Post-Game Talk: Leafs Lose Pre-Season Opener... Darn That 2nd Liner Mitch Marner!

[LeafingTheWay]

The reason a lot of people on this board want to see Marner with Bozak is because we've seen in how well he worked with Kessel who was also a play making winger. Bozak was able to adapt to this role with Phil and let him carry the puck. He was able to read plays and open himself up to receive Phil's passes.

Bozak (and JVR for that matter) should be able to translate their experience of being Kessel's line mates and use it with Marner the same way.

Kessel was a different style though. Marner plays a possession game, while Kessel doesn't. Kessel excels with others who excel at the rush game (I.e Bozak, Hagelin, Bonino).

 

[Randy Randerson]

Was hoping to read about how the prospects did. Got some of that, but then was bombarded with Kadri/Bozak crap.

Kadri's spot is not in jeopardy. He's not playing to make the team. Honestly, who the hell really cares how he plays in Game 1 of the preseason in the first place? All I want from him is to make it out of the preseason healthy and in game shape...I couldn't care less about how he produces when the games don't matter.

If the argument is about Kadri/Bozak from last year, it shouldn't be cluttering up this thread IMO.

A couple of prospect-centric articles about last nights game:

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/2016/9/26/13067786/preseason-game-1-senators-6---maple-leafs-3

http://theleafsnation.com/2016/9/26/leafs-postgame-doesn-t-matter-got-marner

 

[LeafingTheWay]

The shot tracking might be imprecise, sure, but nowhere near so to accommodate your theory. I'll re-iterate, for Kadri to shoot as effectively as expected during that period the data would have been so imprecise that they barely managed to pinpoint the correct zone he's shooting from.

Furthermore, there has never been that strong of a correlation between great shooters and their shooting percentage. It's always been mainly about volume, not quality. The exceptions tend to be just that, and some of the best career shooting percentages have been from guys that are not known for their shot.

Then to the third point. Kadri has through his entire career been an effective shooter. We are supposed to throw that out the window because he has, in a much more limited sample size, the complete opposite happen? Which is the more likely to be accurate, what he's done since junior or what he did during 3 months?

Furthermore, for as long as this data has been collected, no player with a useable sample size has ever posted shooting percentage like Kadri did without heavy regression to the mean. What's more likely, that it'll be the same as every other case like this that happens every year, or that he's a historic exception?

I never claimed the data I used was perfect. It doesn't have to be to be vastly superior. It might mistake the fly for a mosquito, but you are trying to claim it's actually a jumbo jet. If the numbers Kadri put up in the beginning of last season was representative to his abilities and his decisions, he would be perhaps the least effective shooter in the league. Perhaps historically. No, that's not hyperbole. He'd be less than half as effective as Colton Orr.

Just take a step back and look at the two theories and ask yourself which is more likely. That Kadri is an average goalscorer going through an outlier, which happens to some players every year. Or that Kadri made a career of overachieving with his goalscoring and showed his true colors for 3 months as one of the worst goalscorers in the history of the league.

Great post

I wonder if Kadri had actually gotten his 60 points as he was supposed to, would people still argue that Kadri shouldn't be placed on Marner's line because he can't finish.

I dunno, to me it's a no-brainer between who to pair a possession beast like Marner with; either of our 2 possession-beast Cs, Matthews or Kadri.

 

[kb]

It's because you say stuff like that
Kadri passed to Marner numerous times, or at least from what I watched last night.

Watch again. It was confounding. And Kadri wasn't the only one.

 

[IBeL34f]

I can't seem to find any boxscore or stats from this game nor vid highlights. Is there any anywhere.

Ya'll praisin Mitch could you be lil more specific what was the best parts in his game and what requires the most work.

I loved his skating, decision-making (for the most part) and vision, as well as his involvement in the play.

He was working hard to break up plays and be a part of the play defensively, which was nice to see. There was a lot of talk about how great his 200-foot game was in the OHL, but seeing him bring it against tougher competition was very nice.

A lot of people have talked about his excellent edge-work, but watching it in action is something else. You see his mind and his feet working together, you can see him calculate the risks of an upcoming play and then adjust his feet accordingly to put himself in the best position to either attack and press the play, or to back up a teammate and provide some defensive support. He did this specifically on one play where he dropped the puck back to Brown after entering into Ottawa's zone, and then when Brown was pressured, you could see Marner try to decide what was more likely: that Brown would get the puck deeper into the zone to another Leaf, or that Brown would lose his play and Ottawa could grab possession, and then from there you see him get into position. It was unlike anything I'd really seen before. His hands, feet, and brain all seem to work at the same speed, and it's a real high gear.

He did have some sloppy plays. He left his zone early on a breakout, and the play was picked off by the Senators' D-man holding the blueline, and there was also an attempt to pinch that back-fired.

So I would say he needs to get more accustomed to what he can and can't pull off at the NHL level with regards to his positioning and where to step into the play and when to retreat. Standard maturation, really.

Beyond that, he has crazy amounts of skill, and he's obviously starting to get the confidence needed to at least try it at this level. Babcock will help him refine all of that in no time.

He was absolutely everywhere on the ice, and he was blowing passed opposing players constantly. His evasiveness is awesome, and if he keeps his head up (which he seems to do), he should be the kind of player that can translate his OHL skills to the Big Leagues. You know when you watch guys like McDavid or Crosby, how they always just seem to be near the puck? That's Marner. His positioning and hockey sense are already elite, in the sense that he goes towards the puck and suddenly it's on his stick. If a couple of guys are in the middle of a board battle, he'll get in there and come away with the puck. He just knows where he needs to be to get it on his stick.

Most impressive for me though was the fact that this was the best showing I've seen from him. I've had limited exposure, but I'd heard a lot of talk about how he hadn't yet shown the same Junior flashes in some of the bigger games. He showed plenty last night. Very promising game from him.

 

[1specter]

Was hoping to read about how the prospects did. Got some of that, but then was bombarded with Kadri/Bozak crap.

Kadri's spot is not in jeopardy. He's not playing to make the team. Honestly, who the hell really cares how he plays in Game 1 of the preseason in the first place? All I want from him is to make it out of the preseason healthy and in game shape...I couldn't care less about how he produces when the games don't matter.

If the argument is about Kadri/Bozak from last year, it shouldn't be cluttering up this thread IMO.

I said the exact same things already, but it went ignored with the same people 'demanding more' from Kadri in a meaningless pre-season game. There's a reason why pre season scoring is usually led by random players and young prospects rather than seasoned vets....

 

[Sypher04]

Watch again. It was confounding. And Kadri wasn't the only one.

Just because players weren't passing to Marner every play doesn't mean they were actively ignoring him as a pass option. Marner still received plenty of passes from the people he played with, Kadri included.

 

[IBeL34f]

Just because players weren't passing to Marner every play doesn't mean they were actively ignoring him as a pass option. Marner still received plenty of passes from the people he played with, Kadri included.

Yeah, there was only one time (on the PP, I believe) where I thought Kadri could have gotten a great feed over to Marner on the other side for an easy goal and didn't try it. Other than that, the lanes looked legitimately blocked.

 

[LeafingTheWay]

Watch again. It was confounding. And Kadri wasn't the only one.

I honestly think you were actively looking for every play to go through Marner, which shouldn't be the case. I watched carefully, and Kadri-Marner meshed IMO. They both individual efforts to free up space, and then pass it off. The Corrado 'goal' is a great example. Marner freed up space, then gave it to Kadri. Kadri then freed up space, and gave it to Corrado. Then Corrado shot and 'scored'.

 

[kb]

Just because players weren't passing to Marner every play doesn't mean they were actively ignoring him as a pass option. Marner still received plenty of passes from the people he played with.

As a player you are taught to find the open man and get him the puck, but there were several times where Marner was open and available yet the player (not going to name names because it was more than one) tried to stickhandle, force a shot that wasn't there or make a pass to another, covered player. Passing and not taking the shot makes you less of an advanced stats darling, but it is the smart and correct play.

 

[LeafsMonster]

The reason a lot of people on this board want to see Marner with Bozak is because we've seen in how well he worked with Kessel who was also a play making winger. Bozak was able to adapt to this role with Phil and let him carry the puck. He was able to read plays and open himself up to receive Phil's passes.

Bozak (and JVR for that matter) should be able to translate their experience of being Kessel's line mates and use it with Marner the same way.

Yeap and I understand that viewpoint. Bozak can play with the more skilled players, like he did with kessel, but kessel was more of a finisher than a playmaker and marner is the opposite. Marner looks for the pass. But again we won't know how well they play until they play together, or atleast I think each pairing should get a couple of looks because again even if bozak and marner don't gel right away it most likely is just them figuring out each others styles.

I completely forgot about matthews. And I think him and marner would be quite interesting together. I think they might complement each other most. But I don't think babcock will start them out together, but to be honest I see matthews moving up the lineup pretty fast so marner on his wing could be real dangerous.

 

[TLeafsFan]

I honestly think you were actively looking for every play to go through Marner, which shouldn't be the case. I watched carefully, and Kadri-Marner meshed IMO. They both individual efforts to free up space, and then pass it off. The Corrado 'goal' is a great example. Marner freed up space, then gave it to Kadri. Kadri then freed up space, and gave it to Corrado. Then Corrado shot and 'scored'.

No no no. You got it all wrong. Marner to Kadri to Corrado to the back of the net = no chemistry.

Geez what rock did you just crawl under.

 

[kb]

I honestly think you were actively looking for every play to go through Marner, which shouldn't be the case. I watched carefully, and Kadri-Marner meshed IMO. They both individual efforts to free up space, and then pass it off. The Corrado 'goal' is a great example. Marner freed up space, then gave it to Kadri. Kadri then freed up space, and gave it to Corrado. Then Corrado shot and 'scored'.

I never once said that Marner didn't pass to Kadri. I said the opposite. But for Kadri and Marner to have success, Kadri would have to adjust his game to where he carries the puck much less and look for his wingers earlier and more often, and not force shots that aren't there.

 

[kb]

No no no. You got it all wrong. Marner to Kadri to Corrado to the back of the net = no chemistry.

Geez what rock did you just crawl under.

Show me the Kadri to Marner plays. Or does Kadri not have to do that?

And thanks for proving my point that no suggestions or criticisms about Kadri are allowed.

 

[TLeafsFan]

Show me the Kadri to Marner plays. Or does Kadri not have to do that?

Has the season started yet? Or is this just the first game of TRAINING CAMP?

 

[LeafsMonster]

Show me the Kadri to Marner plays. Or does Kadri not have to do that?

And thanks for proving my point that no suggestions or criticisms about Kadri are allowed.

Criticism of kadri is absolutely allowed. But I saw numerous times kadri passed to or tried to pass to marner, sometimes it wouldn't reach as it was blocked or redirected. But I was especially paying attention when marner was on the ice and you could see kadri and marner looking for one another. If they didn't pass, itwas because the other was covered or there was a better option. I saw that more than I saw kadri ignoring or "refusing" to pass marner the puck.

If you want a specific example, look at the pp's when kadri and marner were on together. Kadri is constantly looking at marner and even passes to him a few times on the same pp.

 

[kb]

Has the season started yet? Or is this just the first game of TRAINING CAMP?

And here comes that ocean liner of excuses I mentioned before. For players to develop chemistry, don't you think if would be best if they both started figuring out how to make each other better as soon as possible, or should that just be left for the regular season? As in...it is pre-season, but you have an open man, maybe pass it to him sort of thing?

Or should one carry the puck to a fault and get hammered hard several times by ham and eggers trying to make a statement on the other team?

 

[bert]

I usually just lurk around here, but jeez some of the responses here are honestly hilarious after one fairly meaningless game that I couldn't help but reply.

1. Marner is a stud, and looked great tonight. He came to play and it's good to see him dominate. That being said, I would have been disappointed had he NOT stood out, as this will be the weakest competition he will likely face this pre-season. It would've been a bit worrisome if he hadn't been able to play well against mostly scrubs who will never be regular NHLers. Marner has to be 110% every game because unlike Nylander or Matthews his spot is not necessarily set in the stone the way theirs are. Some people went a bit overboard saying how he was the only good player or how nobody is worthy of him or that Kadri is a big dummy and bad linemate, which leads me to my next point.

2. Criticism of Kadri I know he's polarizing as hell around here (which is odd considering he's a very good player), but seriously come on. Take a step back, and seriously sit down and do a reality check. Read and think about the answer to the following questions, objectively:

Do you seriously believe that Kadri was playing at his full capability tonight, or playing anywhere near his best, at full intensity?

Does Kadri have any incentive to go hard and be the hero or be a standout star player, when he's playing with AND against mostly AHL fodder?

Is Kadri's role in any sort of jeopardy?

To me, it was evident that he was taking it easy (like, less than 75%), and kind of having some fun and being a little selfish because he could, cause he can't exactly do this kind of stuff when the actual season is underway. Why risk injury and go hard to try and be a hero in a worthless game, when your spot is solidified? As the pre-season goes on and more guys get cut and the rosters start to shape up, I fully expect him to ramp up his play to a more serious level. Kadri just got a long-term extension, and has been given the keys in terms of the top matchups and assignments, his job is 100% safe. With the team finally getting an influx of talent, I expect him to have a great season. Looking back, this is very ironic because not too long ago it was Kadri who was the hungry young guy in pre-season, trying to crack the roster and people were complaining that he was stuck playing with inferior talent.

3. Trying to predict where Marner is gonna play. Nobody knows this, he may not even make the team, so saying definitively (not speculating, but speaking as if its fact) he is gonna play with Bozak or Kadri or Laich or whoever else is stupid. Nobody knows, that's what camp is for, to figure out what works and what doesn't. Furthermore, it's idiotic to say that him and Kadri will somehow not work together, or that Bozak would be a much better fit. I am not sure who he will have better chemistry with, but I do not see any reason why he can't succeed with Kadri. Saying Kadri is a puck hog and selfish is inaccurate, because his best asset is his playmaking, and all season long he fed Komarov and Grabner some great passes but Komarov could only convert occasionally while Grabner was a frustrating black hole. Marner would actually be a solid fit with Kadri, because Kadri thinks the game at a high level in the offensive zone, and has the skill to pull off some ridiculous moves that few players can do; for years Kadri has had terrible linemates and Marner would be one of the few high skilled guys he's gotten to play with. He will be able to keep up with Marner, and if anything, he will help Marner facilitate the use of his shot more, as Marner has a great shot and Kadri can set him up well. Skilled players find ways to work together.

At this point I am just happy that Marner has made a lot of progress since this same time one year ago, and I hope that he can continue to play this way for the rest of the pre-season and earn his spot on the team.

This is a very good post.

OTT fans seem to think Marner tops out at a 2nd line forward, but then again, their best forward is Kyle Turris, so I'm not sure Sens forwards know a higher caliber even exists

This is not. Everyone knows Marner is elite. To insult an entire fan base when you dont even know who the best forward on the team is pretty ironic.

 

[Cor]

JVR - Bozak - Brown
Komarov - Kadri - Marner
Martin - Matthews - Nylander
Hyman - Laich - Soshnikov
Michalek

Waivers: Greening

Could see Michalek traded as well

 

[Cor]

This is a very good post.



This is not. Everyone knows Marner is elite. To insult an entire fan base when you dont even know who the best forward on the team is pretty ironic.

Says the one criticizing a post made purely for humor on its legitimacy

 

[kb]

Criticism of kadri is absolutely allowed. But I saw numerous times kadri passed to or tried to pass to marner, sometimes it wouldn't reach as it was blocked or redirected. But I was especially paying attention when marner was on the ice and you could see kadri and marner looking for one another. If they didn't pass, itwas because the other was covered or there was a better option. I saw that more than I saw kadri ignoring or "refusing" to pass marner the puck.

If you want a specific example, look at the pp's when kadri and marner were on together. Kadri is constantly looking at marner and even passes to him a few times on the same pp.

OK, this is a fair interpretation. However, I saw at least 2 or 3 occasions when Marner was wide open and calling for the puck, and there was an open lane. I did not see a completed pass all game from K to M, and I saw Kadri throw it to areas in front of the net on the PP more than at the player - mostly centering the puck to the front of the net while Marner was on the back side.

I just feel that either one or both of Kadri and Marner will have to change their games significantly to adjust to each other. The both like the puck on their stick, and that would diminish the effectiveness of either player if they had to change who they are to fit in the the other. Which is an issue and has been for Kadri playing with other good players who need the puck on their stick to be effective.

Good post.

 

[ACC1224]

OK, this is a fair interpretation. However, I saw at least 2 or 3 occasions when Marner was wide open and calling for the puck, and there was an open lane. I did not see a completed pass all game from K to M, and I saw Kadri throw it to areas in front of the net on the PP more than at the player - mostly centering the puck to the front of the net while Marner was on the back side.

I just feel that either one or both of Kadri and Marner will have to change their games significantly to adjust to each other. The both like the puck on their stick, and that would diminish the effectiveness of either player if they had to change who they are to fit in the the other. Which is an issue and has been for Kadri playing with other good players who need the puck on their stick to be effective.

Good post.

Things can look a lot different from the tv perspective.

 

[kb]

Things can look a lot different from the tv perspective.

Definitely. This was what my friend who was at the game told me directly. I only saw it on TV. He's a huge Kadri fan, and I was shocked to hear him say he was annoyed with him at times But he said that Kadri got better late in the game, and I also would have to agree with that.

 

[LeafsMonster]

OK, this is a fair interpretation. However, I saw at least 2 or 3 occasions when Marner was wide open and calling for the puck, and there was an open lane. I did not see a completed pass all game from K to M, and I saw Kadri throw it to areas in front of the net on the PP more than at the player - mostly centering the puck to the front of the net while Marner was on the back side.

I just feel that either one or both of Kadri and Marner will have to change their games significantly to adjust to each other. The both like the puck on their stick, and that would diminish the effectiveness of either player if they had to change who they are to fit in the the other. Which is an issue and has been for Kadri playing with other good players who need the puck on their stick to be effective.

Good post.

Yeah I think a lot of people have that concern and it is justified. I agree both of them play the style where they want the puck most of the time and that might not allow the other to be effective. That remains to be seen. There are so many combinations possible that I really think regardless of style its going to come down to player comfort and chemistry and the chemistry sometimes takes time to develop.

No matter where marner, nylander or matthews slot in the beginning I think we'll see a lot of rearranging throughout the season because someone, maybe all 3, is bound to struggle and get moved so I think we'll get to see them play will a variety of players. And at the end of the day, once the feeling out process is done I truly believe when the season gets going no matter who they are playing with, these 3 are skilled enough to make any combination work.

 

[Mess]

First exhibition over and this thread is full.

Use the open threads to continue any other related talk.

/Closed