '21). In 19 Stanley Cup finals games, Nighbor scored 20p.
Nighbor retired 3rd all time in NHL playoff scoring.
Syd Howe was top 10 in playoff scoring 6 times and retired (many years later than Nighbor) 2nd on the all-time playoff scoring list.
Namba said:
We don't know how Mikhailov would have played in play-offs, but we know that:
a) he was unbelievably stable goal-scorer, who scored against any opponent
b) he was always prized for his hard-working
c) he is known as player, who scored ugly goals
d) he is known as a player, who stepped up big moments.
So, considering, that play-off is all about hard-working and ugly goals, I believe, he will bee good in play-off
I agree Mikhailov would be a good playoff performer, but would he be as good as Marty Barry was? Barry is praised as a clutch player, twice leading the playoffs in scoring and registering 17 points in 17 games leading Detroit to back to back Stanley Cup wins in 1936-37.
Namba said:
Tom Phillips was Stanley Cup Challenge leading scorer twice
Lester Patrick was a seasoned and accomplished Stanley Cup finalist, winning the Cup twice (06, 07) and playing in the finals 5 more times (04, 08, 14, 18, 26). He was second in scoring in 1907. His Cup final play is heavily praised in various quotes in his linked bio.
Namba said:
Ratelle was 3x Top 9 Playoff Goals(2, 4, 9)
3x Top 9 Playoff Assists(3, 7, 9)
3x Top 7 Playoff Points(4, 5, 7)
Denis Savard was also known for stepping his game up in the playoffs scoring 175 points in 169 playoff games, including 147 points in 120 games between 82-92.
Namba said:
Tikkanen in the postseason was one of the best over an 8-year stretch (almost all of those years post-Getzky) scoring 100 playoff points, scoring 52 goals, one less than Neely and three less than playoff leaders over that 8-year stretch Lemieux and Messier (!!). He also scored four playoff OT goals over that stretch!
Bob Pulford has a retro Conn Smythe (1964), he was a clutch player who was known to elevate his offensive game in the playoffs.
Play-off Points - 3rd(1967), 8th(1959), 9th(1963), 10th(1962), 11th(1960), 11th(1964)
Play-off Goals - 2nd(1962), 3rd(1960), 4th(1964), 7th(1959)
Play-off Assists - 1st(1967), 8th(1963)
Namba said:
Lemaire was four times Top 5 in NHL Playoff points (1st: 1979, 3rd: 1977, 4th: 1973, 5th: 1971)
6x Top 10 in Playoffs Goals (1968 (3), 1971 (6), 1973 (6), 1977 (5), 1978 (8), 1979 (1))
6x Top 10 in Playoffs Assists (1968 (10), 1971 (7), 1973 (4), 1977 (3), 1978 (9), 1979 (3)
He also scored 3 playoff overtime goal in his career and is only one of five players to have scored two game winning clinching Stanley Cup goals.
Not much needs to be said about Scott Stevens in the playoffs. He might be our second best playoff performer with a Conn Smythe in addition to captaining his team to 3 Stanley Cups.
Namba=[B said:
Middleton[/B] has 100 points in 114 career playoff games, including a monstrous 33 points in 17 games during 82-83.
During his big 1983 run, Middleton set the record for most points in a single playoff series with 19 against Buffalo.
Guy Lapointe shares the Canadiens playoff record of 25 goals by a defenseman with Larry Robinson, as well as being second all time in playoff points by a Habs blueliner.
Namba said:
Walsh was Stanley Cup Scoring Leader with 13 of his team's 20 goals (1911)
- 2nd In Stanley Cup Scoring (1910)
Cooney Weiland led the playoffs in points twice (including a first place finish in assists one year and goals another).
Namba said:
Darragh has two retro Conn Smythe and is known as clutch performer.
Ed Sandford has a retro Smythe (1953) where he led all scorers in the postseason (goals and points). The year prior he was 8th in points, 7th in goals and 10th in assists. A few years earlier he had another 8th in assists.
Namba said:
And don't forget, that despise being comparatively weak regular goalie, Smith is one of the best play-off goaltenders, who has Smythe too.
Jacques Plante has a retro Smythe (1960) and led the playoffs in save percentage 4 times. Oh yes, he also has 6 Cups.

All of that being said, just because it’s ATD playoffs certainly doesn’t mean that only playoff achievements should be used in evaluating teams – and I know that isn't the case, of course. We do like how our team stacks up in terms of playoff performers anyway though.
 

markrander87

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Jan 22, 2010
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Oh wow....What he said ^^^^^^ :laugh:

Tough to add anything else to that in terms of our players being tried and true playoff performers.

As Stoneberg has asked for above, are we going to get a minutes chart for Brockville, in particular Brad Park. He is certainly being leaned on quite heavily for ES,PP and PK minutes. On top of this he is on his off side. All 4 of Brockvilles top 4 D are Left hand shots.
 

seventieslord

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Mar 16, 2006
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Since there's already a good deal of chatter about whose team is better at playoff scoring, I thought I'd share the 5-year playoff VsX for all forwards. A lot of lower end top-10 finishes are being thrown around and it's worth a mention that some of those aren't that great if the leader had 9 points and you were 6th with 4. It's something, yes, but not a lot. Playoff VsX hopes to cut through that, to some degree, by caring more about quantities than ranking. There's a ton of prolific playoff scorers here.

Brockville:

466 - 432 - XXX
218 - 328 - 211
296 - 485 - 308
205 - 292 - 0

West Lafayette:

178 - 429 - 683
377 - 412 - 147
286 - 336 - 121
240 - 196 - 234

The guys in bold are the 5 best on each team. Both have 5 with 300+. Both have 3 with 400+. But only one has Gordie Howe.
 

Stoneberg

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Nov 10, 2005
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Since there's already a good deal of chatter about whose team is better at playoff scoring, I thought I'd share the 5-year playoff VsX for all forwards. A lot of lower end top-10 finishes are being thrown around and it's worth a mention that some of those aren't that great if the leader had 9 points and you were 6th with 4. It's something, yes, but not a lot. Playoff VsX hopes to cut through that, to some degree, by caring more about quantities than ranking. There's a ton of prolific playoff scorers here.

Brockville:

466 - 432 - XXX
218 - 328 - 211
296 - 485 - 308
205 - 292 - 0

West Lafayette:

178 - 429 - 683
377 - 412 - 147
286 - 336 - 121
240 - 196 - 234

The guys in bold are the 5 best on each team. Both have 5 with 300+. Both have 3 with 400+. But only one has Gordie Howe.
Thanks. Gotta love Gordie.

Since we're on the topic, I noticed that none of Brockville's defensemen were brought up in terms of playoff excellence so I'd like to hear a bit more on their postseason resumes as well. The Lion Tamers boast a group of very strong playoff performing blueliners - most notably Stevens, Lapointe and Patrick but also, to a lesser extent, Seabrook. Moose Johnson obviously jumps out at me as a playoff stud, but I'm more curious about Park, Simpson and Boivin specifically.
 

overpass

Registered User
Jun 7, 2007
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Oh wow....What he said ^^^^^^ :laugh:

Tough to add anything else to that in terms of our players being tried and true playoff performers.

As Stoneberg has asked for above, are we going to get a minutes chart for Brockville, in particular Brad Park. He is certainly being leaned on quite heavily for ES,PP and PK minutes. On top of this he is on his off side. All 4 of Brockvilles top 4 D are Left hand shots.

Where are you getting Joe Simpson as a LHS? Wikipedia has him shooting right with a picture to support it.

Also, Brad Park had a great NHL career playing the right side so the ATD should be more of the same for him.
 

Hawkey Town 18

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Jun 29, 2009
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The picture in VI's bio makes him look like a LHS, but all of the other images that come up with a quick google search show him as a RHS, and from my memory he's always been thought of as a RHS in previous ATD's
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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The picture in VI's bio makes him look like a LHS, but all of the other images that come up with a quick google search show him as a RHS, and from my memory he's always been thought of as a RHS in previous ATD's

He's a RHD as far as I can tell from all the WCHL game logs I've read
 

markrander87

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Jan 22, 2010
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The picture in VI's bio makes him look like a LHS, but all of the other images that come up with a quick google search show him as a RHS, and from my memory he's always been thought of as a RHS in previous ATD's

Yeah thats where I looked and saw the Left hand shot from the picture. Regardless, our biggest concern is how heavily Brockville is going to rely on Park playing on the 1st unit of everything on top of (I imagine) being tasked with trying to shut down Howe as well.
 

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