Post-Game Talk: Leafs lose in OT 3-2

[Budsfan]

 

[Hurt]

Sorry, no narrative here. I don't agree with everything Babcock does. For example, I thought they should have rotated energy forwards in and out of the lineup during the 5-in-7 at the end of the season, I don't really see why Martin needs to be in the lineup right now, and I think he leans on Hunlak too much (although they each did pretty well playing in the top four last night.)

What I am responding to is the arrogance with which people criticize Babcock. If you're a good chess player, feel free to analyze a grandmaster's game. But if you don't even know how the pieces move, as the logical absurdity in the post I was responding to suggests, you probably shouldn't say too much.

To address your points more directly, like so many other posts on here, you have analyzed how the line swap would affect the Matthews line, but not how it would affect the other lines, so right off the bat you're only looking at half the picture. Additionally, you haven't spoken to Babcock's preference for pairing up rather than trio-ing up offensive players, or the fact that Matthews actually seems to produce better at ES when he plays a north-south game, for example when Brown is on the line. Then there's the fact that he lead the league in ES goals as a rookie. There's also the salary cap to be considered - playing Hyman with Matthews instead of, let's say Landeskog (who would be amazing with Matthews) frees up enough cap room for a good defenceman.

I don't love Hyman with Matthews. I would like to see Leivo out there with him. He's got some grit and pucks seem to go in the other team's net a lot when he's out there. But if you're going to criticize a grandmaster, please remember that they do make mistakes but they don't make blunders, recognize that it's quite possible that you're also human and *gasp* perhaps it's you who is making the mistake, and critique with a little humility.

This comment reeks of pretentiousness. My eyes rolled so far back in my head that I threw up a little. 'They don't make blunders', 'Critique with a little humility'. That is probably one of the funniest things I've read on these forums, ever. .

Moving past this inane Babcock worship, there are so many random theoretical 'ifs' in this comment that I don't even know where to start. Does it really matter how it would 'affect the other line' (i.e. the 3rd or 4th line, where Hyman belongs?) The primary concern should be having a winger that can actually be a threat on the Matthews line so Matthews and Nylander have an option instead of Stonehands Hyman.

Hyman is worse than Martin in G/60 (and tied with All Star and another one of Babs' favourite players, Ben Smith), he IS getting looks but is completely unable to translate them as he's 8th on the team in S/60 but only managed 10 goals (5th if you take out Boyle, Kapanen and Leivo who didn't play regular minutes the whole season). His iCorsi/60 was some of the lowest on the team amongst players who played regular minutes and he had fourth liner numbers for IPP.

Forget the basic stats listed above that anyone can comprehend, look at the good old "Eye Test". Period after period, game after game, plays die on Hyman's stick. He goes for the patented wraparound and misses, he skates the puck to the net, shoots and misses, he handles the puck like a grenade and seems surprised that two elite talents are passing him the puck when he's wide open. He had a single digit shot% (again, outclassed by Ben Smith and Matt Martin), and he had the least takeaways on his line for someone who's supposed to excel at that. In fact, for someone who's supposed to be aggressive on the forecheck, he barely had more hits than Soshnikov who played what 25 games less than him?

Does this all add up to a 'blunder' by Babcock? Looks like it, but then again, I'm not a 'grandmaster'.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

fun fact

marincin has godlike advanced stats

And that's why I don't believe in advanced stats because they just lie when it comes to Marincin

 

[Dirty Dan]

I think Babcock is the reason we lost.

If he replaced Hyman with Leivo and Marincin with Marchenko, we could have won that game. That would have given us the edge we needed.

Unfortunately, our coach is a complete moron who is getting a free pass because everyone thinks he is some sort of genius.

It's amazing how well we've done despite Babcock's horrible line combos and roster decisions. Martin is another guy who should probably be sitting on the bench until he is needed.

Leaf fans were told that the organization was putting a lot of emphasis on advanced stats and we hired guys like Dubas who is supposed to be making smart decisions. Yet we somehow still end up with Hyman (barely an AHL quality player) playing with our best player and arguably our second best player.

Babcock should be fired. He is screwing up what has the potential to be a very good team. Any other coach in the league would have tried moving Hyman away from Matthews by now.

Leivo or kapanen would be better with matthews than hyman. we need all the firepower we can get

we are not going to shutdown the caps we need 4 goals

 

[TheTotalPackage]

The disappointing takeaway from the game is that it was ripe for the Leafs' taking, and then couldn't get it done. The way Washington started out the series for the first 10 minutes is exactly what you would have expected from the Leafs -- down 2, overwhelmed, bad defensively, slow, stumbling all over the place, unable to generate chances, etc. The Leafs looked like the veteran team while the Capitals were awestruck from the big lights. Now the Leafs are down 1 after having the Capitals likely playing the worst game of the series.

I missed the overtime, but after watching the highlights, that was a brutal goal for Andersen to give up. Great shot by Wilson, but there is no way a goal like that should be going in on a wrister from the half boards. Shame too because Andersen was excellent pretty much the whole game, save that second goal.

 

[stickty111]

For sure they would be last overall to cup favourites with any other Coach.

He misses Frattin. He is going through a rough time.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

At the end of the day, there's a reason why the likes of Mike Babcock, Zach Hyman, and Martin Marincin are employed by the NHL (the world's best hockey league), and why all of you bashing these guys as "the reason the Leafs are losing" are sitting behind your computers writing about them. Let the boys play, and the man coach, and enjoy the fact that you are able to watch your team play past game 82.

Yes but they are just men, they will NOT be 100% right, 100% of the time and they are NOT immune to criticism and when Marincin is the main reason the team lost, and he is he deserves criticism

 

[stickty111]

Lets see we just took the cup favorites to the brink in game 1 and here is a poster saying to fire Babcock? Good thing we have management who wont do something silly like that.

 

[swint]

Yes but they are just men, they will NOT be 100% right, 100% of the time and they are NOT immune to criticism and when Marincin is the main reason the team lost, and he is he deserves criticism

Have you ever played hockey? When you lose a game do you turn to a single player and all point your finger at that guy for ****ing it for the rest of you? No. It's a team sport. Win as a team, lose as a team. Regardless of what players are on the ice, they are all Maple Leafs, and if the Maple Leafs lose, it's because they did not play well enough as a team to beat those who laced em up opposite from them.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Have you ever played hockey? When you lose a game do you turn to a single player and all point your finger at that guy for ****ing it for the rest of you? No. It's a team sport. Win as a team, lose as a team. Regardless of what players are on the ice, they are all Maple Leafs, and if the Maple Leafs lose, it's because they did not play well enough as a team to beat those who laced em up opposite from them.

Except Marincin was the DIRECT cause of both tying and winning goal, that is not opinion that's fact watch the highlights again you'll notice it.

 

[Polaris1010]

Kristen Shilton
✔
@kristen_shilton

JVR on @Bozie42's seven hits last night: "I almost had to a double-take there. That might have doubled his hits for the whole year."
1:28 PM - 14 Apr 2017

1. Bozak played good to alright last night. As the series continues, try to figure out a way to break through the Capitals checking.

2. Well look, if a girl is repeating this kind of stuff ... c'mon Bozzie ...

 

[swint]

Except Marincin was the DIRECT cause of both tying and winning goal, that is not opinion that's fact watch the highlights again you'll notice it.

Williams and Wilson were the reasons the Caps scored the tying and winning goals

 

[Unbiased]

I have no shame in saying this, the Matthews line would be better if they just left the left wing spot empty and played short handed than if Hyman was in. It's a travesty that were wasting a chance at this playoff series to reward hard work instead of hard work+talent. The guy is supposed to be this "puck retrieval demon" but whenever I watch him play he seldomly gets the puck and when he touches the puck his pass percentage is usually 0%. I have no problem having him on the 4th line but why are we wasting a top 9 spot for this guy when we have so much more talent who not only can do exactly what he does (Leivo, Kapanen, Soshnikov) but also play an offensive game 10x better then him? Absolute joke.

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

I think it's important to remember there are a lot of guys on this team not by design but necessity at this point. Marincin/Marchanko/Hunwick/Polak/Hyman and to a lesser extent, Martin and possibly Bozak/JVR (If they can't step up in the playoffs this year I think the likelihood of them getting moved increases by a lot).

I'm not saying they are all bad players but they will ideally be phased out over the next few years by better players, until then we just have to deal with the bad plays here and there that cost the team.

To Marincin's credit, it was his first game in a month and only his 5th game in 2017, in that context he wasn't bad at all. I still would have played Marchanko over him though but I don't get paid to make the decisions.

Agreed WRT Marincin. It's not like we had another option available who would have been much better.

I'm a little surprised at your comment on JVR/Bozak. Only 4 Leafs players picked up a point last night and they were two of them. Bozak with 7 hits too. Those two guys have been pretty good all month leading into the playoffs. We'll see what happens, but I think they've made a conscious decision to step up and lead.

Anyways, now that the sting of the loss has worn off a bit, last night was pretty amazing. We very nearly beat a much better team, and it reinforces my belief that the Leafs that finished the season are a much better team than the one that began the season - so we're actually much more closely matched to the Caps than the standings showed.

 

[francis246]

Except Marincin was the DIRECT cause of both tying and winning goal, that is not opinion that's fact watch the highlights again you'll notice it.

you watch the highlights again with out the stupid that's hockey tonight bias & you'll realize that marincin actually did not cost us the game. Have you ever played hockey before? What do they teach you to do when you're in trouble? High off the glass and out. That's what he did.. high enough so it's not a penalty. Wilson got up and kept the puck in. Andersen HAS TO MAKE THAT SAVE.

Again on the 2nd goal, Marincin literally stuck with his man. One of the wingers left Justin Williams wide open. Probably because they thought that shot would be a routine save.

I get people are angry that we lost but stop blaming Marincin for **** he didn't go. This game isn't on him and in fact in played really well. People are so stupid on this board. Probably have never played a game of hockey in their life but yet have so much to offer in terms of analysis from behind a key board.

 

[PuckMagi]

He misses Frattin. He is going through a rough time.

Frattin > Hyman

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Williams and Wilson were the reasons the Caps scored the tying and winning goals

Marincin handed them those chances on a golden plate

 

[LeafsNation75]

If anyone cares last night after the game it was Patrick O'Sullivan blaming Marincin for the game winning goal.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

you watch the highlights again with out the stupid that's hockey tonight bias & you'll realize that marincin actually did not cost us the game. Have you ever played hockey before? What do they teach you to do when you're in trouble? High off the glass and out. That's what he did.. high enough so it's not a penalty. Wilson got up and kept the puck in. Andersen HAS TO MAKE THAT SAVE.

Again on the 2nd goal, Marincin literally stuck with his man. One of the wingers left Justin Williams wide open. Probably because they thought that shot would be a routine save.



I get people are angry that we lost but stop blaming Marincin for **** he didn't go. This game isn't on him and in fact in played really well. People are so stupid on this board. Probably have never played a game of hockey in their life but yet have so much to offer in terms of analysis from behind a key board.

he does have to make that save but Marincin had a few options and he chose the worst one and it cost us. had he done almost anythig else than what he did that shot doesn't get taken nd the gol doesn't happen.

the only reason I hope Vegas doesn't take Marincin is because he's cheaper than Fehr but if they did take MaincinI wouldn't be shedding any teas to say the least

 

[Hurt]

you watch the highlights again with out the stupid that's hockey tonight bias & you'll realize that marincin actually did not cost us the game. Have you ever played hockey before? What do they teach you to do when you're in trouble? High off the glass and out. That's what he did.. high enough so it's not a penalty. Wilson got up and kept the puck in. Andersen HAS TO MAKE THAT SAVE.

Again on the 2nd goal, Marincin literally stuck with his man. One of the wingers left Justin Williams wide open. Probably because they thought that shot would be a routine save.

I get people are angry that we lost but stop blaming Marincin for **** he didn't go. This game isn't on him and in fact in played really well. People are so stupid on this board. Probably have never played a game of hockey in their life but yet have so much to offer in terms of analysis from behind a key board.

Except they don't really teach that anymore. There's a much larger focus on skating and getting the puck up the ice. To say that Marincin played 'really well' is obscene, to me. He played average away from the puck but once he has the puck? Help us all.

Hopefully Zaitsev is okay sooner rather than later. Marincin is just a stopgap until we get something better and I highly doubt he's part of the future plans on this team.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Hopefully Zaitsev is okay sooner rather than later. Marincin is just a stopgap until we get something better and I highly doubt he's part of the future plans on this team.

According to this Zaitsev is out for Game 2.

 

[PuckMagi]

Except they don't really teach that anymore. There's a much larger focus on skating and getting the puck up the ice. To say that Marincin played 'really well' is obscene, to me. He played average away from the puck but once he has the puck? Help us all.

Hopefully Zaitsev is okay sooner rather than later. Marincin is just a stopgap until we get something better and I highly doubt he's part of the future plans on this team.

We do have someone better.

Marchenko
Dermott

Babcock is just an idiot and decides to play Marincin for some unknown reason.

A few days ago, I said that we would be alright without Zeitzev as long as we use Marchenko and Dermott. I said that we would be in trouble if we lost Polak and had to use Marincin. But we didn't lose any other defenders and still went with Marincin (even though he plays on the left).

 

[BertCorbeau]

We do have someone better.

Marchenko
Dermott

Babcock is just an idiot and decides to play Marincin for some unknown reason.

A few days ago, I said that we would be alright without Zeitzev as long as we use Marchenko and Dermott. I said that we would be in trouble if we lost Polak and had to use Marincin. But we didn't lose any other defenders and still went with Marincin (even though he plays on the left).

Maybe if you coached the players every day you would have a better understanding as to why

But no.. Babcock is an idiot because "reasons"

 

[Polaris1010]

fun fact

marincin has godlike advanced stats

If Marincin can play like he's in god-mode, he is the savoir of Toronto Maple Leafs hockey!! Someone gotta tell him those cheat codes immediately before he's benched again!!

Veering completely off topic, an article in Bloomberg today about statistical studies and the problems encountered.

Statistical Significance Is Overrated
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-04-13/statistical-significance-is-overrated

 

[egd27]

Still can't close out a win after leading by 2 goals

LOL......close out a game with 50 minutes to go? Hoping that was sarcasm.