Leafs Salary cap discussions

[Ricky Bobby]

no your supposed to do this when there is something you don't like to hear about this team

4 more years of Bozo and Lups but you know that does not mean they are core, because umm they are just umm, well ahhhhh hrmmmm. la la la la la

Lupul will be traded before the end of his contract.

Bozak makes a fair salary for what he brings to the table. That is # 4/5 forward on the depth chart type money but will soon be # 5/6 depth chart type money once salaries continue to rise around the league. Not sure why he'd be viewed as a problem.

Clarkson is simply a terrible contract.

Cores can change a heck of a lot in just a few short seasons. Not that long ago our "core" involved names like CMac, Grabo, Schenn, Connolly, Komisarek, Beauchemin, Liles, Armstrong, Versteeg, Reimer, Kaberle. All of these names will have moved on within just over a 3 year period.

 

[Stephen]

The leafs actually have the third lowest averaged calculated aged team. they certainly don't have one of the youngest teams in the league. Toronto is a statistical anomaly because "average" is a poor statistical measure because outliers dramatically influence results.

Tthere's more than a handful of teams that rely on far more under 23 year old players than toronto does and they do better. imagine that.

I agree, but I have to add.

The Leafs youth isn't a positive in that they have a series of Morgan Rielly type prospects just ready to blossom with experience, but they are a youthful team in the sense that they have a complete leadership void with virtually no one on the roster over the age of 30 who has accomplished anything in this league.

The team doesn't possess boundless potential, but they do need a babysitter.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Lupul will be traded before the end of his contract.

Bozak makes a fair salary for what he brings to the table. That is # 4/5 forward on the depth chart type money but will soon be # 5/6 depth chart type money once salaries continue to rise around the league. Not sure why he'd be viewed as a problem.

Clarkson is simply a terrible contract.

Cores can change a heck of a lot in just a few short seasons. Not that long ago our "core" involved names like CMac, Grabo, Schenn, Connolly, Komisarek, Beauchemin, Liles, Armstrong, Versteeg, Reimer, Kaberle. All of these names will have moved on within just over a 3 year period.

Not all of those guys were considered core guys. Kaberle was on his way out from day 1 when Burke arrived, he was even on his way out before that so not really a core guy.

Cmac, Connolly, Armstrong, Versteeg was also never considered core guys.

Grabo was an important player but never a core piece, he was never some one we tried to build around or adjust things for.

Komi and Beauchemin was probably considered to be core guys.

Schenn was definitely considered a core piece moving forward.


Edit: Ah, I see you said "core". I agree with your post btw.

 

[Faltorvo]

Joffrey Lupul ($5.250m) / Tyler Bozak ($4.200m) / Phil Kessel ($8.000m)
James Van Riemsdyk ($4.250m) / Nazem Kadri ($2.900m) / (need 1 more winger)

Peter Holland ($1.250m) / David Clarkson ($5.250m) (need 1 more 3rd liner)

Jerry D'Amigo ($1.000m) / Jay McClement ($1.500m) / Colton Orr ($0.925m)
Troy Bodie ($0.600m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Dion Phaneuf ($7.000m) /
Carl Gunnarsson ($3.150m) / Morgan Rielly ($0.894m)
Jake Gardiner ($2.750m) / Paul Ranger ($1.000m)
Tim Gleason ($4.000m) / (need 1 more Dman to replace Franson)
GOALTENDERS
Jonathan Bernier ($2.900m)
(need a back up goalie which can added for under 2 million)
BUYOUTS
Mike Komisarek ($0.000m)
Mikhail Grabovski ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $69,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $56,819,167; BONUSES: $850,000
CAP SPACE (18-man roster): $12,180,833

D'Amigo, Holland, McClement, Bodie, Gardiner I took guesses for what I think they'll make.

-1 top 6 forward spot to fill (Bolland holds the key here. I'm calling him a top 6 because he'd be in our top 6 TOI even if he centers the 3rd line)
-1 3rd line forward spot to fill (could be taken by a youngster at a cheap price but I'd like to see us try for a cheap vet like a Morrow, Raymond, Penner no risk 1 year deal)
-23rd man (team can always roll with a 22 man roster on this spot would be taken by a player under a million)
1 #4/5 Dman spot to fill (2 to 3.5 range on a short term deal for a guy like Salo, Mitchell, Robidas, Stralman, Hainsey)
1 back up goalie spot to fill (could be as cheap as league minimum up to around 2 million)

=Roughly 12 million to accomplish this

I don't think we're screwed with the cap for next off-season but we just won't see any big addition names addition unless you want to count Bolland as a big addition.

Bolland truly holds the key to what happens with our entire off-season. If Bolland is signed we don't have much flexibility cap wise but then we've got decent depth down the middle. I honestly wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Bolland was signed if Kadri was dealt shortly after and Holland given a chance to play his minutes.

Top pairing D
2nd line wing
3rd line C

and a tender that will start 20 ish games , that's pretty thin coin to make it work.

no one ever ever said we could not get 23 guys under bloody contract.

if you don't think having to take a step back because of your cap issues is not trouble, well ,then I don't know what to tell you.

a step back from 8th last to boot. but ya we are in ok cap space because we can at least ink 23 guys

 

[Faltorvo]

Lupul will be traded before the end of his contract.

Bozak makes a fair salary for what he brings to the table. That is # 4/5 forward on the depth chart type money but will soon be # 5/6 depth chart type money once salaries continue to rise around the league. Not sure why he'd be viewed as a problem.

Clarkson is simply a terrible contract.

Cores can change a heck of a lot in just a few short seasons. Not that long ago our "core" involved names like CMac, Grabo, Schenn, Connolly, Komisarek, Beauchemin, Liles, Armstrong, Versteeg, Reimer, Kaberle. All of these names will have moved on within just over a 3 year period.

stay on the track RB, the topic of conversation was, who are our core guys.

anyone inked to those terms and coin ARE part of your core.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

Top pairing D
2nd line wing
3rd line C

and a tender that will start 20 ish games , that's pretty thin coin to make it work.

no one ever ever said we could not get 23 guys under bloody contract.

if you don't think having to take a step back because of your cap issues is not trouble, well ,then I don't know what to tell you.

a step back from 8th last to boot. but ya we are in ok cap space because we can at least ink 23 guys

We have one top pairing Dman in Phaneuf. We have two other realistic candidates over coming seasons in Gardiner and Rielly.

Toronto won't be anything more than a playoff bubble team again next year barring some miracle.

Even if we did have 5 million more in cap space the free agent market sucks and we don't have the pick or prospect depth to get a good high cap hit player in a trade.

This cannot and will not be fixed in just one off-season. Priority # 1 for Nonis needs to be adding more assets in the 18-23 age range but that doesn't mean selling every one off this off-season just to have cap space to sign more UFAs to bad contracts.

Reimer is certaintly gone this off-season. Franson probably is as well. But trading out guys like Lupul, Gleason, Gunnarson probably won't come till next season where they could net higher returns than this off-season + buy our youngsters a bit more time to develop.

I fully support a retool but it can't all happen overnight.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

stay on the track RB, the topic of conversation was, who are our core guys.

anyone inked to those terms and coin ARE part of your core.

I simply don't view it that way.

I see Kessel, JVR, Phaneuf, Bozak as core pieces to build around and I believe management sees it that way as well.

I also believe Rielly + Bernier are viewed as core pieces long before secondary vets like Lupul or Clarkson. Gardiner + Kadri might also be in this category or might simply be top trade chips at some point.

Lupul, Gunnarson, Gleason are more placeholder types who should be recycled for extra picks/prospect before there contracts expire. All 3 of these guys could easily be traded next season if this team underperforms just like Beauchemin, Versteeg were traded with term still left on their contracts.

Clarkson we just need to do damage control on with that contract and ride it out for the time being. He can be traded down the road but we'd just have to minimize the damage we have to take back in return.

A lot can change in a few years.

 

[Faltorvo]

We have one top pairing Dman in Phaneuf. We have two other realistic candidates over coming seasons in Gardiner and Rielly.

Toronto won't be anything more than a playoff bubble team again next year barring some miracle.

Even if we did have 5 million more in cap space the free agent market sucks and we don't have the pick or prospect depth to get a good high cap hit player in a trade.

This cannot and will not be fixed in just one off-season. Priority # 1 for Nonis needs to be adding more assets in the 18-23 age range but that doesn't mean selling every one off this off-season just to have cap space to sign more UFAs to bad contracts.

Reimer is certaintly gone this off-season. Franson probably is as well. But trading out guys like Lupul, Gleason, Gunnarson probably won't come till next season where they could net higher returns than this off-season + buy our youngsters a bit more time to develop.

I fully support a retool but it can't all happen overnight.

This is not even a playoff bubble team , that is where you are making your biggest mistake.

Your building your strategy from a false base.

2nd last/9th last/5th last/8th last , you know those are the results from real NHL seasons, 82 games.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

A lot can change in a few years.

Except the stupid long term deals we've already made.
Anyone signed to more than 4 years is a part of the core.
Kadri is NOT a part of the core.
He's a part of your hope.

 

[Gallagbi]

Except the stupid long term deals we've already made.
Anyone signed to more than 4 years is a part of the core.
Kadri is NOT a part of the core.
He's a part of your hope.

Even if the Leafs actively try to move/dump them like Chicago did with Huet and Campbell after they won the cup in 2010?

 

[hotpaws]

Even if the Leafs actively try to move/dump them like Chicago did with Huet and Campbell after they won the cup in 2010?

You can't do what the Hawks did with Huet anymore , that loop hole has been closed .

 

[HoweHullOrr]

And lol at all of you comparing Patches to Kessel.

You ***** about offering players big deals based on good seasons, and then you cite a guy who's been good but who really only took off when Montreal picked up Vanek. Kessel is someone that's been improving everybody he plays with in the meantime. And now it's "imagine if we had Pacioretty". This is absolutely ****ing pathetic.

Pathetic? Leafs not being able to make the playoffs year after year after year. That's at the top of the pathetic scale. Let's not sugar coat it.

 

[diceman934]

I simply don't view it that way.

I see Kessel, JVR, Phaneuf, Bozak as core pieces to build around and I believe management sees it that way as well.

I also believe Rielly + Bernier are viewed as core pieces long before secondary vets like Lupul or Clarkson. Gardiner + Kadri might also be in this category or might simply be top trade chips at some point.

Lupul, Gunnarson, Gleason are more placeholder types who should be recycled for extra picks/prospect before there contracts expire. All 3 of these guys could easily be traded next season if this team underperforms just like Beauchemin, Versteeg were traded with term still left on their contracts.

Clarkson we just need to do damage control on with that contract and ride it out for the time being. He can be traded down the road but we'd just have to minimize the damage we have to take back in return.

A lot can change in a few years.

If management see that group as our core we are in trouble....No 1 center, no number 1 D man....that group is mostly secondary pieces. Even Kessel who is a great scoring winger is not a player you build around but a player you add when you are close to being a contender.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

We have to ink the most amount of contracts next season in the entire league and we have the 6th lowest (cap per contract) available in the league.

I don't like how those two things add up.

Fair enough, but to use the Montreal example the OP brought up.

*based on Capgeek projections

The Leafs have +/- 22M to sign 11 or +/- 2.0M per player

The Habs have +/- 27M to sign 8 or +/- 3.4M per player.

Difference being the Leafs need to sign/replace a backup goalie, 3rd/4th line forwards, and bottom pairing Dmen.

5 of the 8 Montreal needs to sign/replace include:

Vanek $5,750,000.00 (who knows)
Gionta $5,000,000.00 (modest raise expected)
Eller $1,325,000.00 (modest raise expected)
Markov $5,750,000.00 (modest raise expected)
Subban $2,875,000.00 (decent raise expected)

I think its debatable that Montreal is in a much better cap position.

So neither Montreal or the Leafs are in a great or enviable position then? Given that the Leafs need to fill so many slots with inexpensive contracts, this would be an ideal time for several of their prospects to step and make significant contributions. I guess we'll see how well that works out.

 

[Durrr]

If management see that group as our core we are in trouble....No 1 center, no number 1 D man....that group is mostly secondary pieces. Even Kessel who is a great scoring winger is not a player you build around but a player you add when you are close to being a contender.

Theres absolutely no reason to not be able to build around a sure thing offensive player. Much like how when we had Sundin, we needed a Kessel, and how a team like Chiacago added Kane. You need these players to win as well, the problem with the leafs is that they essentially stopped at Kessel, instead of continuing to add young high talent.

The problem was and never will be Kessel, it's the leafs organization who for some reason assumed one young top end winger (no matter how good, even if he was a 200 ft, physical player) was enough to start trying to make the post season (which is ****** why the leafs should have traded the Kadri pick and Kaberle for Kessel a year before and Kept the picks for when we bottomed out). One player is just NOT enough, so at least Rielly offers some extra hope for the future.

How good would this team look right now if we had 2 more top 10 draft picks on this team from 2010/11. Depending who we got, and assuming we still get JVR, Bernier, Rielly, Gardiner, Kessel, Dion; this team would be set up for success long term.

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Theres absolutely no reason to not be able to build around a sure thing offensive player. Much like how when we had Sundin, we needed a Kessel, and how a team like Chiacago added Kane. You need these players to win as well, the problem with the leafs is that they essentially stopped at Kessel, instead of continuing to add young high talent.

The problem was and never will be Kessel, it's the leafs organization who for some reason assumed one young top end winger (no matter how good, even if he was a 200 ft, physical player) was enough to start trying to make the post season (which is ****** why the leafs should have traded the Kadri pick and Kaberle for Kessel a year before and Kept the picks for when we bottomed out). One player is just NOT enough, so at least Rielly offers some extra hope for the future.

How good would this team look right now if we had 2 more top 10 draft picks on this team from 2010/11. Depending who we got, and assuming we still get JVR, Bernier, Rielly, Gardiner, Kessel, Dion; this team would be set up for success long term.

The problem is we stopped adding? How do you add young first line players to your team? You pick them at the draft. We gave up 2 first round picks to get Kessel, we could have saved those picks and picked 2 players instead.

If you are rebuilding and just redone your scouting and just started to care about what happens with the Marlies would it not be better to add two of the best from draft class 2010 and 2011 then one of the best from the 2006 draft class?

And no, you dont build around an offensive minded winger, you just dont. You dont pass up on him if he is the BPA on draft day but you dont go out of your way to get him either.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Bozak and JVR are the best caphits on the Leafs AINEC.

I don't see Kessel going anywhere, but if we can move Phaneuf, Lupul, Kadri and Gardiner(both RFA pending raises) we will be in good shape with upwards 22.3M in capspace.

 

[Faltorvo]

The problem is we stopped adding? How do you add young first line players to your team? You pick them at the draft. We gave up 2 first round picks to get Kessel, we could have saved those picks and picked 2 players instead.

If you are rebuilding and just redone your scouting and just started to care about what happens with the Marlies would it not be better to add two of the best from draft class 2010 and 2011 then one of the best from the 2006 draft class?

And no, you dont build around an offensive minded winger, you just dont. You dont pass up on him if he is the BPA on draft day but you dont go out of your way to get him either.

We lose 6 years, 6 years of growing/grooming and contract flexibility with Hamilton.

4 years with Seguin.

So here we are with less players , older player and a awesome 8m cap hit.

So our doomesday has been advanced and can now be heard ticking.

 

[Ricky Bobby]

This is not even a playoff bubble team , that is where you are making your biggest mistake.

Your building your strategy from a false base.

2nd last/9th last/5th last/8th last , you know those are the results from real NHL seasons, 82 games.

We certainly are a playoff bubble team.

We made the playoffs last year and were in a playoff position for most of this year. We also had a fair amount of key players go down this season like Bolland, Bernier and Clarkson have a dreadful season.

Parity is so widespread and the margin between between a playoff team and not is very thin.

We are a playoff bubble team just like the Senators, Caps, Blue Jackets, New Jersey, Detroit, Columbus are.

Once again I fully support a retool and this team being a seller of players like Lupul, Gunnarson, Gleason next season but even by selling these players we aren't anywhere nearly bad enough to compete with the likes of Florida or Buffalo or Calgary and potentially even Edmonton for the 1st overall pick.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Good luck dumping those contracts.

Teams don't have the room nor do they want those contracts, they are duds. Do you really thing anyone wants Clarkson? So now when our young guys come for a raise we don't the room, pure genius. Our prospect pool is shallow and we are missing many key pieces to win anything. The horrible design by Burke will manifest over the next 5 years as we lose anyways because we don't have the cheap fill in players better organizations have. This is one nasty super nova and is a testimony to the need to build right from the get go. It is beyond pathetic and someone in management needs to own up and say it. Burke "Bleeped up!" badly right from the get go.

 

[hotpaws]

Teams don't have the room nor do they want those contracts, they are duds. Do you really thing anyone wants Clarkson? So now when our young guys come for a raise we don't the room, pure genius. Our prospect pool is shallow and we are missing many key pieces to win anything. The horrible design by Burke will manifest over the next 5 years as we lose anyways because we don't have the cheap fill in players better organizations have. This is one nasty super nova and is a testimony to the need to build right from the get go. It is beyond pathetic and someone in management needs to own up and say it. Burke "Bleeped up!" badly right from the get go.

You're right but i don't see them ever admitting this.

I think they'll try to do some tinkering and give this group one more shot and if they fail even the minor achievement of qualifying for the playoffs then they'll make a more major renovation .

 

[ACC1224]

Teams don't have the room nor do they want those contracts, they are duds. Do you really thing anyone wants Clarkson? So now when our young guys come for a raise we don't the room, pure genius. Our prospect pool is shallow and we are missing many key pieces to win anything. The horrible design by Burke will manifest over the next 5 years as we lose anyways because we don't have the cheap fill in players better organizations have. This is one nasty super nova and is a testimony to the need to build right from the get go. It is beyond pathetic and someone in management needs to own up and say it. Burke "Bleeped up!" badly right from the get go.

Burke didn't sign Clarkson.

 

[Durrr]

The problem is we stopped adding? How do you add young first line players to your team? You pick them at the draft. We gave up 2 first round picks to get Kessel, we could have saved those picks and picked 2 players instead.

If you are rebuilding and just redone your scouting and just started to care about what happens with the Marlies would it not be better to add two of the best from draft class 2010 and 2011 then one of the best from the 2006 draft class?

And no, you dont build around an offensive minded winger, you just dont. You dont pass up on him if he is the BPA on draft day but you dont go out of your way to get him either.

That's such a dumb opinion around here, of course you can. You build around good players, period. Strength down the middle doesn't mean your instantly a good team, look at what just happened in SJ. It honestly doesn't matter what draft class the player is from, Kessel is a good player, and I would have no problem acquiring him as a core asset if he wasn't the only core asset we had or planned to have. Every other "core" asset we added after Kessel came as somewhat a fluke. Bottoming out for Rielly, JVR trade, Gardiner Trade, Bernier Trade etc, the management team's blueprint before these trades was a hideous failure. And yes, the problem is we stopped adding. I clearly wrote what you did later in my post, not sure if you even read it .

 

[ImpartialNHLfan]

Teams don't have the room nor do they want those contracts, they are duds. Do you really thing anyone wants Clarkson? So now when our young guys come for a raise we don't the room, pure genius. Our prospect pool is shallow and we are missing many key pieces to win anything. The horrible design by Burke will manifest over the next 5 years as we lose anyways because we don't have the cheap fill in players better organizations have. This is one nasty super nova and is a testimony to the need to build right from the get go. It is beyond pathetic and someone in management needs to own up and say it. Burke "Bleeped up!" badly right from the get go.

Burke never signed clarkson, and if he did it would not be over 5 years.

 

[rrc1967]

We certainly are a playoff bubble team.

We made the playoffs last year and were in a playoff position for most of this year. We also had a fair amount of key players go down this season like Bolland, Bernier and Clarkson have a dreadful season..

That's an excuse for a team that simply was not good enough for the majority of the season, and got lucky riding hot netminders and that made the team look far better than it was.

The leafs really didn't have much problem with injuries - bernier played 55 games, which is about where you could expect him, and i doubt he plays more than 60 games next season.

toronto lost 230 games due to injury. 17th in the league.

Pittsburg and detriot were 529 and 421 respectively - funny, they made the playoffs.